Subject: Re: Poet in "Tangled Up..." On Wed, 19 Jul 1995 01:38:25 GMT on rec.music.dylan you wrote: > Just a short double-edged question; please respond by email if you can. > Apologies if this is a FAQ: > > a) In "Tangled Up In Blue", is this a "poet from the 13th century" > or "15th"? > b) Did Dylan ever comment---or are there educated guesses---as to who > the poet is? > > Dante's too early for that timeframe, I think, but I could be wrong. On the original album recording, on "Blood On The Tracks", 1975, Dylan sings 13th Century. That's probably all you wanted to know but if you're looking for a full answer you'll be interested in the many variations on these particular lines and the insight they provide. Dylan tells us who he thinks the poet is in a 1978 interview, included below after the lyric extracts. Be warned though, you can't always trust what he has to say about his own songs :-) I am no expert on poets of the 13th Century but I have searched the archives and come up with an old rec.music.dylan thread on this very subject. This is included after interview extract. ------------------------------ ORIGINAL ALBUM RECORDING: She lit a burner on the stove and offered me a pipe "I thought you'd never say hello," she said "You look like the silent type." Then she opened up a book of poems And handed it to me Written by an Italian poet From the thirteenth century. And every one of them words rang true And glowed like burnin' coal Pourin' off of every page Like it was written in my soul from me to you, Tangled up in blue. -- Source: 15 November 1978, Forum, Inglewood, California, USA. Then she opened up a book of poems And she started quotin' it to me It was either written by Charles Baudelaire Or some poem from the 13 century -- Source: 23 November 1978, Lloyd Noble Center, Norman, Oklahoma, USA. It was either written by Charles Baudelaire Or some Italian poem from the 13th century -- Source: 2 December 1978, Municipal Auditorium, Nashville, Tennessee, USA. Then she opened up the Bible And she started quotin' it to me Jeremiah, (??), Chapters 1 & 33 -- Source: 9 December 1978, Carolina Coliseum, Columbia, South Carolina, USA. Then she opened up the Bible And she started quotin' it to me Jeremiah, chapters 32, Verses (21 & 33) -- Source: 10 December 1978, Charlotte Coliseum, Charlotte, North Carolina, USA. "You know, you look like you could be the silent type" And she opened up the Bible And she started quoting it to me Jeremiah, chapter 17, From verses 21 and 33 -- Source: 12 December 1978, The Omni, Atlanta, Georgia, USA. Then she opened up the Bible And she started quotin' it to me Jeramiah, chapters 37 (& 38,) Verses 29 & 33 -- Source: 13 December 1978, The Coliseum, Jacksonville, Florida, USA. She lit a burner on the stove She was wearing a housecoat made out of stars and stripes "Thought you'd forgot how to-know how to say," she said "You look like the silent type." Then she opened up the Bible And she started quotin' it to me Jeramiah, chapters 10 & 20, Verses 21 & 33 -- Source: 15 December 1978, Civic Center, Lakeland, Florida, USA. She was dressed in a dress had stars and stripes "Thought you'd never say hello," she said "You know, you look like you could be the silent type." Then she opened up the Bible And she started quotin' it to me Jeremiah, chapters 36, Verses 21 & 33 -- Source: 16 December 1978, Hollywood Sportatorium, Hollywood, Florida [=Miami?], USA. This was the last performance before the "Gospel era". She was wearing a housecoat made of stars and stripes "Thought you'd never say hello," she said "You know, you look like you could be the silent type." Then she opened up the Bible And she started quotin' it to me Jeremiah, chapter 31, Verses 9 to 33 -- All the following performances omit this verse altogether! Source: 4 June 1984, Sportpaleis Ahoy, Rotterdam, The Netherlands. This was the first post-Gospel performance. Source: 9 June 1984, Ullevi Stadion, Gothenburg, Sweden. Source: 11 June 1984, Stadion Bierberer Berg, Offenbach, West Germany (as it then was). Source: 13 June 1984, Waldbuhne, West-Berlin, West Germany (as it then was). Source: 19 June 1984, Roma Palaeur, Rome, Italy. Source: "Real Live", 29 November 1984 (performed 7 July 1984, Wembley Stadium, London, England). Source: 8 July 1984, Slane Castle, Slane, Ireland. -- In recent years, Dylan has reverted to the original "Blood On The Tracks" verse (poet from 13th Century). ========================================================================== BOB DYLAN QUOTATION Craig McGregor interview. Brisbane Festival Hall, Brisbane, Australia 12 March 1978. Published in New Musical Express on 22 April 1978. [They are discussing "Tangled Up In Blue"] Dylan: I like that song. Yeah, that poet from the 13th Century. McGregor: Who was that? Dylan: Plutarch. Is that his name? McGregor: Yeah. [tino@leland.stanford.edu: "Dylan says he is not sure about the name but he thinks it is Plutarch. This is obviously wrong (Plutarch lived in Greece from 50-120) but it's pretty close to Petrarch."]Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 23:10:00 +0800
DISCUSSION FROM REC.MUSIC.DYLAN. Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:34:38 EDT From: Maureen Leblanc (turning_pt@UMBSKY.CC.UMB.EDU) Subject: Re: Help the Man in the Box Routhier@world.std.com (William Routhier) In Message-ID:wrote: >David Gonzalez (CHRV32A@prodigy.com) wrote: >: Fellow Dylan fans, >: Having lived in a box my entire life, I just don't have the wordly >: knowledge to figue out the answers to two Dylan lyric questions that >: plague me. Please send your knowledge contribution to me: >: 1) In Tangled, who is the 13th centruty Italian peot whose words all ring >: true? [...] >: Thanks in advance and remember, knowledge is tax deductible.... >: Dave Gonzalez >: CHRV32A@prodigy.com > Dave... cardboard or wood? Just curious. >The poet could have been Dante, although Dante crossed the century into >the 1300's, (the 14 century.) [...] >BRouthier Just flipping through Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (Sixteenth Edition, ISBN 0-316-08277-5) and came across: Tommaso di Celano, c.1185 - c.1255 Bartlett's quotes from his _Dies Irae_ (Wrath of God) and hoo boy if this doesn't sound like Bob, I don't know what does. "Day of wrath! O day of mourning! See fulfilled the prophet warning, Heaven and earth in ashes burning!" Hope this helps ;-) Maureen
From: dsage@uoguelph.ca (David Sage) Subject: Re: Help the Man in the Box Date: 6 Feb 1995 02:24:03 GMT It's Dante, if it's a 13th century poet. Dante was the first to write in vernacular and was tossed out of Florence for allying himself with the wrong group of politicians. He spent the last part of his life in exile. He fits the profile...aside from the fact that HIS verse rings loudly in a lot of Dylan's work. (And everyone elses) Besides, as Heike will attest, I remain unconvinced that he is even saying "13th century," I believe it sounds like he might be saying "15th century" on the original album track. If that is the case it opens the field up a little more; it could be Petrarch or even Boccaccio in that case. David. ------------------------------------------ w.o.t.s. dsage@uoguelph.ca
From: plong@netcom.com (Phillip Long) Subject: Re: Help the Man in the Box Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 06:35:17 GMT David Sage (dsage@uoguelph.ca) wrote: : It's Dante, if it's a 13th century poet. Dante was the first to write in : vernacular and was tossed out of Florence for allying himself with the : wrong group of politicians. I also thought that the Real Live version (or some tape I have heard) says "Italian Poet", which does narrow it a bit more. I had a friend once that was convinced he'd found the passage the Dylan was talking about, it was in Purgatory, I think.... Someting about love, and fit the song very well. Phil -- Phil plong@netcom.com Disclaimer: ...no one can sing the blues Like Blind Willie McTell
From: wissolik@max.chatham.edu Subject: bd and 13th century poet Reply-To: wissolik@max.chatham.edu Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 18:19:48 GMT the poet is probably Dante, though in variants bd uses 15th century. dante is the most obvious choice for the one becasue of his influence on dylan. You can follow the references in Bob Dylan's Words. dick wissolik
From: i'm-a-stanford-student@leland.stanford.edu (I'm a Stanford student) Subject: Re: bd and 13th century poet Date: 7 Feb 1995 04:16:34 GMT In article, wissolik@max.chatham.edu wrote: > > the poet is probably Dante, though in variants bd uses 15th > century. dante is the most obvious choice for the one becasue > of his influence on dylan. You can follow the references in > Bob Dylan's Words. dick wissolik Another option would be Petrarch (although 1304-1374). And the book? Of course the wonderful 'Laura Poems' - definetely "written in my soul from me to you". In one of his 1978 interviews (sorry, I don't remember exactly which one) Dylan says he is not sure about the name but he thinks it is Plutarch. This is obviously wrong (Plutarch lived in Greece from 50-120) but it's pretty close to Petrarch. tino@leland.stanford.edu
From: eddie@edlis.org (Ed Ricardo) Subject: Re: Help the Man in the Box Date: 8 Feb 1995 14:13:11 GMT Dylan thought that a new creative phase began with "Blood on the Tracks," and in the following sense: "Everybody agrees that was pretty different, and what's different about it is there's a code in the lyrics and also there's no sense of time. There's no respect for it: You've got yesterday, today and tomorrow all in the same room, and there's very little you can't imagine not happening." Radical love songs that reported upon the darkness "within" and spun visions of what might have been. Reports from Dylan's own innermost homeland: that of Brecht, Rimbaud, Villon, and ... Dante: "Then she opened up a book of poems/And handed it to me/Written by an Italian poet/From the thirteenth century/And every one of them words rang true/And glowed like burning' coal/Pourin'off of every page/Like it was written in my soul from me to you/Tangled up in blue..." Dante's Divine Comedy yet again reannimated: "Love is all there is/it makes the world go round". >From heaven to hell, via the earth: It takes a lot to laugh, it takes a train to cry. "Now the wintertime is coming./The windows are filled with frost./I went to tell everybody,/But I could not get across./Well, I wanna be your lover baby,/I don't wanna be your boss./Don't say I never warned you/ When your train gets lost." -- Nicole Stratman
From: i'm-a-stanford-student@leland.stanford.edu (I'm a Stanford student) Subject: Re: bd and 13th century poet Date: 8 Feb 1995 23:45:32 GMT i'm-a-stanford-student@leland.stanford.edu (I'm a Stanford student) wrote: wissolik@max.chatham.edu wrote: > > > > > the poet is probably Dante, though in variants bd uses 15th > > century. dante is the most obvious choice for the one becasue > > of his influence on dylan. You can follow the references in > > Bob Dylan's Words. dick wissolik > > Another option would be Petrarch (although 1304-1374). And the book? > Of course the wonderful 'Laura Poems' - definetely "written in my soul from > me to you". > > In one of his 1978 interviews (sorry, I don't remember exactly which one) > Dylan says he is not sure about the name but he thinks it is Plutarch. This > is obviously wrong (Plutarch lived in Greece from 50-120) but it's pretty > close to Petrarch. > > tino@leland.stanford.edu PS: It's the Craig McGregor interview in "Bob Dylan - A Retrospective. Ed. by Craig McGregor. Revised Edition. London 1980." Page 235.
From: mg@asp.camb.inmet.com (Mitch Gart) Subject: Re: bd and 13th century poet Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 13:08:18 GMT wissolik@max.chatham.edu wrote: : the poet is probably Dante, though in variants bd uses 15th : century. dante is the most obvious choice for the one becasue : of his influence on dylan. You can follow the references in : Bob Dylan's Words. dick wissolik Soon after the release of Blood on the Tracks there was a long, very positive, very well written review in Rolling Stone by Jonathan Cott. At the end of the review he quoted several lines "written by an Italian poet ... pouring off the page ... written in my soul" followed by several lines from a Dante poem. So evidently Cott also thought the reference was to Dante, or at least thought of Dante as the most likely candidate. Mitch Gart
From: stinky1000@aol.com (Stinky1000) Subject: Re: bd and 13th century poet Date: 23 Feb 1995 00:02:32 -0500 Reply-To: stinky1000@aol.com (Stinky1000) It's gotta be dante. The "glowed like burning coal" line being a reference to the Inferno. ------------------------------ ============================================================================== END
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 09:21:00 +0800 From: Matthew Zuckerman (matthew.zuckerman@IAC-ONLINE.COM) Subject: Italian Poet from the 13th Century Dante is a prime candidate for the $@RI (Jtalian poet from the 13th centurysince his dates are 1265-1321, but there is one more. - On March 12, 1978, Craig McGregor interviewed Dylan in Australia, and the following exchange occurred: - Craig; I've always thought 'Tangled Up in Blue' was a great song. I really like it. Dylan : Yeah, I like that one too. Craig : Without knowing anything about it, I half assumed that Blue might be Joan Baez. Dylan : Joni Mitchell had an album out called 'Blue'. And it affected me, I couldn't get it out of my head. And it just stayed in my head and when I wrote that song I wondered, what's that mean ? And then I figured that it was just there, and I guess that's what happened, y'know. Craig : It's not the same 'blue' as in 'it's all over now baby blue' ? Dylan : No, no. That's a different blue. That's a character right off the haywagon. That Baby Blue is from right upstairs at the barber shop, y'know off the street.......... a different baby blue, I haven't run into her in a long time, long time. Craig : You're being serious ? Dylan : Yeah, I've never looked at Joan Baez as being Baby Blue. Craig : Do you see much of her these days ? Dylan : (pause) She was on two tours with me. I haven't seen her since then. She went to Europe. Craig : You involved in her ? Dylan : No, No ......... Craig : Listening to 'tangled up in blue', I got the feeling, it's like an autobiography; a sort of funny, wry, compressed novel...... Dylan : Yeah, that's the first I ever wrote that I felt free enough to change all the ......what is it, the tenses around, is that what it is ? Craig : the person.... Dylan : The he and the she and the I and the you, and the we and the us-- I figured it was all the same anyway-- I could throw them all in where they floated right-- and it works on that level. Craig : Its got those nice lines at the end, about ' there was music in the cafes at night and revolution in the air' and ' some are mathematicians, some are carpenters wives, I don't know how it all got started, I don't know what they do with their lives'. Dylan : I like that song. Yeah that poet from the 13th century.... Craig : Who was that ? Dylan : Plutarch. Is that his name ? Craig : Yeah. Are there a lot of dylanologists around still in the states ? Dylan : I don't pay much attention to that. I get over-enthusiastic fans. But I never did pay much mind to that. - Plutarch was a Greek historian (46-c120 A.D.) so this was obviously a slip on Dylan $@Us (J part. The transcription of the interview is correct according to $@RT (Jhe fiddler now upspoke volume one of the complete Dylan interviews edited by Dr. Flith (!). - Dylan presumably meant to say Petrarch, an Italian poet who was born in 1304, just four years out of the 13th century. The following account ("Reader's Companion to World Literature" by Hornstein, Percy, Brown Mentor/Penguin Group ISBN: 0-451-62816-0) of Petrach's verse (dedicated to Laura, the love of his life) could quite easily be describing Blood On The Tracks. - "... his primary poetic theme is hopeless love, a spiritualized passion for the unattainable. Through most of his life, Petrarch kept writing and rearranging the verses for Laura in Life and Laura in Death, a total of 366 poems. They are in varied forms. The sonnets, which form the majority, have been described as the most polished verses in western European literature. There can be no doubt that their form is perfect, but their lasting appeal comes from the combination of form and content. Petrarch is permanently in the center of the stage, exploring indefatigably all the delicate phenomena of his emotions. His sentiments come from the discord between the senses and the soul, the flesh and the spirit, the sensuality of his love and a mystic acceptance of its spirituality. His inner struggle between the sensuous and the ascetic is reflected in subtleties and antitheses of expression. He does not fight or rebel against the conflict, but records it with tender melancholy, in plaintive tones -- clear, sweet, with the elegance of technical perfection. The musical qualities are developed with the greatest sensitivity. - No wonder the poems swept Europe and immortalized their author. Their mood, imagery, and rhyme scheme dominated literary circles for centuries, and the names of Petrarch and Laura became symbols of passionate love constrained by spirituality." - Petrarch lived from 1304 to 1374. To my mind, the fact that he was born just out of the 13th century is the kind of slip that one can readily accept. Tangled Up in Blue was written with inspiration, but not necessarily with a biographical dictionary. (Reading over the above statement, I should underline that the slip was Dylan's for having said that Petrach was born in the 13th century, not Petrach's for having been born too late -- blame in on a...) - Matthew
Despite occasional slips when he sings it in concert, it is 13th and not
15th century. Boccaccio and Petrarch could well be the poets meant
(especially the latter), but they were actually born in the early 14th
century. Of course, Dylan could have easily confused 13th century with
1300s, and since it's not a scholarly work never have noticed the slip.
If, however, it really is the 13th century, then Dante could
well be the poet he means. When we think of Dante, it is The Divine
Comedy which immediately springs to mind, not exactly the kind of poem
that seems to be indicated in the verse (quite aside from the fact that
it, too, was written in the 14th century).
However, Dante's first major work Vita Nuova, was written
between 1290 and 1294 and relates to his love for Beatrice, who died in
1290. According to the Concise Oxford Companion to English Literature
(2nd edition): "This linking verse/prose narrative tells the story of
his love, and interprets the poems from the standpoint of one who has
come to see his beloved as the instrument of his spiritual salvation."
Now, this sounds exactly like the kind of thing that would
compel the protagonist back on the road to "get to her somehow". I
haven't read Vita Nuova myself, but certainly now intend to. Anyone have
any more suggestions?
Matthew
On "Blood On The Tracks" it is the 15th, but on the "Bootleg Series" it is the 13th. ...
Donne isn't Italian--and the first recording of Tangled, the
one released on the Bootleg series, says 13th Century. The
poet is Dante--the poet who wrote in the popular vernacular
(Italian, as opposed to the Latin of other "important works"
that preceded him) and spoke about the layers of hell inhabited
by some very important and powerful people--his outspoken attitudes
and alliances got him exiled from Florence and he is now buried
in Ravenna, Italy, even though a tomb awaits him in the Santa
Croce (Holy Cross) church in Florence where Michelangelo and
Galileo are currently buried.
Bob in Seattle
I'll toss in Tommaso di Celano (c.1185 - c.1255) who penned the Dies Irae. (Day of Wrath.) It may not reflect romantce in the Dante/Beatrice sense, but definitely does so in the "When the Night comes Fallin'" sense.
Check this out:
Day of wrath! O day of mourning!
See fulfilled the prophets' warning,
Heaven and earth in ashes burning!
I've heard that it's Guido Cavalcanti -- who I believe was a friend of and influence on Dante. Earlier than Dante; in fact, 13th century...
Guido Cavalcanti (1255-1300)
Right nationality, right century, and writes about romantic love more directly than Dante.
Cavalcanti was a friend, and died in 1300, but very little of his
verse remains--much of it is in Canzone d'amore (Songs of Love)--but I
believe Dylan meant Dante.
Poet, exile, philosopher, he was banished from Florence for opposing
the powers of the Pope, and wrote the beautiful Divine Comedy, a poets
journey through Heaven, Hell and Purgatory in the common language (not
the elevated Latin, but Italian), the popular vernacular.
Dylan, to me, connects so strongly with this story of earthly powers
and corruptible seed, the high place of darkness and light--and the
gradual revelation of God to the pilgrim.
Even though he lived from 1265-1321, the Comedy was written after he
was banished in 1302. La Vita Nuova (the New Life) was composed in 1292,
in the Thirteenth Century.
Dylan and Dante have many similarities--and the connection seems the
most likely. I don't think we have to reach into other countries or
centuries to solve this problem.
bob in seattle
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 12:18:07 GMT From: eddie@edlis.org (Ed Ricardo) Subject: Re: italian poet from the 15th century djk (djk23@columbia.edu) wrote: : Mike Kahn (kahn7746@BLUE.UNIVNORTHCO.EDU) wrote: : >some have said that the poet is dante, but somehow i don't see a : >romantic evening of reading "Inferno"....but, you know bob. : >but i've wondered who it could be...anyone else? : I don't know who the poet is either, but since Dante died in the : _fourteenth century_, it can't be him. Remember Lloyd Noble Center, Norman, Oklahoma, 23 November 1978 []? Then she opened up a book of poems And she started quotin' it to me It was either written by Charles Baudelaire Or some Italian poem from the 13th century I think two points are worth making, she chooses the poem so he may not know what it is and if YOU want it to be Dante the fact the dates don't tally is no problem, Dylan's skills on matters chronological are remarkable for their lack of accuracy in many many circumstances... Consult EDLIS' Italian Affairs agent if you want serious detail on the possible poets, there have been previous threads on this ugo@glue.umd.edu Craig
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 11:40:18 BST From: david lindsey (dfl1@UNIX.YORK.AC.UK) Subject: italian poet thread I've been reading these threads for the last week increasingly bemused that everyone has such short memories. So lets go back to 1978, and Bob's second day in Australia, 12th march. He's being interviewed by Craig Mcgregor who edited 'Retrospective' and is one of the few journalists Bob seems at ease with. They've been talking for well over an hour. craig; I've always thought 'tangled up in blue' was a great song. I really like it. Dylan : Yeah, I like that one too. Craig : Without knowing anything about it, I half assumed that Blue might be Joan Baez. Dylan : Joni Mitchell had an album out called 'blue' . And it affected me, I couldn't get it out of my head. And it just stayed in my head and when I wrote that song I wondered, what's that mean ? And then I figured that it was just there, and I guess that's what happened, y'know. Craig : It's not the same 'blue' as in 'it's all over now baby blue' ? Dylan : No, no. That's a different blue. That's a character right off the haywagon. That Baby Blue is from right upstairs at the barber shop, y'know off the street.......... a different baby blue, I haven't run into her in a long time, long time. Craig : you're being serious ? Dylan : Yeah, I've never looked at Joan Baez as being Baby Blue. Craig : Do you see much of her these days ? Dylan : (pause) She was on two tours with me. I haven't seen her since then. She went to Europe. Craig : You involved in her ? Dylan : No, No ......... Craig : Listening to 'tangled up in blue', I got the feeling, it's like an autobiography; a sort of funny, wry, compressed novel...... Dylan : Yeah, that's the first I ever wrote that I felt free enough to change all the ......what is it, the tenses around, is that what it is ? Craig : the person.... Dylan : The he and the she and the I and the you, and the we and the us-- I figured it was all the same anyway-- I could throw them all in where they floated right-- and it works on that level. Craig : Its got those nice lines at the end, about ' there was music in the cafes at night and revolution in the air' and ' some are mathematicians, some are carpenters wives, I don't know how it all got started, I don't know what they do with their lives'. Dylan : I like that song. Yeah that poet from the 13th century.... Craig : Who was that ? Dylan : Plutarch. Is that his name ? Craig : Yeah. Are there a lot of dylanologists around still in the states ? Dylan : I don't pay much attention to that. I get over-enthusiastic fans. But I never did pay much mind to that. Good interview, worth chasing up from one of Dylan's more lucid periods. File it with the Jonathon Cott pieces from rolling stone in 78, and the playboy interview from jan 78. So I hope that puts an end to that. Often if you go back to the sources a lot of these silly questions could be avoided. Get a decent lyrics book, a biography, stolen moments, a subscription to the telegraph and stop wasting everyone's time. Then this digest could become informative and genuinely discuss more interesting issues. And as for the guy who wrote in last week saying that Dylan did have a motorcycle accident and that was what led to his conversion to christianity perhaps there is a twilight zone discussion group somewhere ?
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:12:30 -0500 From: Daniel Michael (dqm7726@IS2.NYU.EDU) Subject: Hopeful Solution To the Italian Poet Mystery I just thought i would share something I found out and help us get to the bottom of this perpetual mystery. A month or two ago I was reading the Inferno by Dante (The Mentor Edition translated by John Ciardi) when I came across this little tidbit in the Third Cantos, line 106, p. 45: "and the demon Charon with EYES LIKE BURNING COALS." EYES LIKE BURNING COALS!!!!!!! as in "Then she opend up a book of poems And handed it to me Written by an Italian poet >From the thirteenth century. And every one of them words rang true and glowed LIKE BURNING COALS." I know Dante was ruled out before for one reason or another, but I think this is the strongest evidence towards a solution. I know the great one said in an interview it was petarch (I know I probably mispelt it), but he also said Self-Portrait was going to be his masterpiece. It's not like Bob to decieve his fans, yeah right. I also know Dante was a little outside the 13th century, all that proves to me is that Bob isn't a stickler for dates, i mean he even switches the date around, so how reliable is it? Well, this is my take, and I think I'm right and everybody else is wrong. Just kidding. Just thought this would be an interesting wrench to throw into this problem.