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PostPosted: Sat October 26th, 2013, 22:02 GMT 

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OK, so I think it's safe to say we all think Bob is a brilliant songwriter. But even geniuses have their less-than-stellar moments. One thing that really annoys me is a rhyme that seems forced, or just plain corny. My question is: what do you think is the worst rhyme in a Bob Dylan song? My pick has to be Winterlude/Dude :oops: .


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PostPosted: Sat October 26th, 2013, 22:22 GMT 
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ForeignSun wrote:
OK, so I think it's safe to say we all think Bob is a brilliant songwriter. But even geniuses have their less-than-stellar moments. One thing that really annoys me is a rhyme that seems forced, or just plain corny. My question is: what do you think is the worst rhyme in a Bob Dylan song? My pick has to be Winterlude/Dude :oops: .


:lol: I actually love that song, but yes he usually comes up with better rhymes than that.


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PostPosted: Sat October 26th, 2013, 22:34 GMT 

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There are loads. These two couplets from Hurricane stand immediately out:

But then they took him to the jailhouse
Where they try to turn a man into a mouse.

and

The DA said he was the one who did the deed
And the all-white jury agreed.

Every line in Lenny Bruce is dreadful, but the refrain has always been a bugging point:

Lenny Bruce was bad.
He was the brother that you never had.

On its own, it's not egregious, but it sums up the total laziness of the rest of the verses. There's also this nugget from Spirit on the Water, that I wince at every time:

You think I'm over the hill
Think I'm past my prime
Let me see what you got
We can have a whoppin' good time


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PostPosted: Sat October 26th, 2013, 23:40 GMT 
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The Killer Snark wrote:
There are loads. These two couplets from Hurricane stand immediately out:

But then they took him to the jailhouse
Where they try to turn a man into a mouse.

and

The DA said he was the one who did the deed
And the all-white jury agreed.

Every line in Lenny Bruce is dreadful, but the refrain has always been a bugging point:

Lenny Bruce was bad.
He was the brother that you never had.

On its own, it's not egregious, but it sums up the total laziness of the rest of the verses. There's also this nugget from Spirit on the Water, that I wince at every time:

You think I'm over the hill
Think I'm past my prime
Let me see what you got
We can have a whoppin' good time


Gotta disagree on spirit. That always gets the crowd going.


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PostPosted: Sat October 26th, 2013, 23:49 GMT 

Joined: Tue May 14th, 2013, 19:30 GMT
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A lot of cringe-worthy rhymes in the 80s and early 90s. An obvious answer, but I'll nominate all of this:

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a gypsy queen
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle all dressed in green
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle ’til the moon is blue
Wiggle ’til the moon sees you

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle in your boots and shoes
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, you got nothing to lose
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a swarm of bees
Wiggle on your hands and knees

Wiggle to the front, wiggle to the rear
Wiggle ’til you wiggle right out of here
Wiggle ’til it opens, wiggle ’til it shuts
Wiggle ’til it bites, wiggle ’til it cuts

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle—you can raise the dead

Wiggle ’til you’re high, wiggle ’til you’re higher
Wiggle ’til you vomit fire
Wiggle ’til it whispers, wiggle ’til it hums
Wiggle ’til it answers, wiggle ’til it comes

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like satin and silk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a pail of milk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, rattle and shake
Wiggle like a big fat snake


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PostPosted: Sat October 26th, 2013, 23:53 GMT 

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If we're going with Under the Red Sky, the lyrics (and rhymes) of Handy Dandy happen to be far worse:

Handy Dandy, controversy surrounds him
He been around the world and back again
Something in the moonlight still hounds him
Handy Dandy, just like sugar and candy

Handy Dandy, if every bone in his body was broken he would never admit it
He got an all-girl orchestra and when he says
“Strike up the band,” they hit it
Handy Dandy, Handy Dandy

You say, “What are ya made of?”
He says, “Can you repeat what you said?”
You’ll say, “What are you afraid of?”
He’ll say, “Nothin’! Neither ’live nor dead.”

Handy Dandy, he got a stick in his hand and a pocket full of money
He says, “Darling, tell me the truth, how much time I got?”
She says, “You got all the time in the world, honey”
Handy Dandy, Handy Dandy

He’s got that clear crystal fountain
He’s got that soft silky skin
He’s got that fortress on the mountain
With no doors, no windows, no thieves can break in

Handy Dandy, sitting with a girl named Nancy in a garden feelin’ kind of lazy
He says, “Ya want a gun? I’ll give ya one.” She says, “Boy, you talking crazy”
Handy Dandy, just like sugar and candy
Handy Dandy, pour him another brandy

Handy Dandy, he got a basket of flowers and a bag full of sorrow
He finishes his drink, he gets up from the table, he says
“Okay, boys, I’ll see you tomorrow”
Handy Dandy, Handy Dandy, just like sugar and candy
Handy Dandy, just like sugar and candy


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PostPosted: Sat October 26th, 2013, 23:58 GMT 

Joined: Tue May 14th, 2013, 19:30 GMT
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Yeah, you may be right.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 02:28 GMT 
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Wiggle, Wiggle and Handy Dandy are beautiful, fun, and charming in every way... Brilliantly written diddies that you can sing at the top of your lungs with your little children. You certainly can't say that about The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 03:13 GMT 
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Now the beach is deserted except for some kelp...
You always responded when I needed your help.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 05:09 GMT 
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Maybe I'm just an idiot but what qualifies a rhyme as "good" or "bad"? Does it depend on how contrived it seems?


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 05:48 GMT 

Joined: Mon April 6th, 2009, 20:28 GMT
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The Killer Snark wrote:
There are loads. These two couplets from Hurricane stand immediately out:

But then they took him to the jailhouse
Where they try to turn a man into a mouse.

and

The DA said he was the one who did the deed
And the all-white jury agreed.

Every line in Lenny Bruce is dreadful, but the refrain has always been a bugging point:

Lenny Bruce was bad.
He was the brother that you never had.

On its own, it's not egregious, but it sums up the total laziness of the rest of the verses. There's also this nugget from Spirit on the Water, that I wince at every time:

You think I'm over the hill
Think I'm past my prime
Let me see what you got
We can have a whoppin' good time


All these are great. What the hell is wrong with them? Jeeze.

What are the "rules" of a good vs bad rhyme? I'm mystified.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 06:07 GMT 
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there are zero good rhymes in Nashville Skyline Rag.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 06:41 GMT 

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AndoDoug wrote:
Now the beach is deserted except for some kelp...
You always responded when I needed your help.


Always been one of my favourites . . .


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 08:22 GMT 
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The Killer Snark wrote:
There are loads. These two couplets from Hurricane stand immediately out:

But then they took him to the jailhouse
Where they try to turn a man into a mouse.

and

The DA said he was the one who did the deed
And the all-white jury agreed.


Every line in Lenny Bruce is dreadful, but the refrain has always been a bugging point:

Lenny Bruce was bad.
He was the brother that you never had.

On its own, it's not egregious, but it sums up the total laziness of the rest of the verses. There's also this nugget from Spirit on the Water, that I wince at every time:

You think I'm over the hill
Think I'm past my prime
Let me see what you got
We can have a whoppin' good time


I like the bolded one personally.

Wiggle, Wiggle and Handy Dandy are definitely corny, but I think I'd agree with UP that they're both charming in their own way. Clearly Bob didn't set out to write his greatest songs of his career there, he just wanted to write something that would make people smile.

I think he pulled off what he set out to do.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 09:51 GMT 
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I've always been undecided if

She could be respectably married
or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires


is his best rhyme, or his worst. Can go either way!


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 10:13 GMT 
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panther wrote:
I've always been undecided if

She could be respectably married
or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires


is his best rhyme, or his worst. Can go either way!


I'd say this one is not a rhyme at all, and only Dylan's mastery of the art of singing turns it into one. I would also say that there are certain "bad" rhymes that are saved by being knowingly crass: the "winterlude/dude" and the whole of Wiggle Wiggle spring to mind. As for the worst, I think I'd have to go with "kelp/help".


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 10:31 GMT 
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AndoDoug wrote:
Now the beach is deserted except for some kelp...
You always responded when I needed your help.



This one always makes me cringe. Some other shockers include 'wonder' and 'plunder' in Love Sick...ruins the entire song for me. And 'vacant lot'/'forget me not' in Senor.

But surely the worst ever is 'juiced in it'/'used to it' in Like a Rolling Stone. Absolutely awful rhyme! And to think some folks think Dylan deserves the Nobel Prize for Literature. The horror! the horror!


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 10:43 GMT 
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On a slightly tangential note, this may [not] be of interest -

http://www.theglobaledition.com/bob-dyl ... ake-sense/


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 11:45 GMT 
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panther wrote:
I've always been undecided if

She could be respectably married
or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires


is his best rhyme, or his worst. Can go either way!


The rhyme is brilliant, I think, and is principally with January -
What can I say about Claudette? Ain't seen her since January
She could be respectably married or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires

In an earlier version the line goes Don't know what I say about Claudette, she could be in the mountains or the prairies/She could be respectably married, or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires but whilst that's a nice rhyme, it may not have been outrageous enough. One of the reasons why January/Buenos Aires works is because it's the topper, right at the end of a catalogue of extravagant rhyming :
cement/innocent
nauseated/deteriorated
sent to me/meant to be
humiliated/obligated
temperature/furniture


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 12:30 GMT 
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Trev wrote:
The rhyme is brilliant, I think, and is principally with January -
What can I say about Claudette? Ain't seen her since January
She could be respectably married or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires

In an earlier version the line goes Don't know what I say about Claudette, she could be in the mountains or the prairies/She could be respectably married, or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires but whilst that's a nice rhyme, it may not have been outrageous enough. One of the reasons why January/Buenos Aires works is because it's the topper, right at the end of a catalogue of extravagant rhyming :
cement/innocent
nauseated/deteriorated
sent to me/meant to be
humiliated/obligated
temperature/furniture


Spot on!


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 14:32 GMT 

Joined: Fri April 20th, 2007, 14:04 GMT
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panther wrote:
I've always been undecided if

She could be respectably married
or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires


is his best rhyme, or his worst. Can go either way!


I feel the same way about:

But it's like I'm stuck inside a painting
That's hanging in the Louvre
My throat start to tickle and my nose itches
But I know that I can't move.

There's also the terrible glove/love rhyme that he's done at least three times:

You’ll know all about it, love
It’ll fit you like a glove

I've been sitting down studying the art of love
I think it will fit me like a glove

Well I'm wearing the cloak of misery
And I've tasted jilted love
And the frozen smile upon my face
Fits me like a glove


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 14:38 GMT 
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If not for you, maybe?

Door - floor
you - blue

etc...


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 14:39 GMT 
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Dylan rhymes badly very well.
In nursery rhymes often there are rhymes for rhyme's sake, and Dylan uses that form for Wiggle, Wiggle and Rainy Day Women, both fun ways to kick off an album.
In Man Gave Names To All The Animals it's a major part of the song's charm that the rhymes are incredibly contrived, and that the final, naming rhyme in each verse is almost unbearably inevitable. It also finishes with a powerful mind rhyme, so obvious that he can leave it unsaid so it says more.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 15:29 GMT 

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I actually agree with that, mostly. Sometimes, however, something just clangs. The reason the following assontal rhyme stands out as so clumsy is because both lines are so contrived:

King Kong, little elves, on my rooftops they dance,
Playing Valentino type tangos with the makeup man's hands.

And then there is the following, from a song I love. The forced rhyme seems more forced because of the weird enjambment that takes place, right at a stanza's end. The pause jars as it's being sung:

I waited in the hallway, she went to get it,
And I tried to make sense
Out of that picture of you in your wheelchair
That leaned up against . . .


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 16:18 GMT 
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Location: In the East with the Sun in my eyes.
Today on the countryside it was hotter than a crotch.
I stood alone upon the bridge and all I did was watch.

Makes me laugh and wince. A wincelaugh. I like that word...


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