Expecting Rain

Go to main page
It is currently Wed October 17th, 2018, 03:54 GMT

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 07:04 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 3150
20 years ago Bob Dylan performed a show that is widely recognized as his worst show ever. I have been there and it was my first show. The following recollections I wrote five years ago and posted them on ER. Maybe some younger ER members missed them or other like to read them again. Therefore I post them again: jJust replace 15 years with 20 years - nothing else needs to be changed. And if you every meet anybody who says that Stuttgart 91 wasn't so bad after all - don't believe him/her.


15 years ago – the infamous Stuttgart concert
Fifteen years ago I was still at the beginning of my life (i.e. twenty-one) and had just started to discover that there was another kind of music than being played on radio and succeeding in the charts. It was in the late eighties and in the very early nineties when I found a few cassettes in my local library – Knocked Out Loaded and Budokan. Budokan became, as for many others in my generation, a kind of first connection with Bob (a good album if you are trying to get somebody used to B.D. – enough pop music that you can play that record to listeners who are not used to Bob Dylan). Soon afterwards I bought Blood On The Tracks and some other albums. Then the Bootleg Series came out, but I didn’t buy it yet – there were too many other songs to listen to. And I also bought an edition of lyrics.
Although Jimi Hendrix was more important to me in those days, I got more and more involved in the Bob Dylan thing. As time went by his lyrics became a kind of blueprint for my life (unfortunately especially the lyrics of the Blood On The Tracks-songs). Or maybe a kind of map and a scheme to interpret my own life (and in later years I began to wonder if my life developed according to Bob Dylan songs or if it just developed that way because I listened to often to those songs).
In early summer 1991 Bob had just turned 50 and there were some newspaper articles on him, but they were (as they still are) more or less stupid. And then suddenly posters appeared saying that Bob Dylan came to my hometown – live and in person.
The ticket prices were quite high (at least for me, i.e. 45 German Marks (= 23 Euros – a laugh compared to the 50-60 Euros today!)), but I still bought two tickets.
Fifteen years ago there was not internet and I was not connected to any kind of fan network. Although I knew a few people who listened to Bob Dylan songs themselves, I was quite on my own. And there were also no bootlegs – at least I didn’t have any. Only a few by Jimi Hendirx (or maybe I got them later) and maybe Bob’s “Royal Albert Hall” show from 1966. Thus I had absolutely no idea what his show was like, what to expect etc. Well, I didn’t expect him playing solo on acoustic guitar. I knew that he would have a backing band and I somehow figured out that he would play rock music.
As many people in their early twenties and/or at the beginning of the ‘Bob career’ I liked his acoustic songs from the early sixties and mid-seventies more than his rock songs (in years to follow my preferences changed very much!). So I might have hoped to hear songs like ‘Blowing In The Wind’, ‘Don’t Think Twice’, ‘Tambourine Man’ and ‘Tangled Up In Blue’ – but actually I can’t really remember.
Anyway – I was really looking forward to that concert and I was so exited. It was my first ‘real’ concert, too, i.e. my first concert of a serious artist (I had already been to one or two shows of German pop bands in the eighties).
Finally the day of the concert – June 17, 1991 – came and my then affair/girlfriend and I went to the Liederhalle (a concert venue rather designed for classical music, but this time with general admission on the floor and reserved seats on the sides. I don’t know why, but we had chosen reserved seating). I was very enthusiastic about the whole thing and especially about seeing Bob Dylan.
The show was obviously sold out (we were asked by several people outside if we had spare tickets) and expectations were high. To a lot of people of my age it felt like a sensation that Bob Dylan - the real, the great, the only Bob Dylan! – was coming to Stuttgart (we were too young to know or to remember that he had been to Stuttgart in 1987).
The show began with an opening act. A girl with long blonde hair was playing an acoustic guitar and singing some songs. I didn’t know who she was and I still don’t know. Well, I didn’t care (and I still don’t care). Her performance was okay, but nothing special and everybody was waiting for the maestro.
After the girl had finished her performance the lights were turned on again and I think there were some preparations made on stage. After some fifteen minutes the lights went down again and a man with a very bored voice and a southern German accent made an announcement through the PA: “Gut’n Aobend. – (pause) – Meine Damen und Herr’n. – (pause) – In der Liederhalle. – (pause) – Heissen sie willkommen - - - den Kuenschtler von Kolumbia Raecordts -- -- Bob Dilln” (for non-German readers: “Good evening --- Ladies and Gentlemen --- to the Liederhalle. Please welcome Columbia recording artist Bob Dylan” – translated word by word into German and every English word pronounced in the wrong way (including the name of our hero).
After that announcement (which is not on the circulating bootleg – what a pity – haha !) the band started something and a small man with the straw hat began to do something behind the keyboard. But what was it? It was noisy, there was rhythm and some kind of structure emerged, but what was it? Was it a song, an intro or just noise? Very shortly it became obvious that the main structure of the whole thing was simple repetition and it went on and on and on… Finally the small man with the straw hat, who actually looked quite like a hobo and who, as we figured out, must have been Bob Dylan (maybe a long time ago), began to sing or rather to mumble a few words or lines, but whatever he was doing (or trying to do) could NOT be called ‘singing’. The song or the rhythm thing or whatever it was went on, but there was no development, no progression and the man with the straw hat didn’t deliver more words and thus nobody had clue what kind of song was performed – if it was a song at all.
Finally it turned out to be a song, but just because it was much to long to be an intro. It took some eight minutes until the band was able to finish the kind of noise they delivered (it took me years to find out that it ought to have been ‘New Morning’).
After that beginning – which was quite a shock – things could only get better. At least that’s what I thought, but I was wrong. Although Bob tried to sing more on the songs that were to follow, the whole thing didn’t get better and sometimes got even worse. If Bob was an instrument, you would say that it was totally out of tune. Some words he sang in the wrong key, some were swallowed or simply left out, others were mumbled or shouted – it was a kind of horror trip. Thus we witnessed the self-destruction of a once great musician.
The sound the band created didn’t help either. The songs were mostly reduced to noise and most of them were unrecognizable. During the acoustic set things got a little bit better, but not very much.
I was totally disappointed and disappointment grew constantly as the show went on. If I hadn’t paid that much for the tickets, I surely left after half an hour. But I stayed – maybe because I couldn’t believe what was happening. And it seemed like I was somehow paralyzed and thus forced to watch how Bob Dylan slaughtered one song after the other and turned what was supposed to be a concert into a nightmare.
After some 100 minutes the show ended with two encores: ‘What Good Am I ?” – a question that in Bob’s case had to be answered with “’no good at all’ – and “Ballad of A Thin Man’. Both songs were – like most of the others – barely recognizable. And this time it was very obvious that Bob himself was Mr. Jones. Something was happening, but he didn’t know what it was…
Maybe Bob was totally drunk on that evening or maybe he didn’t feel well. Things like that could happen, but what really drove me mad (besides all the disappointment) was his ‘I don’t care’-attitude. Even if it’s not your best day you should (at least as a professional) give your audience the impression that you are trying hard and that you are giving the best you can – even if it is not very much you are able to offer right now. But on that evening Bob didn’t care at all. Or maybe he wasn’t able to care, to sing, to perform – whatever. It was a disaster and nothing else. And if you ever hear somebody saying that this particular show had still some great moments – this person is either mad or Bob himself ! Out of the 18 songs that were performed at that show the only one that was more or less okay was “When I Paint My Masterpiece” – how ironic!
After it was all over we went home and swore to ourselves that we would never go to a Bob Dylan concert again. And if anybody had told me in those days that I was going to do it again and again and again – I don’t know what I had done to him or her.
In short: It was my first Bob Dylan concert – and his worst !
In the months to follow I bought to Bootleg Series and in the years to follow more Bob Dylan CDs (maybe to heal and reassure myself that Bob is – or at least was – a great musician). I also left my hometown and moved to north Germany. I found the “love of my life” (who is now happily married, but not to me). She didn’t like Bob Dylan (what a healthy reaction!) and some years later we split up (but not because she didn’t like Bob Dylan). Shortly before that Bob Dylan performed in my neighborhood and I went to that show (Hannover 1995) and it was quite okay. In the years to follow I got involved more and more in the whole thing and in 1997 I finally went to see him in the UK doing ‘Love Sick’ for the first time.
‘Love Sick’ might provide some kind of clue to my passion for Bob Dylan’s music. When the most important relationship of my life split up, there was Dylan’s music and the shows I traveled to. Maybe that kept me alive, maybe it helped me to forget, maybe it forced me not to forget, maybe it partly replaced what I had lost… Tangled up in blue – and so on.

Cheers
Sven


P.S.: After the Stuttgart 91 experience I first went to a Bob Dylan concert again in 1995 and since then to 66 others, including 15 in the US and 24 in the UK.
On one of these trips I browsed to some books on Bob Dylan and in one book the Stuttgart 91 show was called “the most shambolic performance of any major artist in recent years” – right! And what a relief – I was young then, but I wasn’t wrong.

Note (from 2011): now it's 90 shows since Stuttgart 91


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 07:19 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Thu February 2nd, 2006, 05:11 GMT
Posts: 3149
Location: Tokyo, Japan
He was definitely a bit out of it circa 1991. Didn't Clinton Heylin interview a band-member who said Dylan was spraying his hair with Sambuca during that tour?

Thanks for the lengthy (re)post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 08:11 GMT 

Joined: Wed May 18th, 2011, 19:28 GMT
Posts: 949
He should make this the next release in The Bootleg Series, just to f*ck with people. I bet Uncut would give it 5 stars.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 08:12 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon October 29th, 2007, 08:30 GMT
Posts: 858
Somewhere (I don't recall where, maybe some of these music magazines or whatever) I once read a statement Bob made. He said something like: "People often say being drunk onstage would affect the performance. They are wrong". If anybody knows about this statement, please let me know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 13:14 GMT 
Titanium Member

Joined: Sun January 4th, 2009, 23:46 GMT
Posts: 5269
Maui and Waikiki 1992 are far worse and in pristine soundboard quality.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 13:24 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue August 9th, 2005, 20:52 GMT
Posts: 417
Sounds a lot like my first Dylan concert, at the Hammersmith Odeon in either 92 or 93. It's also a slightly notorious concert because he had an argument with Tony Garnier during the acoustic set. The acoustic set was actually pretty good, but the first part of the set sounds similar -- long, repetitive introductions, interminable three note acoustic solos and Dylan barking barely recognisable songs. I've heard a soundboard recording since and the vocal sounds better as a recording than it did in person. The description of the opening also rings a bell. Big cheers, band came on, played a single riff for ages until I realised that the small man with the black strat hanging near the drum kit was Dylan. He then came to the front -- looking remarkably like his iconic 60s self that night -- and mumbled into the microphone. It was ages before I worked out, more by guess work, that he was singing Maggie's Farm.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 14:07 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue June 30th, 2009, 05:06 GMT
Posts: 8848
Location: you try to get away...they drag you back
nice examples of worst case scenarios. those were some tough years. i saw him just after he turned that corner for my first show, only 15 minutes from where i lived, and where I had seen David Copperfield the year before. pretty damn convenient since i just got turned on to the guy couple years prior. i remember seeing sweat dripping down his nose and thinking, 'holy sh*t, i'm sixteen and i'm 15 feet away and i can see Bob Dylan sweat drops role off his nose.' I mean, quite cooler than the beatles impersonator group my parents took me to at the Dells a couple years prior and that Ozzy Osbourne no more tours tour, which sums up my prior concert activity. it's no wonder i hardly like anyone else. i was handed a gold standard at a most impressionable time!
found this written up about it:
http://www.musicbox-online.com/dyln8-94.html

goes to show even with an experience like Stuttgart, all you need to know is where that show belongs on the map, then one could count on seeing it would go nowhere but up from there! now that you show those years, this was also the summer i worked my first job as a lifeguard. i met my first other Bob Dylan fan there, the Chef in the country club and boyfriend of my manager, probably of the RTR gen. i told him i was going to a show and his eyes light up, 'oh? oooh...it's a good time to see him....just finished up with a tough spot, but he's been bringing the train up to speed lately. you'll have a good time,' with an assured smile, he said.

i lucked out at having a great first show, and being distracted with swim team duties when he was performing awfully at Valpo U shortely thereafter...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 14:15 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sat January 10th, 2009, 11:18 GMT
Posts: 1911
Location: Montségur
Great post, I rarely read those longs, but this time it was fun. I can't wait to hear the bootleg if one exists.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 14:16 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue June 30th, 2009, 05:06 GMT
Posts: 8848
Location: you try to get away...they drag you back
rwasser wrote:
Somewhere (I don't recall where, maybe some of these music magazines or whatever) I once read a statement Bob made. He said something like: "People often say being drunk onstage would affect the performance. They are wrong". If anybody knows about this statement, please let me know.


I think i may have read that, but if i did, i know i was drunk and it did affect my reading performance. so most likely i did not.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 14:18 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon October 29th, 2007, 08:30 GMT
Posts: 858
devy wrote:
Great post, I rarely read those longs, but this time it was fun. I can't wait to hear the bootleg if one exists.



of course it does and a DVD, too!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 15:04 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat January 1st, 2011, 20:57 GMT
Posts: 6919
Location: Out in the West Texas town of El Paso
rwasser wrote:
devy wrote:
Great post, I rarely read those longs, but this time it was fun. I can't wait to hear the bootleg if one exists.



of course it does and a DVD, too!


The recording can make the cut (hey maybe he just drifted off the mic too much), but that DVD just proves he must have been trashed or rode his bicycle vigorously around before the show. Nevertheless, he was like this throughout the 80's as well, but around the time of the Traveling Wilbury's and Oh Mercy he seemed to have gotten himself together, hell even for Under the Red Sky or most of those 1990 shows. Then you get the Stuttgart show, which appears to be rock bottom, but then again not all of 1991 was bad. The Madison, Wisconsin show from that November was wonderful. I think Dylan was drinking in 1992 as well for that Hawaii show and it was documented he stayed up way later than he should have, drinking too, after the 30th anniversary show partying in Liam Clancy's pub in the village, if memory serves me well. By 1993 he seems to have pulled himself together to never hit that far bottom in a show again, as far as I've heard.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 15:19 GMT 
Senior Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri March 2nd, 2007, 15:48 GMT
Posts: 3447
Location: beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free
Thanks, slewan, I loved your story. I appreciate the repost. I'm almost 60 yrs old and only started being a "fan & follower" since 2006. Pretty much every show I've seen, I've loved and felt like Bob was giving his all. It's fascinating to hear about those "other times" - even though it sounds crazy, considering what you had to sit through in Stuttgart, but I'm jealous. Over so many, you've gotten to see the Bob come-back. By sticking it out 20 years ago, you and other fans who stayed may have helped him to start caring again. "Never know. :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 16:38 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 3150
a recording of the show can be found in the rare recordings section. The boot is called 'Name That Tune' (!)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 17:36 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu January 24th, 2008, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 18537
Location: Where the swift don't win the race
devy wrote:
Great post, I rarely read those longs, but this time it was fun. I can't wait to hear the bootleg if one exists.
Its nowhere near as bad as some have made it out to be... For example, some have said its the worst show he ever did during the NET and yet I find it more enjoyable than anything he did in the '60s.

There is a complete review, a very reliable one in fact, in the Discuss Rare Recordings section... I think it was from about three or four months ago. It should make for enjoyable reading.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri June 17th, 2011, 19:58 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed July 15th, 2009, 00:16 GMT
Posts: 3864
Location: ..right behind the living - just in front of the dead.
Untrodden Path wrote:
..and yet I find it more enjoyable than anything he did in the '60s.

..now that's what i call DISTANCE between opinions. :shock:
So - i was supposed to be rigging up my irrigation pump, but
Hey! those blackberries are tough.. i gotta hear this. 8)
- and thanks for the opinions - i'm glad there are opposite views,
because that's what peaks an interest.. FUN! Thanks!
..here i am all excited to hear the worst (or not) Bobshow ever!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 02:26 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed November 24th, 2010, 15:41 GMT
Posts: 999
I read this, and thought to myself "Now it couldn't be THAT bad." So I downloaded it from the A-Z.

Oh my poor ears.

Untrodden, I can't possibly see how you enjoy THIS more than anything he did in the 60s. I know you're the NET's biggest fan and all, but that is a little much.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 02:59 GMT 

Joined: Mon May 25th, 2009, 06:12 GMT
Posts: 2310
Location: swimming across the pond...
yeah, i listened to the whole concert as i went thru all the '91 shows.. i said it before in an earlier post concerning this concert, ill say it again...New Morning had to be the most awful concert opener tune Ever.... because it never did get any better.
for all the concerts i listened to from that year, they pretty much all had that feel about them..seemed like he was trying to find a rhythm and he was the only one hearing it. I felt like his band left him behind floundering and rather than support whatever it was he was tryin to get across..they kept pounding away irregardless.
Stuttgart might have a lot of votes, but i think the worst of that year would be Pittsburghs show. Most of the time he didnt even bother with words..he just kind of threw a few out there.. some even where they should have been.
i call '91 his Dont Give a **** Year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 03:14 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Thu February 2nd, 2006, 05:11 GMT
Posts: 3149
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Untrodden Path wrote:
For example, some have said its the worst show he ever did during the NET and yet I find it more enjoyable than anything he did in the '60s.

Hyperbole gets old quickly...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 03:15 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed July 15th, 2009, 00:16 GMT
Posts: 3864
Location: ..right behind the living - just in front of the dead.
Re: Downloading and listening to the show -
..i just did the same thing - to the opposite result. :D - i'm willing to bet Untrodden Path is a
guitar player and has started a show with a sudden realization that the sound is nowhere it is
supposed to be - you can't hear yourself, you can't hear each other, you have no idea what the
crowd is hearing, and what you are hearing is an overwhelming mess that is as useful toward control
as deafness. Top that off with a Bob who is obviously ill, and.. well - i wound up writing out an entire
review - song by song.. and THEN i found Untrodden Path's review over in the Discuss Rare Recordings
he mentioned, and i haven't had time yet to compare them, but - i'd bet on some agreement there too.
Beyond that - including all the complaints people don't want to believe there is a perfectly reasonable
answer for - i thought this show was great... i've never liked G.E.Smith, but i thought he stepped up
here in a terrific way too. The perspective i can appreciate is slewan's because what we are hearing
on this recording does not define what he heard out in the crowd. 8)
..and i stand by this even if Untrodden Path has never played a note - EXCEPT FOR THIS:
Untrodden Path wrote:
and yet I find it more enjoyable than anything he did in the '60s.

- you're on your own there my friend! :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 03:46 GMT 

Joined: Mon May 25th, 2009, 06:12 GMT
Posts: 2310
Location: swimming across the pond...
sometimes i wonder if bob was just being incredibly loose that year.. treating each show like a jam session..i dunno..thats how *I* hear it.. and im not a performer. Just a pair of ears... :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 04:21 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed July 15th, 2009, 00:16 GMT
Posts: 3864
Location: ..right behind the living - just in front of the dead.
..you have a good point there - as to why i might really dig this show, whereas it sounds like a disaster
to someone who is looking for a .. unflawed 'excellent' performance. Recordings like this one allow me
to get inside the heads of the musicians (in an interpreted way) enjoying what i think is happening on
stage compared to listening to it for the sheer audio pleasure. Your comment makes a good point
about the distinction between listeners, and if i were to objectively listen to it that way.. ? 8)
..i'm not sure why, but i do find an energy that is missing from most shows - maybe it's the extra
effort it is taking everyone to overcome the problems- whatever they were..


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 12:17 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu January 24th, 2008, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 18537
Location: Where the swift don't win the race
panther wrote:
Untrodden Path wrote:
For example, some have said its the worst show he ever did during the NET and yet I find it more enjoyable than anything he did in the '60s.

Hyperbole gets old quickly...
I have probably been guilty of hyperbole on more than one occassion... But I really do not find anything Dylan recorded from the '60s enticing enough to listen to anymore. I didn't care for it then and when I became a more serious Dylan fan in the mid-70s, I began putting in the effort, trying to listen to all his works. From the mid-80s to about a year ago, I used to try listen to each album about once a year or so and I honestly can't remember the last time I listened to any album or CD all the way through. It seems I always ended up turning it off or putting something else on. I just couldn't "get" it.

I'm getting on to the short end of life and most likely will not be putting that much effort into it anymore. Life is too short. I finally have faced it that it simply isn't going to happen. I'm okay with that.

And I'll admit Stuttgart may not be Bob at his best, but I do find it has its moments and I enjoy them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 16:00 GMT 

Joined: Thu December 9th, 2004, 16:38 GMT
Posts: 1544
Location: Canadee-i-o
Is this the show that was posted on Youtube a while back, in which Bob's butt was soaking wet? Sounds like it. :lol:

I rate that as possibly the funniest Dylan-related moment ever. Part of what made it so funny was the thought that people had paid significant dough to watch this clearly bombed-out-of-his-gourd guy sitting in his own piss or whatever it was. :lol: As for trying to argue that that's good music, what can I say. If that's good, I've got a recording of my basset hound howling that you can groove to. At least the hound is sober. Comically catastrophic stuff.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 19:50 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed July 15th, 2009, 00:16 GMT
Posts: 3864
Location: ..right behind the living - just in front of the dead.
Lone Pilgrim wrote:
Is this the show that was posted on Youtube a while back, in which Bob's butt was soaking wet?
Sounds like it. :lol: ... As for trying to argue that that's good music, ...

Now, let's make sure that you know i am not saying this to be a wise-guy - i am interested in
your opinion. But maybe we should make sure you are addressing the Stuttgart '91 show.. 8)
-then at least we can be sure we are comparing opinions of the same thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 18th, 2011, 20:33 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 3150
Untrodden Path wrote:

And I'll admit Stuttgart may not be Bob at his best, but I do find it has its moments and I enjoy them.


the best moment was the end of the show - or rather: the fact that it ended :cry:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group