Expecting Rain
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1967 Copyright protection
https://www.expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=91308
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Author:  BobDylan66 [ Mon January 1st, 2018, 10:17 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

GirlsWon'tLeaveMeAlone wrote:
Sorry for being so ignorant, BUT could one of you explain to a rookie what you are talking about?? Please in lay-mans terms. Not links to other threads, I never understand them. Doh.


Each year since 2012, thanks to a new EU law/directive, record labels have to release material that are 50 years old if they want to retain the copyright for those tracks for another 70 years (if not they become public domain and consequently free). For instance, in 2012, you could find many 1962 outtakes from Freewheelin' and some live shows like the Gaslight, Finjan Club, etc. In 2013, it was the Times They Are A Changin', Carnegie Hall and Town Hall, and so on.
For Sony the goal was to retain the rights on those tracks for a future bootleg series or just to advert a grey are release (you know, those cheap records you can find on amazon of early rock'n'roll, live shows of the Beatles, etc.).
That is why they released a compilation each year (first on CD, then vinyl for 1963-1964, followed by the gigantic Bootleg Series Volume 12 with all the outtakes of 1965-1966 and the live download of 1965 shows in 2015, and finally the complete 1966 live recordings box set for 2016). We also think the Basement Tapes were released entirely in 2014 to beat the copyright for 1967 (Blood On The Tracks sessions were expected but those laws change the order).

So you might think it was logical to release the John Wesley Harding sessions for 2017 to keep the rights of 1967 songs? Unfortunately, Sony said they won't release them because no collector has them as we know of (that means no risk of grey area release). But those releases were always low-key. There were less than a thousand copies in all of Europe, and only in record stores, until Bootleg Series Volume 12 came with the outrageously priced collector edition (more than 500€ without shipment and import). So it was possible Sony just taunted us so the release won't make the news (remember, the goal for Sony is not to publish those records, just keep the rights, so less people know the better).
We are now January 1st and nothing happened, so Sony said the truth for once :(

Author:  gepetto [ Mon January 1st, 2018, 16:11 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

Maybe I’m wrong but as all the songs on JWH are copyrighted 15 Jan 1968 shouldn’t we wait till the end of 2018 to get the outtakes ?

Author:  BobDylan66 [ Mon January 1st, 2018, 16:19 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

gepetto wrote:
Maybe I’m wrong but as all the songs on JWH are copyrighted 15 Jan 1968 shouldn’t we wait till the end of 2018 to get the outtakes ?


The only date that matters for the EU law is the recording date (the year only). If a record label doesn't release the tracks before December 31st 50 years after, they become public domain.

Author:  gepetto [ Mon January 1st, 2018, 16:25 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

Ok. Thanks

Author:  GirlsWon'tLeaveMeAlone [ Mon January 1st, 2018, 18:05 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

BobDylan66 wrote:
GirlsWon'tLeaveMeAlone wrote:
Sorry for being so ignorant, BUT could one of you explain to a rookie what you are talking about?? Please in lay-mans terms. Not links to other threads, I never understand them. Doh.


Each year since 2012, thanks to a new EU law/directive, record labels have to release material that are 50 years old if they want to retain the copyright for those tracks for another 70 years (if not they become public domain and consequently free). For instance, in 2012, you could find many 1962 outtakes from Freewheelin' and some live shows like the Gaslight, Finjan Club, etc. In 2013, it was the Times They Are A Changin', Carnegie Hall and Town Hall, and so on.
For Sony the goal was to retain the rights on those tracks for a future bootleg series or just to advert a grey are release (you know, those cheap records you can find on amazon of early rock'n'roll, live shows of the Beatles, etc.).
That is why they released a compilation each year (first on CD, then vinyl for 1963-1964, followed by the gigantic Bootleg Series Volume 12 with all the outtakes of 1965-1966 and the live download of 1965 shows in 2015, and finally the complete 1966 live recordings box set for 2016). We also think the Basement Tapes were released entirely in 2014 to beat the copyright for 1967 (Blood On The Tracks sessions were expected but those laws change the order).

So you might think it was logical to release the John Wesley Harding sessions for 2017 to keep the rights of 1967 songs? Unfortunately, Sony said they won't release them because no collector has them as we know of (that means no risk of grey area release). But those releases were always low-key. There were less than a thousand copies in all of Europe, and only in record stores, until Bootleg Series Volume 12 came with the outrageously priced collector edition (more than 500€ without shipment and import). So it was possible Sony just taunted us so the release won't make the news (remember, the goal for Sony is not to publish those records, just keep the rights, so less people know the better).
We are now January 1st and nothing happened, so Sony said the truth for once :(


Thank you BobDylan66. I am going go digest all that information and see if I understand it! :D

Author:  Still Go Barefoot [ Sat January 6th, 2018, 04:08 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

Just hafta say I’m still a bit disappointed this didn’t make it out.
That’s all.

Author:  Sean Murdock [ Mon January 8th, 2018, 14:36 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Just hafta say I’m still a bit disappointed this didn’t make it out.
That’s all.

I think you speak for all of us...

Author:  jman [ Mon January 8th, 2018, 15:27 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

nothing to worry about. a few pages back someone promised to share the recordings if sony didn't release them, so its a win-win for us all.

Author:  escapeedrifter [ Mon January 8th, 2018, 16:03 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Just hafta say I’m still a bit disappointed this didn’t make it out.
That’s all.



Agree with this, still a little shocked they are so sure nothing will get out.

Author:  slewan [ Mon January 8th, 2018, 17:20 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

maybe we just haven't yet found those little record shops that got the very limted releases of the 1967 Copyright Protection Collection? Maybe they are on Malta, Estonia or some other remote places…

Author:  my precious time [ Mon January 8th, 2018, 17:32 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

slewan wrote:
maybe we just haven't yet found those little record shops that got the very limted releases of the 1967 Copyright Protection Collection? Maybe they are on Malta, Estonia or some other remote places…

Maybe they haven't even released it via a record store but it can be purchased at a butcher's.... :lol:

Author:  Sean Murdock [ Tue January 9th, 2018, 03:58 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

jman wrote:
nothing to worry about. a few pages back someone promised to share the recordings if sony didn't release them, so its a win-win for us all.

I think someone may have predicted that some tracks will leak, but I don't think anyone actually promised to leak them to anyone here...

Author:  jman [ Tue January 9th, 2018, 15:46 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

Sean Murdock wrote:
jman wrote:
nothing to worry about. a few pages back someone promised to share the recordings if sony didn't release them, so its a win-win for us all.

I think someone may have predicted that some tracks will leak, but I don't think anyone actually promised to leak them to anyone here...

I believe the exact wording was "I SWEAR TO GOD ON THE LIVES OF MY CHILDREN" or something like that?

Author:  Sean Murdock [ Tue January 9th, 2018, 16:15 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

jman wrote:
I believe the exact wording was "I SWEAR TO GOD ON THE LIVES OF MY CHILDREN" or something like that?

Sure ... something like that ... from your lips to the bootlegger's ears ... lol...

Author:  Still Go Barefoot [ Fri May 18th, 2018, 16:31 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

Sean Murdock wrote:
jman wrote:
nothing to worry about. a few pages back someone promised to share the recordings if sony didn't release them, so its a win-win for us all.

I think someone may have predicted that some tracks will leak, but I don't think anyone actually promised to leak them to anyone here...

I think that’s correct.
Bob Inc. had always erred on the side of caution with this “law.”
Wonder what loophole changed their mind.

Perhaps they will sneak the unused & outtakes into this year?

Author:  dvdunplugged [ Mon May 21st, 2018, 19:53 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

michpom wrote:
As noted in Isis #193, "it seems that Dylan's people are sure that none of the music from John Wesley Harding sessions has ever found its way into the hands of collectors", and for that reason they do not intend to release them in 2017 to protect the copyright, as they did for previous years sessions.
May be 'Dylan's people' should reconsider the question: there is at least one collector who has them, (with many other non circulating gems). This is not a legend: several other people have listened to these outtakes, including myself.
So even if the person who has these sessions will never let them circulate, as he does not make any copy, nobody can be sure of what will happen in the future.
That's why, in terms of commercial protection of the copyright, it would be a wise decision for Sony to release the 1967 sessions.


I'm a big fan of JWH so would love to see some of the sessions turn up on a BS release or on a Copyright Protection release. After reading a lot of the posts my first reaction was - silly Sony, they should have released them. Then I began wondering, what if the master tapes have gone missing (stranger things have happened!) and the one collector who has them might be one of the only people who has them? What would Sony do then?

Author:  WrittenInMySoul [ Tue May 22nd, 2018, 05:31 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

dvdunplugged wrote:

I'm a big fan of JWH so would love to see some of the sessions turn up on a BS release or on a Copyright Protection release. After reading a lot of the posts my first reaction was - silly Sony, they should have released them. Then I began wondering, what if the master tapes have gone missing (stranger things have happened!) and the one collector who has them might be one of the only people who has them? What would Sony do then?


I don't think it should be too hard for Sony to track down this guy. And then I guess they should be able to persuade him, maybe with the help of lawyers, guns and money, to hand over the recordings. Maybe the tapes still wouldn't get released afterwards, but at least they would be, from Sony's point of view, in the right hands.

Author:  FolkieEmo [ Tue May 22nd, 2018, 09:07 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

WrittenInMySoul wrote:
dvdunplugged wrote:

I'm a big fan of JWH so would love to see some of the sessions turn up on a BS release or on a Copyright Protection release. After reading a lot of the posts my first reaction was - silly Sony, they should have released them. Then I began wondering, what if the master tapes have gone missing (stranger things have happened!) and the one collector who has them might be one of the only people who has them? What would Sony do then?


I don't think it should be too hard for Sony to track down this guy. And then I guess they should be able to persuade him, maybe with the help of lawyers, guns and money, to hand over the recordings. Maybe the tapes still wouldn't get released afterwards, but at least they would be, from Sony's point of view, in the right hands.


Well, in a similar case, they couldn't even take the tape of Karen Wallace from her hands. I still hope that one day that tape could see the light, complete and in good quality.

Author:  the_hurricane [ Tue May 22nd, 2018, 09:39 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

I have and never will understand these people who say that they have these recordings in their house and don't share them. Sounds to me like a school playground "I have something that you don't, and I'm not telling you what it is." If you have it get it posted, if not shut up.

Author:  h.egbert [ Tue May 22nd, 2018, 10:26 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

As far as I know, if Sony or Dylan Inc. get hold of the JWH-Outtakes (assuming they don't have them already) and release them at any date, everyone (at least in Europe) can make a copy and sell them to his or her own benefit legally. It's just that 50 years rule is over by now.

Author:  Winter Lude [ Tue May 22nd, 2018, 14:13 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

h.egbert wrote:
As far as I know, if Sony or Dylan Inc. get hold of the JWH-Outtakes (assuming they don't have them already) and release them at any date, everyone (at least in Europe) can make a copy and sell them to his or her own benefit legally. It's just that 50 years rule is over by now.


We can hope that due to some legal technicality the 50 years is currently at 49. A late filing, a grace period, an extension, something else. If the stuff exists and it's any good, it will be part of a release.

Author:  my precious time [ Tue May 22nd, 2018, 17:53 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

Winter Lude wrote:
We can hope that due to some legal technicality the 50 years is currently at 49. A late filing, a grace period, an extension, something else. If the stuff exists and it's any good, it will be part of a release.

People forget that 1977* never happened, so the 50 years aren't over yet.

*That's why we have no bootlegs from that year, right?

Author:  Sean Murdock [ Wed May 23rd, 2018, 17:49 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

h.egbert wrote:
As far as I know, if Sony or Dylan Inc. get hold of the JWH-Outtakes (assuming they don't have them already) and release them at any date, everyone (at least in Europe) can make a copy and sell them to his or her own benefit legally. It's just that 50 years rule is over by now.

That's correct -- and remember, according to the EU Copyright Directive, it's when the tracks were RECORDED that matters, so any technicalities about when JWH was released (December 1967 or January 1968) don't matter.

Author:  Sean Murdock [ Wed May 23rd, 2018, 18:03 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

my precious time wrote:
Winter Lude wrote:
We can hope that due to some legal technicality the 50 years is currently at 49. A late filing, a grace period, an extension, something else. If the stuff exists and it's any good, it will be part of a release.

People forget that 1977* never happened, so the 50 years aren't over yet.

*That's why we have no bootlegs from that year, right?

We're talking EU copyright law, not U.S. (if that's what you're referring to). According to the EU Copyright Directive that was passed in 2011, any sound recordings made on January 1, 1963 or later have to be made available to the public within 50 years or they enter the Public Domain in the EU. All unreleased recordings made in 1962 or earlier are automatically PD now. If the recordings are released within the 50 year time-frame (as hundreds of recent Bootleg Series and Copyright Extension tracks have purposely been), the copyright of that recording is extended for another 50 years from the date it is released. In a weird irony -- unless the laws are changed again -- the album tracks from Highway 61 Revisited (for example) will eventually themselves enter the Public Domain, while the outtakes from BS12 (released in 2015) will be covered for several more decades.

The enduring mystery of this thread is why Sony and/or Bob Inc. (or Bob Ltd. I suppose) didn't deem the JWH sessions worthy of protection, after every burp and fart from 1965 and 1966 got extended for 50 more years. JWH may not be as flashy as H61 or BoB, but it's every bit as brilliant -- and imo has more artistic merit than some of the terrible-quality hotel tapes and live audience tapes from 1965-66. Sony could still someday release JWH tracks and just hope that the official stamp of approval would overwhelm any gray-market copycats -- that, or perhaps, as the Beatles / Apple has apparently decided, they'll wait and see what happens on the gray market, and fight it out in court. Whatever the "revelation" that caused their change of heart, I wish it had occurred one year later....

Author:  My Echo, My Shadow And Me [ Wed May 23rd, 2018, 19:43 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: 1967 Copyright protection

Sean Murdock wrote:
We're talking EU copyright law, not U.S. (if that's what you're referring to). According to the EU Copyright Directive that was passed in 2011, any sound recordings made on January 1, 1963 or later have to be made available to the public within 50 years or they enter the Public Domain in the EU. All unreleased recordings made in 1962 or earlier are automatically PD now. If the recordings are released within the 50 year time-frame (as hundreds of recent Bootleg Series and Copyright Extension tracks have purposely been), the copyright of that recording is extended for another 50 years* from the date it is released. In a weird irony -- unless the laws are changed again -- the album tracks from Highway 61 Revisited (for example) will eventually themselves enter the Public Domain, while the outtakes from BS12 (released in 2015) will be covered for several more decades.

*70 years from the date of release according to directive 2011/77/EU of the European Parliament and of the Council of 27 September 2011.

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