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PostPosted: Sun January 20th, 2019, 21:21 GMT 

Joined: Wed November 7th, 2018, 18:13 GMT
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The recording sessions for Infidels have some of my favorite compositions and performances from Dylan, the only problem is, I always get stuck on compiling it. As I have it, these are the circulating takes;

Jokerman- Released take and earlier knopfler sequence take
Blind Willie McTell- Electric and Acoustic
I and I- released take and knopfler sequence of released take
Someone Got a Hold of My Heart- knopfler take and released take (possibly a rehearsal take)
Foot of Pride- original knopfler sequence take only
Don't Fall Apart on Me Tonight- Released and earlier take with spoken verses
Sweetheart Like you-Early take, knopfler Sequence take, and released take
Tell Me- released and copywriter tape bootleg
Lord protect my child- released and earlier take
Liscence to kill- released take
Clean Cut Kid- bootleg version only
Union sundown- released and early take
Man of Peace- Released Take
Neighborhood bully- released take
Julius and ethel- Knopfler seq take only
Angel Flying Too Close To the Ground- Released Single and possibly an alt take floating around
This Was My Love- Two takes circulating

I hope to start by discussing the definitive version of each and from there, make either a 1 CD or two CD set from our findings. Please restrict yourself to constructive posts only...

So first up, Jokerman-. Thoughts on each take. Which one is the definitive?


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 11:18 GMT 
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Ok, let's start with the (in)famous Mr. Heylin, who in his book "The Recording Sessions [1960 - 1994]" speaks of a "nearly released" version which goes like this:

A
Jokerman
License To Kill
Man Of Peace
Neighborhood Bully

B
Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight
Blind Willie McTell
Sweetheart Like You
I And I
Foot Of Pride

This one (can't say if it is reliable at all) misses of course Union Sundown, which I could renounce easily. Having Blind Willie McTell officially released way back then, would have been a major improvement (though it's not clear to me, which version would have been cut).

I have to admit that I still have problems with Foot Of Pride, so I could live without it.


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 14:44 GMT 

Joined: Fri July 10th, 2009, 06:51 GMT
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There is always this:
https://albumsthatneverwere.blogspot.co ... q=infidels


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 16:08 GMT 
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Paul Williams in his Performing Artist Book 2 (1974-1986) proposed:

The temptation to put together one's own version of Infidels is considerable. However you do it, it's not hard to come up with an album vastly better than what was released. My choice is to put the four epics (ambitious, big-screen numbers) on side one: "Foot of Pride," "Blind Willie McTell," "I and I," and "Jokerman." Side two leads off with "License to Kill" (the alternate mix; I find the drum sound on the released version intolerable) as a transition into a suite of love songs: "Don't Fall Apart on Me Tonight," "Sweetheart Like You," "Tell Me," and "Someone's Got a Hold of My Heart."


I would listen to this album more without the drum sound. It would be a favorite as sequenced above and without those 80s drums. Will have to wait for the inevitable Bootleg Series release of Another Infidels.


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 16:19 GMT 
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I would listen to this album more without the drum sound. It would be a favorite as sequenced above and without those 80s drums


Ooooh, yes please! Infidels without 80s drums would be so much more enjoyable. Like that sequence, although I'd keep Jokerman as the opener.


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 17:10 GMT 

Joined: Wed November 7th, 2018, 18:13 GMT
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Okay, but I've read all that. I'm curious, does anyone prefer the bootleged jokerman to the original release? Or the other I and I. Recently I started getting really into the Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight that's bootlegged. It has spoken and sung parts, like he would do with Brownsville girl one year later


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 17:11 GMT 

Joined: Mon May 11th, 2009, 17:29 GMT
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Quote:
I would listen to this album more without the drum sound. It would be a favorite as sequenced above and without those 80s drums. Will have to wait for the inevitable Bootleg Series release of Another Infidels.


Sly Dunbar was enamoured with his Simmons electronic pad drum kit at the time, all of the sessions he worked on Jamaica also "featured" it for a year or two. These records also now sound very dated.


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 18:15 GMT 
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Mine goes:
Lord Protect My Child
License To Kill
Man Of Peace
Jokerman
Blind Willie McTell
I and I
Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight
Union Sundown
Foot of Pride


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 20:59 GMT 

Joined: Tue June 21st, 2016, 17:01 GMT
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I think we all have to make our own Infidels, just like we all have to find our own road to salvation. I don't have any suggestions about sequencing, but these are my takes on the songs and which I'd include.

Jokerman: Many people think the Knopfler version is closer to the inspiration, better sung, better mixed, sounds more like an actual human being singing it. That may be. I prefer the album version because I like the lyrics better. Yes.
Blind Willie McTell: The old debate about the band version vs. the piano and guitar version. I'll go with the latter, maybe just for the way he sings "There's a woman by the river." Yes.
I and I: The mix is different in the Knopfler and the album versions. Maybe the Knopfler version is better. But the album version has a single phrase punched in: "smoking down the track" instead of "or something to crack." It makes all the difference. Yes.
Someone's Got a Hold of My Heart: There's a good outtake of this--not just a rehearsal track. It's got more energy than the released version, and I should probably like it better. But to me it doesn't sound like he's more into it so much as that he hasn't found the melody yet and he's just blustering through. Yes.
Foot of Pride: Yes.
Don't Fall Apart on Me Tonight: I could make almost the same comment as about "Someone's Got a Hold of My Heart." The outtake is more aggressive, but he hasn't found the melody for the bridge yet. The most interesting difference: on the outtake, instead of "Don't you remember St. James Street," it's "Don't you remember Napoleon Street." I think what happened is that while "Blind Willie McTell" was still under consideration for the album, it was redundant having St. James Street and the old St. James Hotel on the same album. But after Dylan rejected "Blind Willie McTell," he still, for some reason, wanted to keep old St. James around. Maybe.
Sweetheart Like You: Several lyric variations. I guess I like the one with "the lighthouse around the bend." The only way I can justify this song is to imagine it as a kind of movie dialogue, a man talking up a woman in a bar and getting into some very strange territory. You can redeem a surprising number of Dylan's songs that way; "Is Your Love in Vain" is another. Yes.
Tell Me: A nice companion piece to "What Was It You Wanted." Another bar conversation. I guess I like the one that doesn't have the live dog or dead lion. Maybe.
Lord Protect My Child: The Bootleg Series version is fine. Yes.
License to Kill: I love the chorus, love the bridge. The verses aren't much. Maybe.
Clean Cut Kid: The bootleg version never really goes anywhere. I wish he'd stuck with it for a few more takes. The Empire Burlesque version is pretty painful. No.
Union Sundown: No.
Man of Peace: I like this one. It's one of his good eighties rants. Not as good as "I and I" or "Groom's Still Waiting at the Altar" or even "Band of the Hand," but it's got "He can ride down Niagara Falls in the barrels of your skull." Yes.
Neighborhood Bully: No.
Julius and Ethel: It's dumb. I know that. And the Rosenbergs were guilty. But I still enjoy this one. I like its lunkheaded righteousness, or its righteous lunkheadedness. It's one of the most exciting performances in these sessions--"Julius and Ethel" is about the most unpromising choruses you can imagine, but it's a wonder to hear him sing it. And it's got two lines that sum up the whole project, his whole eighties state of mind, as well as any: "Every kingdom got to fall, even the Third Reich / Man can do what he wants, but not for as long as he likes." Yes.
Angel Flying Too Close to the Ground: He just doesn't sing it well. Bad Dylan eighties rehearsal voice. A personal thing, of course. No.
This Was My Love: Ditto. No.
Death Is Not the End: You forgot this one. The grimmest greeting card you'll ever get. I've tried hearing this one as a bar conversation too. I hope the singer had a ride home. Strangely enjoyable sometimes, but no.


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 21:51 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
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I tried different ways to create a definite version of Infidels for many years but…

anyway: For me Infidels has always been the best album that Bob Dylan never released (or even realized)


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 22:18 GMT 
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mojofilter wrote:
we all have to find our own road to salvation

Do we?

It must be hard to co-opt those who have never learned any language into believing in the concept of salvation. Maybe that's why so many "savages" were killed off by Christians.

I don't like Infidels enough to bother. You can blame the "80s drum sound" on Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Hugh Padgham and Steve Lillywhite. Savages all!


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PostPosted: Mon January 21st, 2019, 22:28 GMT 
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slewan wrote:
I tried different ways to create a definite version of Infidels for many years but…

anyway: For me Infidels has always been the best album that Bob Dylan never released (or even realized)


I have got Shot Of Love as just pipping it to that particular title!


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PostPosted: Tue January 22nd, 2019, 00:30 GMT 

Joined: Tue June 21st, 2016, 17:01 GMT
Posts: 288
Ghost Of Lectricity wrote:
mojofilter wrote:
we all have to find our own road to salvation

Do we?

It must be hard to co-opt those who have never learned any language into believing in the concept of salvation. Maybe that's why so many "savages" were killed off by Christians.


That was a joke, son, not a confession of faith. I know that if you take it literally, it can be attacked from two directions: by those who'd say the whole concept of salvation irrelevant or even offensive, and those who'd say that there's only one road, through accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. A fascinating question, I'm sure, but not one I have any interest in arguing. I'll put it philosophically rather than theologically; we'll see who's offended then. Somewhere outside our realm of perception--maybe on the moon--there's an ideal Infidels, which contains the perfect selection of songs in the perfect running order. None of us will ever hear it--even the best songs, the best takes, are only approximations--but we all have our own ideas of what it might be like. It probably contains some sublimated version of "Blind Willie McTell" and "Jokerman"; it probably doesn't contain "Julius and Ethel" in any form; and the drums on it probably don't sound so eighties. None of us really know. But we can all dream of an ideal. Unless we don't even like Infidels. That's fine too.


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PostPosted: Tue January 22nd, 2019, 01:37 GMT 
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Funny game.
I recall liking the entire Infidels when it came out.
Those feelings & positive memories continue.

And as the other stuff appeared, the story livened.
The Outfidels stuff & surrounding era will make a
nice Bootleg Series someday. I’ll buy it!


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PostPosted: Tue January 22nd, 2019, 13:27 GMT 

Joined: Mon October 29th, 2018, 01:22 GMT
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mojofilter wrote:
I think we all have to make our own Infidels, just like we all have to find our own road to salvation. I don't have any suggestions about sequencing, but these are my takes on the songs and which I'd include.

Jokerman: Many people think the Knopfler version is closer to the inspiration, better sung, better mixed, sounds more like an actual human being singing it. That may be. I prefer the album version because I like the lyrics better. Yes.
Blind Willie McTell: The old debate about the band version vs. the piano and guitar version. I'll go with the latter, maybe just for the way he sings "There's a woman by the river." Yes.
I and I: The mix is different in the Knopfler and the album versions. Maybe the Knopfler version is better. But the album version has a single phrase punched in: "smoking down the track" instead of "or something to crack." It makes all the difference. Yes.
Someone's Got a Hold of My Heart: There's a good outtake of this--not just a rehearsal track. It's got more energy than the released version, and I should probably like it better. But to me it doesn't sound like he's more into it so much as that he hasn't found the melody yet and he's just blustering through. Yes.
Foot of Pride: Yes.
Don't Fall Apart on Me Tonight: I could make almost the same comment as about "Someone's Got a Hold of My Heart." The outtake is more aggressive, but he hasn't found the melody for the bridge yet. The most interesting difference: on the outtake, instead of "Don't you remember St. James Street," it's "Don't you remember Napoleon Street." I think what happened is that while "Blind Willie McTell" was still under consideration for the album, it was redundant having St. James Street and the old St. James Hotel on the same album. But after Dylan rejected "Blind Willie McTell," he still, for some reason, wanted to keep old St. James around. Maybe.
Sweetheart Like You: Several lyric variations. I guess I like the one with "the lighthouse around the bend." The only way I can justify this song is to imagine it as a kind of movie dialogue, a man talking up a woman in a bar and getting into some very strange territory. You can redeem a surprising number of Dylan's songs that way; "Is Your Love in Vain" is another. Yes.
Tell Me: A nice companion piece to "What Was It You Wanted." Another bar conversation. I guess I like the one that doesn't have the live dog or dead lion. Maybe.
Lord Protect My Child: The Bootleg Series version is fine. Yes.
License to Kill: I love the chorus, love the bridge. The verses aren't much. Maybe.
Clean Cut Kid: The bootleg version never really goes anywhere. I wish he'd stuck with it for a few more takes. The Empire Burlesque version is pretty painful. No.
Union Sundown: No.
Man of Peace: I like this one. It's one of his good eighties rants. Not as good as "I and I" or "Groom's Still Waiting at the Altar" or even "Band of the Hand," but it's got "He can ride down Niagara Falls in the barrels of your skull." Yes.
Neighborhood Bully: No.
Julius and Ethel: It's dumb. I know that. And the Rosenbergs were guilty. But I still enjoy this one. I like its lunkheaded righteousness, or its righteous lunkheadedness. It's one of the most exciting performances in these sessions--"Julius and Ethel" is about the most unpromising choruses you can imagine, but it's a wonder to hear him sing it. And it's got two lines that sum up the whole project, his whole eighties state of mind, as well as any: "Every kingdom got to fall, even the Third Reich / Man can do what he wants, but not for as long as he likes." Yes.
Angel Flying Too Close to the Ground: He just doesn't sing it well. Bad Dylan eighties rehearsal voice. A personal thing, of course. No.
This Was My Love: Ditto. No.
Death Is Not the End: You forgot this one. The grimmest greeting card you'll ever get. I've tried hearing this one as a bar conversation too. I hope the singer had a ride home. Strangely enjoyable sometimes, but no.

I really enjoyed this, thank you.
For what it's worth, here's my Infidels playlist:

Jokerman- official
License To Kill- alt mix
Blind Willie McTell- electric
Man of Peace- official
I And I- alt mix (version 2 on Dylan/Knopfler Complete Recording Sessions)
Tell Me- same source as I and I
Sweetheart Like You- official
Someone's Got Ahold Of My Heart- alt version (not BS1-3)
Lord Protect My Child
Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight- alt version (Dylan/Knopfler Complete Recording Sessions)


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PostPosted: Tue January 22nd, 2019, 14:56 GMT 

Joined: Sat February 5th, 2005, 18:05 GMT
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I only swapped out songs. I didn't change any of the mixes on the original album, and to a small extent I left Dylan's track sequence intact - songs moved up or moved down only when adjacent songs were dropped or replaced.

Side A:
1. Jokerman
2. Sweetheart Like You
3. Man of Peace
4. Foot of Pride [used the official released on "The Bootleg Series Vol. 1-3"]

Side B:
5. Someone's Got a Hold of My Heart [use the version on "The Genuine Bootleg Series Vol. 1"]
6. Blind Willie McTell [use the version on "The Genuine Bootleg Series Vol. 1" though I wish they had fixed that cough at the start]
7. I and I
8. Don't Fall Apart on Me Tonight

I hate the version of "License to Kill" that was cut at these sessions, it's pretty weak. The version he did on Letterman is pretty awesome and it's too bad they didn't record a version like that in the studio - I would have included it.


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PostPosted: Tue January 22nd, 2019, 15:38 GMT 
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arcadian wrote:



I find that one a very satisfying listen.


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PostPosted: Tue January 22nd, 2019, 15:50 GMT 

Joined: Sat December 27th, 2014, 12:09 GMT
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belfast wrote:
I only swapped out songs. I didn't change any of the mixes on the original album, and to a small extent I left Dylan's track sequence intact - songs moved up or moved down only when adjacent songs were dropped or replaced.

Side A:
1. Jokerman
2. Sweetheart Like You
3. Man of Peace
4. Foot of Pride [used the official released on "The Bootleg Series Vol. 1-3"]

Side B:
5. Someone's Got a Hold of My Heart [use the version on "The Genuine Bootleg Series Vol. 1"]
6. Blind Willie McTell [use the version on "The Genuine Bootleg Series Vol. 1" though I wish they had fixed that cough at the start]
7. I and I
8. Don't Fall Apart on Me Tonight




I'd go with that but with Licence to Kill in place on Man of Peace at track 3. I also prefer the GBS version of Sweetheart Like You, he seems to be forcing the vocal on the released track. Maybe switch tracks 6 and 8 around. It's amazing isn't it, you could make a case that none of the eight tracks on the record were the best option.


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PostPosted: Wed January 23rd, 2019, 09:53 GMT 

Joined: Fri January 5th, 2007, 23:38 GMT
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Why do people consider Death is Not The End grim?

It is the opposite of grim, unless one is an enthusiastic nihilist, of which there are far fewer than asserted.


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PostPosted: Wed January 23rd, 2019, 15:03 GMT 

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Mickvet wrote:
Why do people consider Death is Not The End grim?

It is the opposite of grim, unless one is an enthusiastic nihilist, of which there are far fewer than asserted.


So you're the guy who tells the mother, when they pull her car out of the lake with her kids in it, "There's no need to cry. They're in a better place." Well, whatever cheers you up.


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PostPosted: Wed January 23rd, 2019, 15:20 GMT 
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Yeah, it's such a dangerous song. If Bob sang that to me, I would f*cking kill him.


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PostPosted: Wed January 23rd, 2019, 16:55 GMT 
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It’s not at all the same as saying someone’s pain doesn’t matter. What the hell???


Anyway, I love Death is Not the End, both it’s grimness and hopefulness.


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PostPosted: Wed January 23rd, 2019, 17:37 GMT 

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Snookerman (outtake ’original’)
Non-eyed Willie (electric)
Pride will vanish (take 23)
I is another (album)
Please fall apart but not on me, this time (outtake, ’original’)

After that you click on shuffle, voilà!


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PostPosted: Thu January 24th, 2019, 00:18 GMT 

Joined: Wed November 7th, 2018, 18:13 GMT
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The only Infidels lp song I like over any alt take is Sweetheart Like You. The only officially released bootleg I prefer over alt takes is Foot of Pride. Here's where I am at:

Jokerman (knopfler)
Sweetheart Like You (official)
Blind Willie (knopfler)
Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight (bootlegged)
Lord Protect My Child (Official?)
Someone Got a Hold Of My Heart (bootlegged)
Tell Me (bootlegged)
I and I (knopfler)
Foot of Pride (official)

This seems pretty solid for me. I'd like an exuse to add in Angel Flying Too Close To the Ground, Man of Peace and License To Kill but I'm trying to be conservative.


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PostPosted: Thu January 24th, 2019, 00:20 GMT 

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And for all the infidels on this page talking about salvation and suddenly getting tired, you should listen to Foot of Pride. Dylan wrote it FOR you


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