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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 13:08 GMT 

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Bennyboy wrote:
...I'm not interested in knowing more about cruel people stamping on others - its there everytime I walk outside or switch on TV. What I want is the light and shade of the inner life, something that isn't reductively mean and selfish (in the negative sense), communion with a larger organism of consciousness that is striving towards the light - a prospect, if you like, of healing in the darkness...


I've been mostly a lurker here thus far, but this post really resonates with me. It makes me sad that Dylan's work seems to have focused almost exclusively on the more difficult and painful aspects of life for so many years now. My hope is that for his sake, and ours, he might broaden his view a bit to include life's beauty as well. Even at 71, people can still grow and change! Anyway, thanks, Benny, for articulating this.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 13:12 GMT 

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Bennyboy wrote:
Masked & Anonymous is a godawful, pretentious, risible film. Whatever 'philosophy' is espoused seems to be drawn from the grumpy old man school of barstool bollocks, aiming for profundity but drowning in the puddle of delusion.

And Dylan's acting and singing are utterly awful to boot.

that's exactly what I think about Masked & Anonymous. And I have only seen clips on youtube, enough


and that line I ain't afraid is unpalatable for me too


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 13:16 GMT 
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It's real nice how people review pieces of art that they've not even taken the time to see. Image


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:07 GMT 

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Jill905 wrote:
Bennyboy wrote:
...I'm not interested in knowing more about cruel people stamping on others - its there everytime I walk outside or switch on TV. What I want is the light and shade of the inner life, something that isn't reductively mean and selfish (in the negative sense), communion with a larger organism of consciousness that is striving towards the light - a prospect, if you like, of healing in the darkness...


I've been mostly a lurker here thus far, but this post really resonates with me. It makes me sad that Dylan's work seems to have focused almost exclusively on the more difficult and painful aspects of life for so many years now. My hope is that for his sake, and ours, he might broaden his view a bit to include life's beauty as well. Even at 71, people can still grow and change! Anyway, thanks, Benny, for articulating this.


I appreciate this sentiment, but don't have the same experience of the later material. I think that there is plenty of appreciation for the sweeter side of life, but, as has been expressed by more articulate people than me in recent threads, tempered by reality as opposed to love or righteousness being 'All Good'. He's younger than that now.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:14 GMT 
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There's nothing young about ModBob. Bitter cynicism is hardly a youthful trait.

He even takes the time in this one to inform us all "I'm not dead yet", like one of those old folks you instantly regret meeting in post office queues.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:25 GMT 

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toilandblood546 wrote:
The world that Bob Dylan came of age in, an America with a thriving middle class still high on post war euphoria and NASA, is basically demolished. It's not hard to see how a man who was idealistic in the earlier era has become severely disillusioned. Despite the call for progress brought about in the mid 20th century,the 21st century is a mess of paranoia, consumerism, and distraction. Life might be easier today than ever before, but there is a strong global malaise that is rooted in the mess of violence and dishonesty that is being embraced by all institutions both in government and commercially. The Early Roman Kings are still in power and destroying and hollowing out our towns.

Also, I think it's worthy to note that the first half of the song denounces the violence of the early roman kings and their actions while the second half of the song has the narrator posturing himself as one of these figures. I don't think it's as simple as Dylan glorifying violence. There is a sense of an unreliable narrator who at once realizes the evils of the kings but still is tempted by the lifestyle they lead. By yielding to this temptation, I don't think that Dylan the narrator is being shown as a hero by Dylan the songwriter. I think it's a mistake to assume that Dylan the man is glorifying the narrator of the song. He is actually subtly undercutting him and his boastful claims.


I think this is exactly right.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:27 GMT 
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there's optimism behind his cynicism. The sooner we can accept the world is a shitty place, and why it is so, the sooner we can start doing something about it to make it better. Turning a blind eye, thinking love is all around and all is grand does nothing in terms of picking up trash off the streets. Satisfaction breeds complacency when there is work to be done....


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:29 GMT 

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Troubadour64 wrote:
there's optimism behind his cynicism. The sooner we can accept the world is a shitty place, and why it is so, the sooner we can start doing something about it to make it better. Turning a blind eye, thinking love is all around and all is grand does nothing in terms of picking up trash off the streets. Satisfaction breeds complacency when there is work to be done....


It will be interesting to see it in the context of the entire album, but I don't see much optimism in this track. More disgust than anything else - including disgust at himself (the narrator). It's a reflection of human nature. Most of us would rather be one of the Early Roman Kings if we had the chance than do anything to change the world; we might feel disgust at that but we do it all the same.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:33 GMT 

Joined: Sun August 5th, 2012, 12:46 GMT
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There are whole genres of songs that do not aim to do what Meet Me In The Morning aims to do. To give just one example, disco (and all of its derived styles) seeks mainly to make people feel like dancing.

I could also talk about rap music, but I do not want to upset the deeply emotional people who post on this site, who cannot stand to listen to a song that does not reflect their happy and optimistic view of the world. Their delicate sensibilities must be respected.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:34 GMT 
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yes i don't have any evidence to back up my claim for optimism as of yet (Time out of Mind has hints of it)...but i'm feeling optimistic about it. :wink: Maybe it will be there in his nod to John Lennon.

The first step in solving a problem is recognizing the problem. But seeing a problem in its entirety can also be overwhelming and can lead to depression and inaction just as easily. We have an adaptive nature to put a positive color on situations so that we are more resourceful to act in a difficult environment...


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:40 GMT 
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Agreed - any furnishing of intent on Dylan's stance is pure conjecture. What does he actually say in the song? You can infer all you like, but ultimately there's nothing in these lyrics offering any ironic, distancing or optimistic/pessimistic judgement upon his statements. The words are sung straight as an arrow - it's not like he puts on a comedy voice to sing these lines, you know:


i can strip you of life
strip you of breath
ship you down
to the house of death
one day
you will ask for me
they'll be no one else
that you'll wanna see
bring down my fiddle
tune up my strings
i'm gonna break it wide open
like the early roman kings

i was up on black mountain
the day detroit fell
they killed 'em all off
and they sent 'em to hell
ding dong daddy
you're comin' up short
gonna put you on trial
in a Sicilian court
i had my fun
i had my flings
gonna shake 'em on down
like the early roman kings


Thats sociopath talk. Hopefully the album will come with a cast list so we really can understand that it's The Devil, or a UPS delivery driver, or Cheetah the monkey narrating.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:46 GMT 

Joined: Wed November 12th, 2008, 19:06 GMT
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Bennyboy wrote:

any furnishing of intent on Dylan's stance is pure conjecture.



Well yeah. That kinda goes without saying, and applies to most if not all of his work. That's why message boards were invented, so we can engage in pure conjecture.

I'm just glad that there is still something to talk about.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:48 GMT 
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Quote:

Thats sociopath talk. Hopefully the album will come with a cast list so we really can understand that it's The Devil, or a UPS delivery driver, or Cheetah the monkey narrating.

:lol:

you should know, all you bob haters seemed consumed by his every word, unable to turn the dial. :D
i believe this post is outta line. :D


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:52 GMT 
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His intent seems simply to become the sometimes Profit of Doom. Posturing, pretty much played out, social history commentary and cynicism. These latterday, growling, 20000 leagues under life's belt sermons seem to be piling up like rotting, surplus beets in the corner of his farmyard catalogue. Roll on, John, says I.


Last edited by Train-I-Ride on Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:54 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:52 GMT 

Joined: Sun March 22nd, 2009, 18:31 GMT
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Bennyboy wrote:
There's nothing young about ModBob. Bitter cynicism is hardly a youthful trait.

He even takes the time in this one to inform us all "I'm not dead yet", like one of those old folks you instantly regret meeting in post office queues.



:lol: :lol: :lol: , thanks Bennyboy for my first belly laugh of August :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:56 GMT 
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mikesnyc wrote:
one songwriter (at least for me, your experience may be different) who does that in a disarming, many times 'laugh-out-loud funny but then unexpectedly deep' kind of way is Loudon Wainwright III, particularly his more recent stuff... do you know his stuff (not the one semi-'hit song' he did 'dead skunk' but the stuff he's been doing about families and relationships in the last 20 or 25 years)



History is a wonderful album, just wonderful. I haven't kept up too well with him though - what else is good?


I'm surprised to see so many comments that Dylan should be more optimistic...it's not been much of a trait of his except (maybe) in the very, very early days. I see it more as stark realism shot through with humor and occasionally still a touch of wonder, although when it comes to ERK I can't say I know what it's about or what perspective it's taking - or if it's even taking one. Maybe future listens or having the context of the album will help with that, although it's certainly not required that I know what a Dylan song is "about" for me to get something out of it.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 14:57 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
Quote:

Thats sociopath talk. Hopefully the album will come with a cast list so we really can understand that it's The Devil, or a UPS delivery driver, or Cheetah the monkey narrating.

:lol:

you should know, all you bob haters seemed consumed by his every word, unable to turn the dial. :D
i believe this post is outta line. :D


Ok, Gooms, please give us your considered analysis of the lyrics of the song.

Or the exit is over there.....


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:05 GMT 
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Quote:
you should know, all you bob haters seemed consumed by his every word, unable to turn the dial. :D
i believe this post is outta line. :D
[/quote]

Quote:
Ok, Gooms, please give us your considered analysis of the lyrics of the song.

Or the exit is over there…..



medical assistance is what you need. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:07 GMT 
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smoke wrote:

History is a wonderful album, just wonderful. I haven't kept up too well with him though - what else is good?

The Charlie Poole Project & his latest one, Older Than My Old Man Now.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:08 GMT 

Joined: Wed November 12th, 2008, 19:06 GMT
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Train-I-Ride wrote:
His intent seems simply to become the sometimes Profit of Doom. Posturing, pretty much played out, social history commentary and cynicism. These latterday, growling, 20000 leagues under life's belt sermons seem to be piling up like rotting, surplus beets in the corner of his farmyard catalogue. Roll on, John, says I.



Well-said.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:09 GMT 
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goombay wrote:

medical assistance is what you need. :wink:


And you base this diagnosis on what?


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:13 GMT 
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Bennyboy wrote:
Agreed - any furnishing of intent on Dylan's stance is pure conjecture. What does he actually say in the song? You can infer all you like, but ultimately there's nothing in these lyrics offering any ironic, distancing or optimistic/pessimistic judgement upon his statements. The words are sung straight as an arrow - it's not like he puts on a comedy voice to sing these lines, you know:


i can strip you of life
strip you of breath
ship you down
to the house of death
one day
you will ask for me
they'll be no one else
that you'll wanna see

bring down my fiddle
tune up my strings
i'm gonna break it wide open
like the early roman kings

i was up on black mountain
the day detroit fell
they killed 'em all off
and they sent 'em to hell
ding dong daddy
you're comin' up short
gonna put you on trial
in a Sicilian court
i had my fun
i had my flings
gonna shake 'em on down
like the early roman kings


Thats sociopath talk. Hopefully the album will come with a cast list so we really can understand that it's The Devil, or a UPS delivery driver, or Cheetah the monkey narrating.


It's interesting that you pointed that verse out. the part where i highlighted in blue I remember hearing and thinking of it as one of those moments where Dylan's doing his Doublespeak - pushing the song's narrative, but also making a cryptic reference to what he does as a songwriter. building on the idea that he could make a person weep or take the steam out of their sail with the power of his words & music. But maybe he's not that self - absorbed. maybe he is.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:15 GMT 
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Back to the ol' sociopath argument. More than one way to skin a cat. If you can't make direct accusations, let's accuse tihe narrarator in the song. Or is it Bob that is being labeled this way again?


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:21 GMT 
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raging_glory wrote:
Back to the ol' sociopath argument. More than one way to skin a cat. If you can't make direct accusations, let's accuse tihe narrarator in the song. Or is it Bob that is being labeled this way again?



there has to be something wrong with dedicating your life to the very artist you dislike the most. :idea:
bob continues to be the best, learn to accept it and move on. i mean, its not like their anti bob diatribes are gonna change anything. :D they could learn to like something other than the things they hate. :D


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:23 GMT 
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Please give us your considered analysis of the lyrics of the song, if it pleases you.


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