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PostPosted: Fri July 3rd, 2015, 22:46 GMT 
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Joined: Thu September 18th, 2008, 16:41 GMT
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Location: Aisle of Asda
Hungryhoss wrote:
Or you could just watch and enjoy it.

Yes, but if everything Dylan was taken at face value, he would not be regarded as the genius that many think he is & this site, along with many others, would be defunct.
Like any art form, you take out of it what you wish & allow others the freedom to do the same, without prejudice. In Dylan's case, less is not more.


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PostPosted: Sat July 4th, 2015, 00:38 GMT 
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hollowhorn wrote:
Hungryhoss wrote:
Or you could just watch and enjoy it.

Yes, but if everything Dylan was taken at face value, he would not be regarded as the genius that many think he is & this site, along with many others, would be defunct.
Like any art form, you take out of it what you wish & allow others the freedom to do the same, without prejudice. In Dylan's case, less is not more.


Less than what?


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PostPosted: Sat July 4th, 2015, 03:13 GMT 

Joined: Thu November 13th, 2014, 04:37 GMT
Posts: 754
Location: Oregon Diaspora
Hungryhoss wrote:

Less than what?


Hoss...do not talk so quickly; you'll induce an overdue concussion. The way I see it: you have, in your closet, found a 1955 page from a Weekly Reader in which you have scribbled your yearning for a new collection of crayons to replace the only one you have. Taking a pair of scissors (unfortunately it lacks a blade, so you create a saw), you cut the page into four pieces, shuffle and re-shuffle over and over. After 1:00 a.m. (remember: the little hand is on the '1', the big hand on '12'), you put the four pieces back into position, thinking you now have the entire page. Unless I have forgotten my Pythagoras, you have, now, less than 'what'...
STEPHAN PICKERING / Chafetz Chayim benAvraham


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PostPosted: Sat July 4th, 2015, 05:30 GMT 
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stephanpickering wrote:
Hungryhoss wrote:

Less than what?


Hoss...do not talk so quickly; you'll induce an overdue concussion. The way I see it: you have, in your closet, found a 1955 page from a Weekly Reader in which you have scribbled your yearning for a new collection of crayons to replace the only one you have. Taking a pair of scissors (unfortunately it lacks a blade, so you create a saw), you cut the page into four pieces, shuffle and re-shuffle over and over. After 1:00 a.m. (remember: the little hand is on the '1', the big hand on '12'), you put the four pieces back into position, thinking you now have the entire page. Unless I have forgotten my Pythagoras, you have, now, less than 'what'...
STEPHAN PICKERING / Chafetz Chayim benAvraham


Stephan, I'm not the one who talks almost entirely about the views of others on the artist and hardly ever about the actual art.


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PostPosted: Sat July 4th, 2015, 22:20 GMT 

Joined: Thu November 13th, 2014, 04:37 GMT
Posts: 754
Location: Oregon Diaspora
Hungryhoss wrote:
Stephan, I'm not the one who talks almost entirely about the views of others on the artist and hardly ever about the actual art.


Correction: you are one of several who never discuss the 'actual art'...

STEPHAN PICKERING / Chafetz Chayim benAvraham


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PostPosted: Sat July 4th, 2015, 23:16 GMT 

Joined: Thu November 13th, 2014, 04:37 GMT
Posts: 754
Location: Oregon Diaspora
My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:
The first thing you have to accept about "Renaldo And Clara" is that it is not a film "about" the 1975 tour. It is a movie about relationships and love and its many facets. Just like the movie that inspired it – "Les Enfants du Paradis/Children Of Paradise". "R & C" takes place in the world of rock music, "Children Of Paradise" takes place in the world of theatre, but "R & C" is not "about" rock music, just as "Children Of Paradise" is not "about" theatre.
As with all of Dylan's works (music, movies, literature, painting) you should not watch the movie and rate it based on your preconceived ideas of what it "should" be like. You should always regard Dylan's work as a journey that will teach you something. Often it teaches you something about something that you didn't even know existed.

*****

In order to get into the film it helps to study the movie that inspired it: the French movie "Les Enfants du Paradis/Children Of Paradise" (1945). A movie that also uses stage performances to comment on the relationships between the protagonists, just like "R & C". "Les Enfants du Paradis/Children Of Paradise" also is a very long movie (approx. 200 mins). The famous "Rolling Thunder Review" logotype was inspired by the opening title card of "Les Enfants du Paradis/Children Of Paradise". Both films feature one of the leading characters in whiteface, both have a "woman in white", both repeatedly use flowers as a prominent symbol, both alternate between on-stage, back-stage and "real life" scenes, the dialogue in "R & C" shares similarities with the dialogue in "Les Enfants du Paradis/Children Of Paradise" and both films use a cubist approach in that they present the main characters from the differing perpectives of the other characters.

You need to know "Les Enfants du Paradis/Children Of Paradise" in order to fully understand what "Renaldo And Clara" is all about.


Shalom & Boker tov...I agree with your main premise, with some qualifying corrections. In my monograph-in-progress, Chapter 6 is The seferotics of Renaldo & Clara, the longest chapter. I spent over a year with Renaldo & Clara, primarily because the existing synopses are inaccurate and incomplete (in the case of Sid Griffin, intellectually vacuous). The other reason is that Reb Allen Ginsberg's estate will not allow access to the draft mss. he was working on (then abandoned through lack of support) for an analysis of the film. The only part of the draft that was printed, through the courtesy of Reb Ginsberg via Barry Miles, was the introduction, which appeared in 1989 in The Telegraph. I was, then, forced to sit with the film, and make copious notes of each scene in detail.

There was more than Bob giving homage to Jean-Louis Berrault in 'white-face', or the stage-curtain logo re/membering the 1945 film title card. As Bob/Shabtai will admit, when asked, the months of editing the film were the most concentrated effort he has ever exerted. It was non-stop: watching the footage, making notes on index cards, the thematic/colour classifications, characters, etc. Les Enfants du Paradis was, in actuality, one part (however important) of a canvas, a canvas of linkages. Jacques Prevert was well-aware of the exterminations of Yehu'dim -- the vast majority of the film crew were Yehu'dit resistance fighters (including Joseph Kosma, who composed the music). It is no accident Jacques Prevert, the poet who wrote the screenplay, and his words, are in Shabtai/Bob's 'Sinatra' album.

Thus, we have two paradigm shifting ontologies in Renaldo & Clara: the pre-1945 Sho'ah which is, in actuality, the disguised milieu of the film, and the post-Auschwitz implosions of consciousness. This is highlighted in Masked & Anonymous, Renaldo & Clara's thematic 'sequel'. Another component for visualised symbols was, of course, Wilkie Collins.

For my research, these sources are a pre-requisite to anyone here who wants to really grasp the panoramic canvases of both Les Enfants du Paradis and Renaldo & Clara.

Mirella Jona Affron, 1978. Les Enfants du Paradis:[play of genres. Cinema Journal 18(1):45-52

David Aldstadt, 2001. Arletty, star image, and the return of the gaze: gazing back from Marcel Carne's Les Enfants du Paradis. West Virginia University Philological Papers 47:67-70

Anon., n.d. Les Enfants du Paradis. fiche technique/synopsis/revue de presse. http://www.Marcel-Carne.com this is a wellspring of photographs and data

Claire Blakeway, 1990. Jacques Prevert: popular French theatre & cinema (Farleigh Dickinson University Press/Associated University Presses), 1-218

DeWitt Bodeen, n.d. The Children of Paradise. http://www.filmreference.com

Helen T. Buttel, 1983. Intersecting discourses in Les Enfants du Paradis. Ph.D. dissertation, Temple University, 1-180

Marcel Carne & Jacques Prevert, 2012. Les Enfants du Paradis [ed. Laurent Mannoni & Stephanie Salmon] (Editions X. Baral/La Cinematheque/Fondation Jerome Seydoux-Pathe), 1-260

Marcel Carne, Jacques Prevert, Didier Decoin, Gerard Vaugeois, 1974. Les enfants du Paradis (Balland), 1-409

Wilkie Collins, 1859-1860 [never cited as the author]. The woman in white. All the Year Round. A Weekly Journal [London] # 31-#70 [2 November 1859-25 August 1860]

Wilkie Collins, 1996. The woman in white [ed. John Sutherland from the original mss.] (Oxford University Press), 1-702

Stuart Fernie, n.d. Reflections on "Les Enfants du Paradis". http://www.StuartFernie.com

Jill Forbes, 1997. Les Enfants du Paradis (British Film Institute), 1-78

Russell Ganim, 2001. Prevert reads Shakespeare: Lecenaire as Iago in Les Enfants du Paradis. Comparative Literature Studies 38(1):46-67

Janus Films, 2012. Children of Paradise Press Notes -- Janus Films. http://www.JanusFilms.com/paradise/paradisenotes [25pp]

Jean-Pierre Jeancolas, 1989. Beneath the despair, the show goes on: Marcel Carne's Les Enfants du Paradis, pp. 78-88, IN: Susan Hayward & Ginette Vincendeau, eds., 1989. French film: texts & contexts (Routledge), 1-309

Philippe Morisson, 2006. Les Enfants du Paradis. http://www.dvdclassik.com

Marcel Oms, 1979. Les enfants du paradis: La Mutation cinematographique des melodrame. Les Cahiers de la Cinematheque # 28:141-148

Jacques Prevert, 1967. Les Enfants du Paradis. L'Avant-scene. Cinema # 72:1-118

Jacques Prevert, 1968. Children of paradise [trans. Dinah Brooke] (Simon & Schuster), 1-218

Jacques Prevert, 1999. Les Enfants du Paradis: le scenario original de Jacques Prevert, un film de Marcel Carne [ed. Bernard Chardere] (Jean Pierre de Monza), 1-215

Jacques Prevert, 2012. Les Enfants du Paradis: scenario (Gallimard/Arte editions), 1-172 [facsimile of original mss.]

C.S. Ross, 2010. Othello and the French tradition of Les enfants du paradis. Forum for World Literature Studies 2(2):172-180

Christine Sellier, 1992. Les Enfants du Paradis, Marcel Carne et Jacques Preverte: etude critique (Nathan), 1-127

Girish Shambu, 2001. Les Enfants du Paradis. senses of cinema Issue 12
sensesofcinema.com

Brian Stonehill, 1991. Forbidden games [interview with Marcel Carne]. Film Comment 27(6):58-61

E.B. Tuck, 1979. The birth of Children of Paradise. American Film 4(9):42-49

E.B. Tuck, 1989. Child of paradise: Marcel Carne & the golden age of French cinema (Harvard University Press), 1-495

Ginette Vincendeau, 1997. Paradise regained. Sight & Sound 7(7):12-16

Anat Zanger, 1998. Next on your screen: the double identity of the trailer. Semiotica 120(1-2):207-230
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / Chafetz Chayim benAvraham


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PostPosted: Sun July 5th, 2015, 01:55 GMT 

Joined: Thu November 13th, 2014, 04:37 GMT
Posts: 754
Location: Oregon Diaspora
Shalom & Erev tov, a correction:

DeWitt Bodeen, n.d. Les Enfants du Paradis (The Children of Paradise). http://www.filmreference.com

He perished in 1988, and I do not have a precise date as to when he composed the text.

One can add:

Laura Mulvey, 2003. Jill Forbes's Les Enfants du Paradis. French Cultural Studies 14(3):278-297
Ms Mulvey, one of the most formidable womanist film scholars (she puts to shame the spiteful posturing of Pauline Kael), was never an admirer of the 1945 film...until she read Ms Forbes's BFI book, which totally changed her mind...

STEPHAN PICKERING / Chafetz Chayim benAvraham


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PostPosted: Tue July 7th, 2015, 03:04 GMT 

Joined: Thu November 13th, 2014, 04:37 GMT
Posts: 754
Location: Oregon Diaspora
Shalom & Erev tov...

I received a nice note from Stuart Fernie in the High Lands of ScotLand, and offer an emendation to a bibliographical listing slated for my monograph-in-progress:

Stuart Fernie, 2000. Reflections on "Les Enfants du Paradis". StuartFernie.org/enfants.htm

It is one of only a handful of pieces on the film published since 1945 that actually possesses insight and critical thinking...which is far more than I can about what I've read elsewhere on a thread re: the 'bootleg series' from individuals saying only they know, not Shabtai/Bob, what he should be releasing because only they know what is his 'best' material. Alas, I know when there is a drastic need of a colonic shower...

STEPHAN PICKERING / Chafetz Chayim benAvraham


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PostPosted: Wed October 19th, 2016, 19:09 GMT 

Joined: Mon December 28th, 2015, 19:52 GMT
Posts: 63
Location: Swansea, Wales, UK
Anyone know where the film can be seen online these days?

I sat through Hearts of fire, for some reason, so I should really go for R & C.


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