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Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace
https://www.expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=55955
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Author:  effort [ Fri January 28th, 2011, 20:49 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

It's from an album that I don't like, but yes with a few alternations and such it may be worthwhile - performance-wise.

Thing is, considering the big, I gather, 'mid-life crisis' Dylan was going through at the time he wasn't particularly successful at getting it through in any 'universal' way.

Jokerman and Blind Willie McTell might have made two flip sides of a coin of expressing a world view, adding the rest of the tunes to fill out an album - seems like a man of peace, too bad.

Author:  susanelectro [ Fri January 28th, 2011, 20:55 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Obama fits the bill pretty well too if we are going to get into that kind of bullshit.

Author:  Untrodden Path [ Sat January 29th, 2011, 00:02 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

susanelectro wrote:
Obama fits the bill pretty well too if we are going to get into that kind of bullshit.
Are you refering to the Nobel Peace Prize for doing absolutely nothing?

Author:  Long Johnny [ Sat January 29th, 2011, 01:42 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Warren Peace wrote:
Long Johnny wrote:
"Serve Somebody" doesn't even have to be read as a "religious" song to work,


Wait, what? The point of the song is that you either worship God or are in service to the Devil. It's almost literally black and white. Sure, you can stretch things out to mean "the devils on our own lives" or whatever, but to Dylan, it's THE Devil and THE Lord.


I'm not talking about what Dylan "meant" or intended. I'm talking about the song and it isn't at all stretching it to say that it has a broader, more universal, meaning. I hear it as a slap at the people who think that there's no difference between the political parties and therefore refuse to participate in the political process. There is no neutral ground. The maxim of the law is "Qui tacet consentit" - silence equals consent. If you stay silent that in itself is taking a side. Put another way, "You got to serve somebody."

Not just through Dylan's writing but through almost all narrative - songs, stories, films, novels - there is that dichotomy between DARK and LIGHT. It sometimes manifests itself as URBAN vs RURAL "I come from the city, I live in the town...." The woman in black vs the woman in white in the film "The Natural." There are zillions of examples.

I see "It may be the devil or it may be the lord" as just a variation on that, while I'm not suggesting anything about what Dylan intends the meaning to be.

Author:  Long Johnny [ Sat January 29th, 2011, 01:45 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Untrodden Path wrote:
susanelectro wrote:
Obama fits the bill pretty well too if we are going to get into that kind of bullshit.
Are you refering to the Nobel Peace Prize for doing absolutely nothing?


Ending "The Bush Doctrine" as the principle of US foreign policy should have gotten him TWO, Chumlee.

Author:  Untrodden Path [ Sat January 29th, 2011, 02:01 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

susanelectro wrote:
Obama fits the bill pretty well too if we are going to get into that kind of bullshit.
Untrodden Path wrote:
Are you refering to the Nobel Peace Prize for doing absolutely nothing?


Long Johnny wrote:
Ending "The Bush Doctrine" as the principle of US foreign policy should have gotten him TWO, Chumlee.

:lol:

Agreed, which is something indeed.

Author:  galetune [ Tue February 1st, 2011, 08:49 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Long Johnny wrote:
"Serve Somebody" doesn't even have to be read as a "religious" song to work


Yes, it's easily done, you just close your eyes and pretend you are not misreading it.

Author:  The Mighty Monkey Of Mim [ Tue February 1st, 2011, 19:53 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

GOTTA SERVE SOMEBODY is not concerned with religion at all, really. It's concerned with morality and good versus evil, and it uses familiar metaphorical personifications associated with religion: the Devil and the Lord. But all it's really saying is that no matter who you are or what you do, it's up to you to choose whether you're going to contribute positively or negatively to the world. Are you going to do right or wrong? No one gets to abstain, we all affect others, whether we're trying to or not. At no point does it suggest that only Christians are serving God or that Jews and Muslims are serving the Devil, at no point does it even suggest that you have to believe they even exist as more than points on a compass, mythological characters that figure into an existential framework. All the song really asks you to do is consider your own motivations.

Author:  Long Johnny [ Wed February 2nd, 2011, 05:39 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

galetune wrote:
Long Johnny wrote:
"Serve Somebody" doesn't even have to be read as a "religious" song to work


Yes, it's easily done, you just close your eyes and pretend you are not misreading it.


You seem to be saying that reading it as an expression of the idea that any action you take - including a refusal to act - is still going to result in your support of one side or the other is somehow ridiculous? Really? I think you're being very silly.

The song says that no matter who you are, no matter what you say, you're still going to serve somebody - it may be good or it may be evil, but you're still serving one or the other.

I'm talking about the song, I'm not talking about whatever meaning Dylan intended when he wrote it.

In other words, the APPEAL of the song is not limited to a simple religious reading. :)

Author:  marker [ Wed February 2nd, 2011, 08:32 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

And again, in this comparison you provide with Gotta Serve Somebody, what is the huge difference between this song and Man Of Peace? Besides that you like one and not the other...

Author:  iamhere [ Wed February 2nd, 2011, 17:39 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

yeah i was afraid that writting Got to Serve somebody to become a problem. I just mentioned it because i feel that the basic imprint of Serve somebody reminds me a lot of the simple point of Man of Peace. How serve somebody uses many stanza to say the contiuning refrain, while Man of Peace does the same. Basicly the point is that Satan comes as a man of Peace and we all know we got to serve somebody. But in the end i like Man of Peace better because the imagery is more bright and word play is neater, while Serve somebody is a good spit of improvised lines of people and names. Sorry for taking the attention away from Man of Peace.

Also i want to know for the same reason you find Serve somebody holds a strong appeal to none believers can't you apply the same to Man of Peace. Don't you think evil comes easily and gently to you in a mask?

Author:  Warren Peace [ Wed February 2nd, 2011, 22:01 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

The Mighty Monkey Of Mim wrote:
GOTTA SERVE SOMEBODY is not concerned with religion at all, really. It's concerned with morality and good versus evil, and it uses familiar metaphorical personifications associated with religion: the Devil and the Lord. But all it's really saying is that no matter who you are or what you do, it's up to you to choose whether you're going to contribute positively or negatively to the world. Are you going to do right or wrong? No one gets to abstain, we all affect others, whether we're trying to or not. At no point does it suggest that only Christians are serving God or that Jews and Muslims are serving the Devil, at no point does it even suggest that you have to believe they even exist as more than points on a compass, mythological characters that figure into an existential framework. All the song really asks you to do is consider your own motivations.


You're really letting the song off the hook, there. I dig the tune, but we have to recognize what's behind it. This track wasn't created in a vacuum -- it's a part of a larger record. You're absolutely right about your "no point" points, but that's only valid if we blind ourselves to everything Dylan was doing. Heck, you don't have to go further than the next song:

"You were telling him about Buddha, you were telling him about Mohammed
in the same breath
You never mentioned one time the Man who came and died a criminal’s death"

"Ya either got faith or ya got unbelief and there ain’t no neutral ground"


Coincidence is the only reason lines like this aren't in Serve Somebody. They easily could have been. The same worldview informs both. You and I might appreciate a more multicultural slant, but neutral ground ain't what '79 Dylan's about.

Author:  Long Johnny [ Wed February 2nd, 2011, 23:10 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

marker wrote:
And again, in this comparison you provide with Gotta Serve Somebody, what is the huge difference between this song and Man Of Peace? Besides that you like one and not the other...


"Serve Somebody" is not limited to religious reading, it has a meaning that is much broader. "Man Of Peace" is a mediocre bible study lesson. It is chained to specific scriptural references and chained to a very conservative last days apocalyptic Christianity, a fact well documented by Dylan's infamous raps during his 79-80 tour. I saw him in Charleston WV in Feb 80 and he spent a good 10-15 minutes telling us the end of the word was just around the corner and we were all perdition bound. It's why I like the one and not the other, but liking it or not liking it is beside the point.

Author:  John B. Stetson [ Wed February 2nd, 2011, 23:59 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Long Johnny wrote:
marker wrote:
And again, in this comparison you provide with Gotta Serve Somebody, what is the huge difference between this song and Man Of Peace? Besides that you like one and not the other...


"Serve Somebody" is not limited to religious reading, it has a meaning that is much broader. "Man Of Peace" is a mediocre bible study lesson. It is chained to specific scriptural references and chained to a very conservative last days apocalyptic Christianity, a fact well documented by Dylan's infamous raps during his 79-80 tour. I saw him in Charleston WV in Feb 80 and he spent a good 10-15 minutes telling us the end of the word was just around the corner and we were all perdition bound. It's why I like the one and not the other, but liking it or not liking it is beside the point.


I suppose so. And yet, whenever I hear Man of Peace, I usually think of my boss. (he's a masterful smiley machiavellian bastard--but you gotta serve somebody)

Author:  iamhere [ Thu February 3rd, 2011, 00:30 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Long Johnny wrote:
marker wrote:
And again, in this comparison you provide with Gotta Serve Somebody, what is the huge difference between this song and Man Of Peace? Besides that you like one and not the other...


"Serve Somebody" is not limited to religious reading, it has a meaning that is much broader. "Man Of Peace" is a mediocre bible study lesson. It is chained to specific scriptural references and chained to a very conservative last days apocalyptic Christianity, a fact well documented by Dylan's infamous raps during his 79-80 tour. I saw him in Charleston WV in Feb 80 and he spent a good 10-15 minutes telling us the end of the word was just around the corner and we were all perdition bound. It's why I like the one and not the other, but liking it or not liking it is beside the point.


again i ask you how is it that you can see diffrent appeal in serve somebody and not in man of peace? The refrains can be looked at the same way you are looking at serve somebody. It is up to much appeal as any other. a lot of people talk about satan and god, they are two figures that are universaly known. You said how serve somebody is about a choice of good and evil, if thats how you want to look at it. But can't you just as easily again subtract satan with evil in man of peace? evil comes peacfuly? it works.

Author:  galetune [ Thu February 3rd, 2011, 16:56 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Long Johnny wrote:
The song says that no matter who you are, no matter what you say, you're still going to serve somebody - it may be good or it may be evil, but you're still serving one or the other.


You are absolutely right. However, the question of good and evil ultimately boils down to the theological question of the existence or non-existence of God. If there is no God, if life on this planet is the result of random evolution and blind forces of nature, good and evil lose their meaning, and the only morality is the law the jungle and the survival of the fittest and fattest.

Author:  smoke [ Thu February 3rd, 2011, 17:31 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Long Johnny wrote:
The song says that no matter who you are, no matter what you say, you're still going to serve somebody - it may be good or it may be evil, but you're still serving one or the other.



I understand you're not concerning yourself with Dylan's intentions, but it seems strange to ignore that the point (in context of his views at the time) is almost the exact opposite: You can be a "good" person, but if you don't support the lord you are helping the devil.

Author:  galetune [ Thu February 3rd, 2011, 18:05 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Long Johnny wrote:
The basic message is that if anyone helps end wars and brings any sort of peace to troubled areas of the globe, oooooo! It's probably the DEVIL!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:

Written when he was still in that cult.


Could it be you are exaggerating ever so slightly? Pay attention to the words "could, be", "can be", "sometimes".

I think the basic message is you can't judge from appearances. Hitler, the fürer, posed as a man of peace in his public speeches, and priests and ministers may pose as men of God, when they really are enemies of Christ. Perhaps he was even referring to to some folks in the "cult".

Author:  marker [ Thu November 23rd, 2017, 17:25 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

A Christian song that ended up on Infidels...I've always liked this one!!
In fact, here's a couple of bad-ass entries from that 1984 tour.
I always loved that tour when I get to listening...Bob still sounds as terrific as he did in 81
and Im a huge fan of Infidels so it only makes sense.

Offenbach Germany
June 11 1984
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ac465xkc1 ... _Peace.mp3

And here's video of a really fiery one from Rotterdam a week earlier:
https://youtu.be/zMb7ba4U_Xg?t=47m48s

Author:  Still Go Barefoot [ Thu March 1st, 2018, 00:33 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Such a strong message.
It’s always right there and we miss it.
Hidden in plain view!
Dealing with one right now.

Author:  Mickvet [ Thu March 1st, 2018, 08:58 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

"A Christian song that ended up on Infidels...":

Read recently in A T Bradford's 'Yonder Comes Sin' that, since Dylan was prohibited by Columbia from recording any more Christian albums, he decided to record an album of songs about the devil instead.

Author:  Untrodden Path [ Sat March 3rd, 2018, 13:26 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Mickvet wrote:
"A Christian song that ended up on Infidels...":

Read recently in A T Bradford's 'Yonder Comes Sin' that, since Dylan was prohibited by Columbia from recording any more Christian albums, he decided to record an album of songs about the devil instead.

I had always considered Infidels Dylan's awakening to evangelical America. This album may be a double entendre directed at Columbia as well.

I consider Infidels a Christian album... Hence, his "trilogy" is a quadrilogy... Shot of Love is moving in a different direction from Slow Train Comin' and Saved. The Christian experience has been tempered, whether by fans, personal experience, the record company... but it is certainly not the same.

Man of Peace is a fun song. I always viewed it as a reflection of Reagan... mainly "the Fuhrer" part but like so many of Dylan's songs, Man of Peace is likely a composite of people, ideas, and images.

Author:  Mickvet [ Sat March 3rd, 2018, 14:45 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Untrodden Path wrote:
Mickvet wrote:
"A Christian song that ended up on Infidels...":

Read recently in A T Bradford's 'Yonder Comes Sin' that, since Dylan was prohibited by Columbia from recording any more Christian albums, he decided to record an album of songs about the devil instead.

I had always considered Infidels Dylan's awakening to evangelical America. This album may be a double entendre directed at Columbia as well.

I consider Infidels a Christian album... Hence, his "trilogy" is a quadrilogy... Shot of Love is moving in a different direction from Slow Train Comin' and Saved. The Christian experience has been tempered, whether by fans, personal experience, the record company... but it is certainly not the same.

Man of Peace is a fun song. I always viewed it as a reflection of Reagan... mainly "the Fuhrer" part but like so many of Dylan's songs, Man of Peace is likely a composite of people, ideas, and images.


I'm surprised that you would reduce a song that deals with such important themes as this one to your own partisan political views. I'm sure Dylan, at this point in his life, didn't give a damn for such things. More particularly, it is not likely that he would glibly attribute the title of one who attempted to wipe out his people to a legitimately, democratically-elected American president, particularly one who was heir to the legacy of the one he claimed in Chronicles to be the politician he most admired.

Author:  Marconakken [ Sat March 3rd, 2018, 18:06 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

I don't know what to think of it. If someone who seems to be good can be the devil in disguise even without being conscious of it himself, than how can anyone be blamed?
Dylan himself might be Satan. It makes the whole thing quite pointless.
Somewhere in this thread someone says that good and evil can only exist if you presuppose the existence of God. I don't get that either.
It might be my fault, but I'm often flabbergasted by the childlike, fundamental, almost 17th century religious opinions of Americans.
As if God has a special purpose in mind for America.
Oprah Winfrey considers running for president, but she's waiting for a sign of God...
Ah, come on.

Author:  Mickvet [ Sat March 3rd, 2018, 20:14 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Track Talk 240 Man Of Peace

Marconakken wrote:
I don't know what to think of it. If someone who seems to be good can be the devil in disguise even without being conscious of it himself, than how can anyone be blamed?
Dylan himself might be Satan. It makes the whole thing quite pointless.
Somewhere in this thread someone says that good and evil can only exist if you presuppose the existence of God. I don't get that either.
It might be my fault, but I'm often flabbergasted by the childlike, fundamental, almost 17th century religious opinions of Americans.
As if God has a special purpose in mind for America.
Oprah Winfrey considers running for president, but she's waiting for a sign of God...
Ah, come on.


"... good and evil can only exist if you presuppose the existence of God. I don't get that either."

If you presuppose the non-existence of God, then the notion of evil is no more than one's personal opinion. On what authority does one declare a paedophile evil, in the absence of a transcendent morality upon which everyone can agree? If, for example, The State, that is no guarantee of moral excellence-the 20th Century demonstrated that clearly, not to mention the Islamic State and many others current. Anyway, The State is ultimately no more than an amalgam of various human opinions. The only 'moral' questions that matter, based on this worldview, an atheist really needs to ask himself are: 'what do I really want to do?' and, if relevant, 'can I get away with it?' Anything else is either a relict of an obsolete world-view or mere virtue-signalling. If existence is purposeless, pointless and meaningless, morality can have neither purpose, point nor meaning. Without morality, notions of good and evil are utterly defunct.

"...good can be the devil in disguise even without being conscious of it himself":

Someone can say or do something objectively evil, without subjectively realising it. The statement or action remains evil, the perpetrator may have reduced or no culpability. The problem is ignorance of the truth, which may be wholly unintentional or a deliberate effort to remain ignorant.

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