Expecting Rain

Go to main page
It is currently Sun September 23rd, 2018, 06:56 GMT

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 10:16 GMT 

Joined: Thu August 2nd, 2007, 11:08 GMT
Posts: 47
Location: Hertfordshire UK
Untrodden Path wrote:
To get Bob back on guitar more than one song a night. Charlie and Stu are good but their soloing lacks the unpredictable, mind-bending viruosity that Bob brings to the stage. What can we do to encourage him to leave the keyboard (for at least) to play more guitar?

Or will Bob just continue to do his own thing, ignoring the whims and wishes of his devoted minions? :(


A few years back, I remember people posting about when will we ever see Bob back on the keyboards again !!

There is absolutley nothing you can do to encorage him to do anything, he has been ignoring his devoted minions and doing his own thing for over 40 years, and its gone pretty well for him, you are not going to change him now.......no way no how !!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 10:49 GMT 

Joined: Mon July 6th, 2009, 21:29 GMT
Posts: 1218
The Mighty Monkey Of Mim wrote:
I was merely responding to the way you framed it, CShoe.


No, you were responding to something I did not say. When I say "what's supposed to be a professional performance" I simply mean that those who are witnessing it have paid a lot of money to do so, and that what happens musically during that performance should probably be a cut or two above what any random eight year old would be able to pull off with about five minutes' practice.

But you come back and imply that I want Bob's show to be a "professional performance" that strives to conform as closely as possible to a carefully rehearsed standard of familiarity , which is not what I said at all.

Do you really not understand this?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 11:40 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue April 1st, 2008, 16:38 GMT
Posts: 7654
Location: The North Country
Though I am not a musician, I assume it is easier on the fingers to play piano than guitar, and organ than piano. At 100 shows per year, and as he's approaching 70, my guess is that there's no going back.

(Untrodden--I plop in any show from 1998 into my cd player to hear some glorious noodling--wondrous, no? :D )


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 11:40 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu January 24th, 2008, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 18476
Location: Where the swift don't win the race
Woody wrote:
Jump onstage and steal the keyboard. Duh.
So far, this seems to be the one response with the most merit.

Any volunteers?

John B. Stetson wrote:
(Untrodden--I plop in any show from 1998 into my cd player to hear some glorious noodling--wondrous, no? :D )
I have the November 19, 1999 Atlantic City (NJ) Casino Sands show on at this moment.

Wondrous?!

Yes!! :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 12:06 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed December 8th, 2004, 17:05 GMT
Posts: 4839
Location: dead galaxy mirrored in an ice mirage
this Cshoe thread is no fun. when do the insults come? the "dumbass"-es, "retard"'s, etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 12:19 GMT 

Joined: Mon July 6th, 2009, 21:29 GMT
Posts: 1218
The words "dumbass" and "retard" did not appear in this thread until you used them, sir.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 13:11 GMT 

Joined: Wed April 13th, 2005, 14:09 GMT
Posts: 4058
Location: the mountains I got lost in
Cshoe: Once a troll always a troll. trolling troll is trolling.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 13:50 GMT 

Joined: Mon September 10th, 2007, 17:11 GMT
Posts: 1375
At least CShoe is constructing well-stated responses and not simply calling someone a troll and adding absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Bob is trying to work within him limitations as an organ player. When he falls flat on his face, CShoe (correct me if I'm wrong), finds that to be disrespectful to the people who paid money to see him play, while others take it as just one part of the pig, and have no problem waiting for the next moment of excellence (and you cannot, CShoe, deny that those do happen) to come along.

Is it any more or less than that?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 14:28 GMT 

Joined: Mon July 6th, 2009, 21:29 GMT
Posts: 1218
slocastro wrote:
Bob is trying to work within him limitations as an organ player. When he falls flat on his face, CShoe (correct me if I'm wrong), finds that to be disrespectful to the people who paid money to see him play, while others take it as just one part of the pig, and have no problem waiting for the next moment of excellence (and you cannot, CShoe, deny that those do happen) to come along.


Not so much disrespectful as incompetent.

But what's "the pig" supposed to represent, all of Bob's organ playing, or the whole of the performance that constitutes the Bob Dylan show? In other words, are you saying that you accept Bob's falling flat on the organ in the larger picture of his organ playing because sometimes it is excellent, or that you accept his poor organ playing because other elements of the show achieve moments of excellence? I think this question is pretty central to the issue of the legitimacy of Bob's organ playing. If you meant the former, I disagree completely. The best case scenario for Bob on organ is to simply not ruin the song. Even modern Bob apologists acknowledge this in the language they use in the odd instance that they say something positive about it--his organ playing is perennially hailed as "getting much better", "actually sounding pretty good on some songs", etc. --tacit acknowledgments that when it comes to Bob on organ, it's almost wholly a matter of damage control and hoping for the best. I defy you to post a single mp3 of an example of Bob's organ playing adding something meaningful to a performance.

If you meant the latter, I agree that the organ alone is not reason enough to not attend (or download) a Bob Dylan show, that there are other things going on there that are worth seeing and listening to. But, once again, this is a most pathetic and laughable endorsement: Bob Dylan's organ playing good enough that it doesn't make his show not worth going to.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 16:09 GMT 

Joined: Mon September 10th, 2007, 17:11 GMT
Posts: 1375
I don't know how to post mp3s (I've only ever been a downloader :oops: ), but check out his playing from 3-13 this year. At the beginning of "Love Sick," he starts playing the off beats to complement the guitar chords, and it works. It's a reasonable idea that he plays in-time and the song is enhanced. I do believe that, yes.

That is also the show, I think (going from memory, sorry), where he holds the I chord through all the changes in "Rollin' And Tumblin'". That's a pretty wild effect, adding extensions to blues chords like that. I like it. He has enhanced the song again.

His organ playing, as far as I can see, has gone from always awful to mostly awful and sometimes passable to half awful and half passable to the current day where it is almost always passable and sometimes so quirky, yet so intense, that I do find it to be quite good. That's as fair as I can be about his playing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 16:11 GMT 

Joined: Mon July 6th, 2009, 21:29 GMT
Posts: 1218
Oops, that's "playing is good enough"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 16:34 GMT 

Joined: Mon September 10th, 2007, 17:11 GMT
Posts: 1375
Um... ok?

You asked for examples where his playing enhanced the song and I provided them. So I'm not sure where to go from here...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 17:04 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed October 1st, 2008, 17:15 GMT
Posts: 8343
Location: This Town Ain't Big Enough...
Why are you people feeding it? Look, whenever you have the urge to take the bait, just go and read another thread that he's been in, because it will look exactly the same. Which this does. Mindless babble ending in insults. Slippers doesn't want "debate", he's an attention whore. He's not interested in making one of your precious "points". Just post one of these ( http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=troll&aq=f ) and be done with it.

You all know this already.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 17:06 GMT 

Joined: Mon July 6th, 2009, 21:29 GMT
Posts: 1218
:lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 17:07 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu January 24th, 2008, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 18476
Location: Where the swift don't win the race
That Bob will do what Bob wants to do has been evidenced throughout his career. From switching genres and styles of music, to being born again, to the musical arrangements, to the instruments he plays... My concern, aside from having very little love for the organ, is that his contributions are less and less important. I If he's going to continue to tour, which is apparent that it is something he wants to do, and if he wants to contribute in a meaningful way (which is part of the point we're discussing / or arguing), what is it going to take to experience a meaningful shift?

For example, if no one were to buy a single ticket for his next tour... he may interpret that as "It's time to pack it in. We had a good run." When the real message is, "Get rid of the organ sound." But he doesn't seem to listen to anybody.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 17:18 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed October 1st, 2008, 17:15 GMT
Posts: 8343
Location: This Town Ain't Big Enough...
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "important"... could be a lot of things. And I have to admit, I'm kinda surprised by the general criticism of the organ since it's hardly a new sound. In fact, beyond the harmonica, it's probably the closest thing to a Dylan musical constant.

Also, I don't think the general public cares/is aware enough of his onstage musical choices to make a "we're gonna put you out of business" vote like that. Besides, if he didn't tell the audience to go fuck itself, he wouldn't be Dylan anymore.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 17:22 GMT 

Joined: Mon September 10th, 2007, 17:11 GMT
Posts: 1375
I'm still game to keep going CShoe, if you are. I just need you to elaborate a bit more on your last post.

Again, you asked where Bob enhanced the song and I gave you my examples. So, now what?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 17:25 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu January 24th, 2008, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 18476
Location: Where the swift don't win the race
One of my criticisms of live shows is the number of people so drunk they don't know if its Dylan on stage or Motley Crue. Hence, they wouldn't have any idea what instrument he's playing or even which person he is. The organ isn't new by any means and when played by Garth Hudson or Augie Myers it adds something to the sound. Bob's playing is a distraction and while I agree he's getting better, I still feel his ability is limited.

I wouldn't want people to quit attending the NET. On the other hand, if this is the way its going to be for the next 30 years...

Well, that's not a prospect I care to entertain at this moment...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 17:35 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed October 1st, 2008, 17:15 GMT
Posts: 8343
Location: This Town Ain't Big Enough...
:non-existant faceplant smilie: Slocastro, you've chosen weird form of masochism. Here's a documentary on your condition :roll: :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg

Untrodden Path wrote:
One of my criticisms of live shows is the number of people so drunk they don't know if its Dylan on stage or Motley Crue. Hence, they wouldn't have any idea what instrument he's playing or even which person he is. The organ isn't new by any means and when played by Garth Hudson or Augie Myers it adds something to the sound. Bob's playing is a distraction and while I agree he's getting better, I still feel his ability is limited.

I wouldn't want people to quit attending the NET. On the other hand, if this is the way its going to be for the next 30 years...

Well, that's not a prospect I care to entertain at this moment...


Well, nothing with Dylan is a constant for thirty years!

The organ is the driving force behind the band. Dylan uses it like a conductor's baton, instructing the others how to play at what times... if he's paying softly, the others follow suite. If he's really pounding the thing, they'll kick it up a notch. He'll come up with a little riff and they'll imitate it. That's what makes Highway 61 #10293876537887567 worthwhile, those little moments of innovation.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 17:50 GMT 

Joined: Mon September 10th, 2007, 17:11 GMT
Posts: 1375
Warren Peace wrote:
:non-existant faceplant smilie: Slocastro, you've chosen weird form of masochism.


It's either this or approaching girls at the bar who are way out of my league. This one happens to be more convenient at the time :)

Where you at, Shoesey?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 18:18 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue April 28th, 2009, 00:12 GMT
Posts: 5454
Location: The ants are my friends
Fruit. And plenty of it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed April 7th, 2010, 19:06 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat October 27th, 2007, 12:44 GMT
Posts: 17472
Location: Workin' as a postal clerk
Just make sure he knows everyone loves the organ. Then he'll stop.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu April 8th, 2010, 18:06 GMT 

Joined: Mon July 6th, 2009, 21:29 GMT
Posts: 1218
slocastro wrote:
I'm still game to keep going CShoe, if you are. I just need you to elaborate a bit more on your last post.


My last post was simply a correction to the one I posted before it, which was no longer eligible for direct editing.

Quote:
Again, you asked where Bob enhanced the song and I gave you my examples. So, now what?


I listened to some of that Love Sick. I don't really see how Bob's playing adds value to it. The only thing about it that was intense was the intense suspicion I felt that a dyspraxic primary school piano student had joined the band. The song would've been better without it. Surely having time for and seeing real merit in Bob's organ playing is a symptom of someone who has been so taken by the man's oddity in general that they would be willing to pay full ticket price to see him read a phone book. I'm sorry, bullshit is bullshit--would you accept this performance from any other musician you paid $50 to see?

It's very rarely discussed, but one of the major storylines of the NET is the increasing focus on Bob as the immediate source of musical creativity in "his band"--I know that sounds self-evident and desirable, but it's not. Over the course of the NET Bob has gone from not only "directing" the band in a conventional sense (think of the way he cuts JJ off in that one video of Joey from 1995) to making his "directing" a primary aspect of his involvement in the show, putting the band in the line and turning his keyboard towards them (and away from the audience) to finally having the band serve as a kind of ornamentation for and extension of his own crude musical ideas and organ honking--note how the band have obviously been directed to "follow" Bob when he hits upon one of his repeated three or four note phrases. Is that how far Bob's head is up his legend's ass, that his musical genius, which used to be accepted as falling in the areas of songwriting and singing, is now also supposed to inhabit his autistic keyboard fumblings? Let's make that the focus of the band, to follow Bob on his inane doodles and honking, as if he had risen to fame in NYC as an improvisational organist. His lack of ability is something to be worked around and covered up, and for many years he seemed to understand that. Now it serves as the foundation of his entire show. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu April 8th, 2010, 18:29 GMT 

Joined: Mon September 10th, 2007, 17:11 GMT
Posts: 1375
CShoe wrote:
slocastro wrote:
I'm still game to keep going CShoe, if you are. I just need you to elaborate a bit more on your last post.


My last post was simply a correction to the one I posted before it, which was no longer eligible for direct editing.

Quote:
Again, you asked where Bob enhanced the song and I gave you my examples. So, now what?


I listened to some of that Love Sick. I don't really see how Bob's playing adds value to it. The only thing about it that was intense was the intense suspicion I felt that a dyspraxic primary school piano student had joined the band. The song would've been better without it.


Let's stop right there. "The song would've been better without it." I disagree. I think his playing adds value to the song. I cannot, under and circumstances, prove this, just as you can't prove the opposite.

What I want you do is admit that this is more about personal taste than lack of an enriched musical ear from the listener. I *enjoy* that Bob's band copies the three note doodles. When I'm gigging with a band that's heavy on improv, I like when we do it too. Bass player starts a riff, guitar player copies it note for note and then the drummer starts accenting all the same beats? Yes please. You don't like it. That's fine. That doesn't mean it's lesser music (though I'm sure you already knew that :) )


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu April 8th, 2010, 19:00 GMT 

Joined: Thu August 30th, 2007, 22:44 GMT
Posts: 3981
CShoe wrote:
It's very rarely discussed, but one of the major storylines of the NET is the increasing focus on Bob as the immediate source of musical creativity in "his band"--I know that sounds self-evident and desirable, but it's not. Over the course of the NET Bob has gone from not only "directing" the band in a conventional sense (think of the way he cuts JJ off in that one video of Joey from 1995) to making his "directing" a primary aspect of his involvement in the show, putting the band in the line and turning his keyboard towards them (and away from the audience) to finally having the band serve as a kind of ornamentation for and extension of his own crude musical ideas and organ honking--note how the band have obviously been directed to "follow" Bob when he hits upon one of his repeated three or four note phrases. Is that how far Bob's head is up his legend's ass, that his musical genius, which used to be accepted as falling in the areas of songwriting and singing, is now also supposed to inhabit his autistic keyboard fumblings? Let's make that the focus of the band, to follow Bob on his inane doodles and honking, as if he had risen to fame in NYC as an improvisational organist. His lack of ability is something to be worked around and covered up, and for many years he seemed to understand that. Now it serves as the foundation of his entire show. :lol:

Once again, I see the same thing happening as you, but I feel the complete opposite way about it. All this is indeed going on, but IMO it's an overwhelmingly positive thing. It's wonderful. He's always been looking for a way to combine the full sound of a band with the freedom of being a solo performer. Freedom to improvise, experiment, and be idiosyncratic, not locked in tight and out of range, not be worried that you're going to derail or ruin anything by stepping outside the lines. And he's found it. The band plays as one with him. They're ready to run as far with it as he wants to take it. And this supports a confidence and lack of inhibition that allow us an unobstructed view of the musical mad scientist at work in his laboratory, assembling his creations, at once horrifying and yet monstrously sympathetic. I'm sure you see it as perverse but it's the kind of show you don't get anywhere else. I'm glad he isn't "covering up" or "working around" or otherwise hiding his eccentricities, but brandishing them freely and unabashedly. They are, after all, what make Dylan...Dylan.

And I still hear plenty of applause at shows, so I kind of doubt I'm the only one who feels like this.


Last edited by The Mighty Monkey Of Mim on Thu April 8th, 2010, 19:15 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group