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PostPosted: Wed February 2nd, 2005, 01:05 GMT 

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I know that this is sort of a 'which came first the chicken or the egg' thing and obvioiusly NW came out first but the similarites between the songs is incredible. I was under the impression that Dylan played the melody of the song for Lennon and he turned it into NW which was followed by Dylan's song. Anyone know for sure what took place?


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PostPosted: Wed February 2nd, 2005, 15:50 GMT 

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I always thought it was just a very good joke by Bob. He new how much he'd influenced Lennon and he was having a nice little, gentle dig with '4th Time Around'.


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PostPosted: Mon July 25th, 2011, 23:40 GMT 
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I think this is a clear example of Lennon stealing a tune from Dylan and it really upsets me that everyone calls Bob out for using a "C" chord alleging he stole the entire tune but no one says a word about Lennon.

Is this a double standard?

On a serious note, there are some interesting parallels between Norwegian Wood and 4th Time Around... but which one really came first?


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PostPosted: Mon July 25th, 2011, 23:47 GMT 
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This has been argued time and again and no-one really knows. There certainly is a link though, they even have similiar lyrical themes somewhat.


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 00:43 GMT 
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I wouldn't know where to look for a link but I remember reading an interview with Lennon where he spoke at some length about it.
He sounded pretty paranoid. I believe he thought Dylan was mind f**king him.
(Maybe someone else knows more about that interview. I'm not a Beatles or John Lennon know it all.)

But yeah, the Chicken came first...


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 00:45 GMT 

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I read a book about Lennon long ago---the title is long forgotten but it's somewhere here in the house, I'm sure, as I believe that the quickest way to find out that one needs something is to throw it away.

Anyway....here's what I recall reading:

Lennon had become increasingly infatuated with Dylan to the point where he was wanting his songs recorded with acoustic guitar & harmonica, albeit with bass & drums so the whole group could participate. "I Should Have Known Better" & "I'm a Loser" are a couple examples. Dylan reportedly became fed up with it. He dug the Beatles' music & felt that Lennon should stick to what the Beatles did best rather than trying to imitate Dylan. "4th Time Around" was a satire of "Norwegian Wood," but mostly Dylan's way of telling Lennon to cut it out.

Reportedly the line "I never asked for your crutch, now don't ask for mine" kept Lennon awake nights for months, wondering what message Dylan was conveying to him.


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 00:59 GMT 
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It's funny how those two songs are similar but not in the most obvious ways. They don't have the same melody and they don't use the same chords. It seems like it's more in the cadence of the singing than anything else.


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 02:22 GMT 
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Singing Bear wrote:
I always thought it was just a very good joke by Bob. He new how much he'd influenced Lennon and he was having a nice little, gentle dig with '4th Time Around'.



This is what I always thought too.


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 03:03 GMT 
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I don't even think they're all that remarkably similar.

But either would have fit perfectly on "My Favorite Things".


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 04:06 GMT 
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Wouldn't the release dates/ recording dates of the songs solve the chicken/ egg (or Jamacian Rum / Norweigen Wood ) arguement?


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 05:22 GMT 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Wood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Time_Around


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 06:02 GMT 

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I don't think Lennon actually STOLE the melody/song/idea/whatever from Dylan. I more thought that "Fourth Time Around" was just Dylan poking fun at how Lennon tried to make some Dylan-ish songs. "Norwegian Wood" isn't even the most blatant Lennon-trying-to-sound-like-Dylan tune IMO. That would be "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away," in which Lennon actively tried to sing in a Dylan-ish manner. Gotta love the 60's for weird things like this. Ditto with the Paul/John back and forth in song form after The Beatles broke up.


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 10:55 GMT 
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Norwegian Wood was written, recorded and released first (on Rubber Soul), in December 1965. 4th Time Around is Dylan's pointed response to Lennon's supposed mimicry, with its apparently loaded- as already flagged in an above post- 'I never asked for your crutch, now don't ask for mine' closing line. Lennon already had the tune back in January '65, when he played it to George Martin, on a skiing holiday. Paul then helped him with the writing. By the time they recorded it in October 1965, they'd seen Dylan performing at the Royal Albert Hall, met him again, during that tour, and BIABH, LARS and H61R had all been released, so his creative influence would have intensified, in tandem with this prodigious 1965 career leap. One of those influences would have been the increasing opaqueness of his writing. Interestingly, Lennon stated that he was writing about an affair, and trying to disguise that from his then wife Cynthia, so this approach would have suited his purposes well.

The affair, is alleged- by old friend Pete Shotton, in Bob Spitz' biography of Lennon- to have been with Maureen Cleave, who appeared recently in the All Along the Watchtower thread, where her interview with Dylan at the head of Don't Look Back is referenced. Maureen later claimed that Lennon never once made a 'pass' at her. Here she is with the Fabs, apparently showing more interest in George, while John tries to engage her attention:

Image


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 11:22 GMT 
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I really fail to see anyway that Lennon could've stolen the song...considering the dates they were written. :roll:

If Bob is taking the piss on Lennon then so be it, it works. But I choose to see it as a slight dig, slight homage, and just generally a young man jostling a pal. I really don't think the last line pertains to Lennon, if anything it sounds like a song for Joan, but really, who the shit knows other than Big B, eh?


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PostPosted: Tue July 26th, 2011, 12:44 GMT 
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I thought it was pretty well-established that Norwegian Wood was first. I think Heylin tells a story about Lennon being offended when Dylan played 4th Time to him.

Dylan also recorded 'I Wanna Be Your Lover' around the same time, which takes its cue from I Wanna Be Your Man, so clearly Dylan was rummaging through his Beatles records at the time!


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PostPosted: Wed July 27th, 2011, 06:09 GMT 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Wanna_Be_Your_Man


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PostPosted: Mon April 22nd, 2019, 14:52 GMT 
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Saw on youtube a couple days ago some meeting with Al Kooper in front of a bunch of students. One of them on the Q&A sessions asked Al about this.
Kooper says, when he heard Dylan rehearsing this song in studio for the Blonde on blonde sessions he went like "errr... Bob... don´t you think you can get into trouble for recording this one? Maybe the Beatles could sue you?". to which Bob replied "No, man, I should sue them".
Al deducted from that that Bob had played the song in front of Lennon before recording it, after which Lennon stole it and recorded it before him


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PostPosted: Mon April 22nd, 2019, 15:29 GMT 

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wormington wrote:
Saw on youtube a couple days ago some meeting with Al Kooper in front of a bunch of students. One of them on the Q&A sessions asked Al about this.
Kooper says, when he heard Dylan rehearsing this song in studio for the Blonde on blonde sessions he went like "errr... Bob... don´t you think you can get into trouble for recording this one? Maybe the Beatles could sue you?". to which Bob replied "No, man, I should sue them".
Al deducted from that that Bob had played the song in front of Lennon before recording it, after which Lennon stole it and recorded it before him


You can't listen to "Hide Your Love Away" without hearing "The Times They Are A Changing".....same basic chords, time-signature, and overall feel. You wouldn't have the latter if the former was created first.

I always believed that "Fourth Time Around" was Bob taking the piss with a bit of parody of "Norwegian Wood" .....a waltz time-signature, similar melody, and the same rhyming meter.


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PostPosted: Mon April 22nd, 2019, 15:34 GMT 
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My take on it used to be, since Lennon is to me clearly imitating Dylan´s lyrical style in Norwegian wood, Dylan took the melody of that one to throw the joke back at him...


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PostPosted: Mon April 22nd, 2019, 16:06 GMT 

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It seems he took the whole idea too, and took it farther. In subtlely detailing a juicy affair, I think Dylan's is a league ahead. Probably why Lennon hated hearing it.


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PostPosted: Mon April 22nd, 2019, 16:13 GMT 
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Fourth Time Around is without doubt the better song - it's magnificent. Norweigan Wood is just Ikea ready assembled.


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PostPosted: Mon April 22nd, 2019, 21:46 GMT 
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It always seemed so simple to me (at least before I read this thread):
- Lennon crushes on Dylan, wants to be deeper like Dylan and writes a damn good song(s).
- Dylan sees exactly what's going on and takes the piss out of him with a song that's more of a sendup than anything else (all other BoB tracks are stronger, except Obviously 5 Believers).

Even so, I like both songs equally well -- one of Lennon's stronger efforts vs. a song that's not even in Dylan's top 100.


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PostPosted: Mon April 22nd, 2019, 23:59 GMT 
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summerteeth wrote:
one of Lennon's stronger efforts vs. a song that's not even in Dylan's top 100.


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PostPosted: Tue April 23rd, 2019, 02:25 GMT 
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summerteeth wrote:
.

Even so, I like both songs equally well -- one of Lennon's stronger efforts vs. a song that's not even in Dylan's top 100.


Rolling stone ranked it at 54.


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PostPosted: Tue April 23rd, 2019, 03:32 GMT 
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I think it's great Dylan song, though I can see why it might be seen as 'typical' of a certain vengeful streak, as shown to perhaps better effect in Positively 4th Street. The version from Dublin '66 is just fantastic.


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