Expecting Rain

Go to main page
It is currently Fri April 18th, 2014, 13:08 GMT

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 902 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 37  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu September 22nd, 2011, 19:55 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sat September 13th, 2008, 03:43 GMT
Posts: 2965
Quote:
Including the issue date of the Life magazine cover in his version pretty much is an open invitation to me - or anybody - to go find the original. I'd say that's a man who's not trying to hide anything.
I'd agree - I mean he's using these pulpy images of Asia - an opium den, a Buddhist monk, a cockfight, some yakuza-lookin dudes - that seem to play up to Western stereotypes of the Exotic Orient - and yet somehow this tony New York gallery describes them thus -
Quote:
His motifs bear corresponding impressions of the many different environments and people that he encounters...A keen observer, Dylan works from real life to depict everyday phenomena...The Asia Series...comprises firsthand depictions of people, street scenes, architecture and landscape.
It would seem that he's keen to emphasize that he's using real-life, first-hand everyday phenomena - yet there's nothing everyday about the images we've seen so far (except Kitchenette, although what would he be doing in those dudes' apartment?). Is he having a laugh at the gallery's expense/sending up our expectations of what Asia is all about? Or is he looking to boost his Beatnik 'On The Road' creds/trying to live up to his Beat ideal of art as a spontaneous slice of life? Or is he trying to compensate for his shortcomings as an artist by implying the works are rough, ephemeral sketches captured in a stolen moment? It's all rather intriguing as usual. He must know the photos he's working from will become public knowledge. But he also seems to care about a Beat-inspired ideal of capturing a moment (this guy despises overdubbing) that in his own mind he falls short of.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu September 22nd, 2011, 22:05 GMT 

Joined: Sat April 18th, 2009, 11:22 GMT
Posts: 30
Like many others who've posted here, I'm not a Dylan apologist, but remember that Dylan/Baez tour poster that caused such an uproar in March 65? You know, the one where neither management liked it because his name was higher, but hers came first etc.... the story's in the Baby Let Me Follow You Down book. Well also in that book, is Eric von Schmidt saying that he based his poster on a photo of Bob and Joan taken at the Club 47. He also said that he did the painting in a Toulouse Lautrec style. So this isn't anything new.

Drawn Blank was a series of images drawn by Dylan on the road, then later they were scanned and adapted for acrylics etc. With his new stuff, like Brazil or Asia, what we seem to have is Dylan painting in a similar way to EVS by using photos, rather than making sketches there and then and developing them back in the studio. If he's blatantly saying he didn't use photos or other "influences" that's another matter, but I haven't read anything to that effect.

When I first saw the Brazil and Asia series my first thought was that he'd captured the scenes while on tour, perhaps taken photos and worked on them afterwards. After all, if you're as famous as Bob Dylan you're hardly able to pull up a chair in an opium den and start sketching some woman, or do the same in the slums of Brazil. I was taken aback when I realised he'd used a photo for Opium though, but I guess since he's visited these places he can argue that he's reproducing them (photos) and weaving in his own interpretations based on his visits to these countries?

But going back to the Dylan/Baez poster, all I can say is that what Eric von Schmidt produced (based on a photo and influenced by Lautrec) is pretty fabulous and in its own way, quite unique. I'm lucky enough to own an original and it always makes me happy to look at it! I don't care if it's from a photo, it's beautiful.

Finally, Eric von Schmidt wasn't just a great guitarist and songwriter, but he was also an EXCELLENT painter and if he copied a photo to do that poster, is it really such a crime that Dylan did it too?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu September 22nd, 2011, 22:29 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 25th, 2007, 20:56 GMT
Posts: 1333
Location: New York City
"quotation" and "borrowing" are as old as the hills in poetry, traditional songs, and visual art. There's no need to be an apologist for that. It's often a part of making art, that's all. Good grief, y'all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu September 22nd, 2011, 22:32 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 25th, 2007, 20:56 GMT
Posts: 1333
Location: New York City
Yes, Ursie, big black cars, but Military Police? Hmmm that's going a little far.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu September 22nd, 2011, 22:38 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon December 6th, 2004, 06:22 GMT
Posts: 15018
Location: Scarlet Town
Johanna Parker wrote:
As I said above, I don't think Bob told them he painted from photos - he never told anyone he borrowed from Ovid and Confessions Of A Yakuza and Uncle John's Bongos. He's been found out, he doesn't seem to care, so he goes on with it. I honestly start to think it's a game that he is playing with us. The gallery staff didn't check the background of these works, and why would they if they assumed these were original works.



and rest assured if you did that to his work, he'd sue you

My opinion is that it's not a game, rather he feels he is entitled to do it. Similarly when he talks on NDH about "helping himself" to those records of those folks who were away .... he friggin stole them... but he says it like he was entitled to them.... as if he needed them more than the rightful owners.... and he said it all shamelessly


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu September 22nd, 2011, 22:42 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon December 6th, 2004, 06:22 GMT
Posts: 15018
Location: Scarlet Town
Fred@Dreamtime wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
As I said above, I don't think Bob told them he painted from photos - he never told anyone he borrowed from Ovid and Confessions Of A Yakuza and Uncle John's Bongos. He's been found out, he doesn't seem to care, so he goes on with it. I honestly start to think it's a game that he is playing with us. The gallery staff didn't check the background of these works, and why would they if they assumed these were original works.


Well, to be fair to Mr. D., not that he needs my defense :lol: , including the issue date of the Life magazine cover in his version pretty much is an open invitation to me - or anybody - to go find the original. I'd say that's a man who's not trying to hide anything. As to the photos, it may be indicative that so far all -- with the possible exception of "Opium," I haven't checked that out -- have been imagery from photobanks such as Magnum and Getty, and all available for licensing. I suspect that's why (at least so far) we haven't seen a protest from the copyright holders of the original photos. Given the kerfluffle over the Obama "Hope" poster, it's hard to believe that someone wouldn't expect a suit unless someone had taken steps prior to ensure something similar wouldn't happen.

That doesn't Mr. D. isn't being his usual disingenuous self, but who would expect more (or less) from him? Someday I'm going to write an article titled, "The 5 Stages of Being a Bob Dylan Fan" and list the process many fans go through from initial denial to grudging acceptance... eventually accepting him for what he is. :lol:


the paintings are marketed as things he saw on his trips to asia... well, I guess surfing the net while in asia must account for the sights he saw in asia...bwhahahaha


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu September 22nd, 2011, 22:52 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon December 6th, 2004, 06:22 GMT
Posts: 15018
Location: Scarlet Town
restless wrote:
"quotation" and "borrowing" are as old as the hills in poetry, traditional songs, and visual art. There's no need to be an apologist for that. It's often a part of making art, that's all. Good grief, y'all.


Just because things happen all the time, doesn't make it right.... I can think of many things that happen and have been going on for years but it certainly doesn't make it right.
and when someone puts quotations around something you know it's borrowed... you know it's not that person's original thought.... I promise you if I had to write a paper for school and I copied something verbatim but just changed the font, I would be plagiarizing.
That's cool to draw someone else's photos, but don't have your exhibit marketed as sights and interpretations of things you saw while in Asia.... that's bullshit...

people borrow all the time...borrow ideas, techniques, etc... great!!! These are pretty much exact drawn copies of other works... I guess bob's interpretation of the cock fight was exactly the same as the photographer's

Look at picasso... if he drew that cock fight photo, it would look completely different than the photo even though he got his ideas from it.... that's art....

this is just my opinion and I mean no disrespect to people who think otherwise. I just don't like that Bob gets away with stuff that others wouldn't... why are the rules different for him.... besides the fact he is the sexiest hottest fox on the planet....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 00:24 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sat September 13th, 2008, 03:43 GMT
Posts: 2965
Quote:
I promise you if I had to write a paper for school and I copied something verbatim but just changed the font, I would be plagiarizing.
Let's not confuse art with a term paper. I just think it's weird/intriguing the way the gallery's press release lauds the 'on the road' authenticity of the stuff--i'm still awaiting Meg's response--I can't imagine she'd justify it by saying 'It's All Good'.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 01:33 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon December 6th, 2004, 06:22 GMT
Posts: 15018
Location: Scarlet Town
AndoDoug wrote:
Quote:
I promise you if I had to write a paper for school and I copied something verbatim but just changed the font, I would be plagiarizing.
Let's not confuse art with a term paper. I just think it's weird/intriguing the way the gallery's press release lauds the 'on the road' authenticity of the stuff--i'm still awaiting Meg's response--I can't imagine she'd justify it by saying 'It's All Good'.



ahahahahahahahaha that would be sooo ironic


Unfortunately though it is the same thing... the point is you have to cite your sources if you are selling your work at a major gallery and it is an exact copy of someone else's.... if it was interpreted from someone else's but looks different then you can pull that off, but usually in a museum or something, it tells the background of that piece and where it was interpreted from.... Bob's paintings are NOT interpretations of other photos...They are copies.... he just happened to add color in a few, and I happened to change the font used in the paper.... same idea.

It's cool to copy a painting as an art student in school... you see them all the time in museums sketching and painting and copying art hanging from the walls.... but it is for personal, private use, and they are not hanging it in a major gallery selling it for hundreds of thousands of dollars passing off each and every idea as his or her own as things they saw on multiple trips through a continent... Bob is NOT an art student regardless of how well of an artist you think he is or is not.
It's just very amateurish I think...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 01:39 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon December 6th, 2004, 06:22 GMT
Posts: 15018
Location: Scarlet Town
AndoDoug wrote:
Quote:
I promise you if I had to write a paper for school and I copied something verbatim but just changed the font, I would be plagiarizing.
Let's not confuse art with a term paper. I just think it's weird/intriguing the way the gallery's press release lauds the 'on the road' authenticity of the stuff--i'm still awaiting Meg's response--I can't imagine she'd justify it by saying 'It's All Good'.



btw I love that you sent that letter!!! A-W-E-S-O-M-E

I'd feel a lot better if someone has gone and can tell us if the paintings had a plaque next to them explaining it and from where it's interpretations came... Like Opium.... Bob copied this right down to the color from blah blah blah... I wouldn't have an issue with it.... but I highly doubt credit was given where credit is due.... that only happens with Bob if the tables are turned and he is the one that got plagiarized.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 01:50 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue June 2nd, 2009, 03:13 GMT
Posts: 4556
Milkcow wrote:
restless wrote:
"quotation" and "borrowing" are as old as the hills in poetry, traditional songs, and visual art. There's no need to be an apologist for that. It's often a part of making art, that's all. Good grief, y'all.


Just because things happen all the time, doesn't make it right.... I can think of many things that happen and have been going on for years but it certainly doesn't make it right.
and when someone puts quotations around something you know it's borrowed... you know it's not that person's original thought.... I promise you if I had to write a paper for school and I copied something verbatim but just changed the font, I would be plagiarizing.
That's cool to draw someone else's photos, but don't have your exhibit marketed as sights and interpretations of things you saw while in Asia.... that's bullshit...

people borrow all the time...borrow ideas, techniques, etc... great!!! These are pretty much exact drawn copies of other works... I guess bob's interpretation of the cock fight was exactly the same as the photographer's

Look at picasso... if he drew that cock fight photo, it would look completely different than the photo even though he got his ideas from it.... that's art....

this is just my opinion and I mean no disrespect to people who think otherwise. I just don't like that Bob gets away with stuff that others wouldn't... why are the rules different for him.... besides the fact he is the sexiest hottest fox on the planet....


I think you just wanted to say cock fight...two times. :roll: :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 02:25 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sat September 13th, 2008, 03:43 GMT
Posts: 2965
Quote:
...with the possible exception of "Opium," it's been imagery from photobanks such as Magnum and Getty, and all available for licensing. I suspect that's why (at least so far) we haven't seen a protest from the copyright holders of the original photos. Given the kerfuffle over the Obama "Hope" poster, it's hard to believe that someone wouldn't expect a suit unless someone had taken steps prior to ensure something similar wouldn't happen.
So Meg at the Gallery might be shaking in her boots over the Opium one? How was the Hope Poster matter resolved? I guess the question was whether the AP photo used in the illustration fell under 'fair use' or whether its use required permission - but haven't been able to find out how it was resolved.

Milkcow wrote:
I'd feel a lot better if the paintings had a plaque next to them explaining it and from where its interpretations came... Like Opium.... Bob copied this right down to the color from blah blah blah... I wouldn't have an issue with it.... but I highly doubt credit was given where credit is due.... that only happens with Bob if the tables are turned and he is the one that got plagiarized.
I wonder if Bob has bitten off more than he can chew in this case - I don't know enough about the conventions of how those in the visual arts cite sources - but it'll be interesting to see what happens.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 03:28 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon December 6th, 2004, 06:22 GMT
Posts: 15018
Location: Scarlet Town
I'm curious too, but I bet bob will come out just fine...as I said he gets away with it



cock fight cock fight


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 05:17 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Tue June 2nd, 2009, 03:13 GMT
Posts: 4556
:mrgreen: ^^^see, I was right!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 07:16 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24616
Location: around, waiting for you
They updates the catalogue info on the Gagosian website - doesn't mean it's available though. :roll:
They just said to specify which color spine you want when ordering.
http://www.gagosian.com/publications/20 ... ia-series/

Oh, and ohhhh.... they added photos!
http://www.gagosian.com/exhibitions/201 ... /images/2/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 10:55 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24616
Location: around, waiting for you
Another one down:
http://www.life.com/image/tlp720230
http://www.gagosian.com/exhibitions/201 ... /images/3/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 11:14 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24616
Location: around, waiting for you
And another, thanks to Scott Warmuth.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2358252690/
http://www.gagosian.com/exhibitions/201 ... /images/4/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 11:17 GMT 

Joined: Thu April 9th, 2009, 11:10 GMT
Posts: 392
Uh oh, i suspect all of the Bob Dylan "...series" that have been released will turn out to be "borrowed"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 11:23 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24616
Location: around, waiting for you
jamespadden81 wrote:
Uh oh, i suspect all of the Bob Dylan "...series" that have been released will turn out to be "borrowed"


Yes, I suspect that for the Asia Series, they are.
For Brazil, who knows.
But the Drawn Blank Series were created after Bob's own drawings, for sure.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 11:26 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sat September 13th, 2008, 03:43 GMT
Posts: 2965
Johanna Parker wrote:
The snapfish link isn't working - http://www.snapfish.com/Life/fe/p/ext/l%20...%20ce~LIFECOM%5Eimage_id~50647158


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 11:34 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24616
Location: around, waiting for you
AndoDoug wrote:


Try this - will edit my previous post.
http://www.life.com/image/tlp720230


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 11:52 GMT 

Joined: Sat September 17th, 2011, 01:08 GMT
Posts: 668
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriation_(art)- something I'm thinking about anyway


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 11:58 GMT 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri December 29th, 2006, 20:42 GMT
Posts: 1187
Location: Merrimack, NH
jamespadden81 wrote:
Uh oh, i suspect all of the Bob Dylan "...series" that have been released will turn out to be "borrowed"


I'd encourage those interested in the pricey Gagosian catalog to order it soon. I suspect that it's going to be a collector's item. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 12:01 GMT 
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri December 29th, 2006, 20:42 GMT
Posts: 1187
Location: Merrimack, NH
ifitwastruetennessee wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriation_(art)- something I'm thinking about anyway


Just to reset the link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriation_%28art%29

The section on "appropriation and copyrights," especially concerning the Warhol suits, are of interest.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri September 23rd, 2011, 12:11 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24616
Location: around, waiting for you
Fred@Dreamtime wrote:
jamespadden81 wrote:
Uh oh, i suspect all of the Bob Dylan "...series" that have been released will turn out to be "borrowed"


I'd encourage those interested in the pricey Gagosian catalog to order it soon. I suspect that it's going to be a collector's item. :lol:


You think they're gonna pull it? :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 902 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 37  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group