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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 14:57 GMT 
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Joined: Fri January 26th, 2007, 11:56 GMT
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Location: 'Twas the port of Liverpool/they returned me to...
That thing wot he said. That "Politically-correct wasteland" thing. Yeah, that's it.

That's what all these rules and regulations will amount to.

It's a massive, massive shame.

Whatever reputation ExpectingRain has got, you know; you do see its name bandied about in news articles and what have you, is down to the way it has been operated and contributed to in the past.

You go to other artists websites or forums, and they are all, without exception in my experience, boring as hell. The Doors were a great band, but censorship has limited their once-informative forums with pages and pages of saccharine subjects like: "Jim's Eyes" or "Ray is Cool."

Beatles forums under the same censorship have resorted to the exact same thing. Just replace "Jim's" with "George's".

And you're only allowed on Clash forums if you want to say how much you miss Joe Strummer these days, apparently.

It's the human and cyber equivalent of when the vet took the drastic decision to cut my cats balls off. He was never the same afterwards. Just a shadow of his former self, poor little bugger.

That's exactly what will happen to this unique, funny, informative place.

Please, Mr Erik, please stop cutting our balls off.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 15:20 GMT 
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Requiring "proper" grammar and punctuation? Filtering posts which have no "meaning"? Prohibiting sarcasm??

This seems like an enormous step in the direction of the stale, uninteresting discussion boards on artists' official websites. While I agree with others in that the mods certainly deserve a vacation, despite the poor timing during the summer tours and festivals, certain excerpts from the new rules come across as overreaching, unenforceable, and frankly insulting.

I wonder what type of career Robert Zimmerman would have found if he'd been forced to comply with these rules.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 15:24 GMT 

Joined: Wed June 14th, 2006, 10:23 GMT
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Location: St James Hotel
I must admit, I wondered at first if these "draft rules" were themselves a troll. Shades of George Orwell and mind control. The rules themselves seem to contradict much of the essence of what Bob Dylan is about.

Having said that, I understand the wish to achieve more civil discourse, but that is a society-wide problem, not one confined to these parts.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 16:22 GMT 
Long Johnny wrote:

You might also try some reverse psychology


v v v

1 Good manners - to be determined by the unfailingly polite Eddie, who is so well-mannered that I imagine he would be loathe to correct anyone else

1.2 Pornographic or provocative posts - duties to be performed by Milkcow

1.6 Report inappropriate posts - duties to be performed by Long Johnny

2.4 Post in the correct forum - duties to be performed by Gypsy Daisy

2.5 Use proper language and punctuation - duties to be performed by Still Mack

2.6 Posts should mean something - to be determined by me, therevelator - my brain damage is so bad that I often don't have the faintest idea what my own posts mean while writing them...& that's never stopped me!

2.10 Use quoting carefully - duties to be performed by stephadele


Proposed additional moderators for Political World - Philly B, carnap

Proposed additional moderators for Off Topic - thickboy, Street Beagle, Claudette

The complaint department - to be manned by ham wallet

Consequences of not abiding by the rules - to be determined by Over the Hill




This bunch can get the job done if we're given half a chance! :D


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 16:46 GMT 

Joined: Sun May 3rd, 2009, 15:42 GMT
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I agree that shutting down everything for a few weeks seems to be excessive and bad timing. Some advanced warnings would have been nice - like maybe before the plea for donations.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 17:11 GMT 
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honky tonk lagoon wrote:


...Great pity to see so many new rules ? are they really necessary ? to me it's a great forum, have yet to come across anything derogatory, racist etc.

Maybe the moderators could list the top 3 or 4 problems for them and enforce them as new rules before going ahead with all this ?...




jImMy_jAzZ wrote:

Whatever reputation ExpectingRain has got, you know; you do see its name bandied about in news articles and what have you, is down to the way it has been operated and contributed to in the past.

You go to other artists websites or forums, and they are all, without exception in my experience, boring as hell. The Doors were a great band, but censorship has limited their once-informative forums with pages and pages of saccharine subjects like: "Jim's Eyes" or "Ray is Cool."
...
That's exactly what will happen to this unique, funny, informative place.



Yes, I have seen an occasional evidence of racism; I notified admins and it was taken care of quickly. Is there a problem? I'd think a statement of such ought to precede the proposal.

This forum is unique (or close to it): Fun, thoughtful, lively, readable. Mess with it cautiously. It's likely more breakable than you'd imagine.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 17:50 GMT 
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slewan wrote:
Mad Cow wrote:
Copyright
By posting to the ER forums you acknowledge the copyright of all materials in this website – besides external companies logos and trademarks – belongs to ER. Upon posting in the forums you transfer the perdurable and exclusive right for ER to, without compensation, use and edit your forum posts.


Sorry, but I can’t agree on this point. Agreeing would mean to allow the owner(s) of ER to use any kind of information, text, discussion, research etc posted in the ER forums commercially without any reference to the original source, without acknowledging the people who’s work is used etc. All without compensation or any right or possibility to have a say about anything (where and how the content of your postings is used). And if the copyright of a postings belongs exclusively to ER it might even become illegal to quote and/or use postings – even those written by yourself – elsewhere !
If this copyright rule isn’t changed, I will stop posting in ER forums and I believe others will do so, too.
The postings should belong to the ER community and to nobody else!



Slewan,

That has been going on since day one....Just Google your username and see what you come up with .I have several of my posts from Expectingrain in Google. I don't know why but they are there and I don't know how to get them out....So just remember nothing is sacred.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 18:03 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 2139
GypsyDaisy wrote:
slewan wrote:
Mad Cow wrote:
Copyright
By posting to the ER forums you acknowledge the copyright of all materials in this website – besides external companies logos and trademarks – belongs to ER. Upon posting in the forums you transfer the perdurable and exclusive right for ER to, without compensation, use and edit your forum posts.


Sorry, but I can’t agree on this point. Agreeing would mean to allow the owner(s) of ER to use any kind of information, text, discussion, research etc posted in the ER forums commercially without any reference to the original source, without acknowledging the people who’s work is used etc. All without compensation or any right or possibility to have a say about anything (where and how the content of your postings is used). And if the copyright of a postings belongs exclusively to ER it might even become illegal to quote and/or use postings – even those written by yourself – elsewhere !
If this copyright rule isn’t changed, I will stop posting in ER forums and I believe others will do so, too.
The postings should belong to the ER community and to nobody else!



Slewan,

That has been going on since day one....Just Google your username and see what you come up with .I have several of my posts from Expectingrain in Google. I don't know why but they are there and I don't know how to get them out....So just remember nothing is sacred.


we all know that Google does't respect copyright at all (just think about the trouble with google books). But the fact that posts can be found by using google doesn't mean that the own the copyright - in our case google just locates things on the net and makes them accessable. Usually you don't give up copyright just by posting your ideas etc on the internet.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 18:31 GMT 
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I've clearly been out of touch for a few days here - what the (ooops that's forbidden) happened? What's all the hype about?
First there's no more TTRH and now two weeks without ER? Skimming the rules, some really seem very un-Dylan, as some other members mention (ooops, that's been said before, keep it short, ooohhhh)
and seems to threaten to take some of the personality out of this great ol' site. Clean and somewhat boring, I fear.
I will miss you terribly in my daily routines.
Are you allowed to whimper? I guess death to all those who would whimper and cry. Or is that a threat? :shock: :cry: :cry:

My signature contains a picture of Bob Dylan, fully clothed in about 3 layers, + a quote by Leonardo da Vinci. Now, why is all signatures simply erased removed without warning?
Now go ahead and erase my post for lacking relevance.


Last edited by Ursie Green Pastures on Thu June 18th, 2009, 18:39 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 18:34 GMT 
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Mad Cow wrote:
Expectingrain.com (ER) wishes to be considered a serious website

:roll:


Last edited by Isa on Thu June 18th, 2009, 18:43 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 18:41 GMT 

Joined: Thu August 30th, 2007, 22:44 GMT
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To be fair, I think that first statement was in specific reference to this thread.

But in all seriousness, just what the heck is a "serious website"?


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 19:00 GMT 
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I need not repeat what others have said but I agrre that some of these rules are a bit strangely worded. The obvious ones have been mentioned. Someone also mentioned that all these restrictions and the political correctness are destined to make the site boring and bland. I totally agree. I know of one site that is SOOO sacchraine that I stopped visiting ages ago!!

Respectfulness and courteousness shouldn't have to be regulated but still it's a wide, wide world out there and so you get all kinds. But oppressive rules will undoubtedlly have a negative, not a positive result.

That said, I believe the title of the thread says "draft." Which I take to mean they want feedback. I think so far they are getting some very good thoughts and ideas. Ultimately they will decide but they are letting their members be heard so I say give CONSTRUCTIVE ideas and maybe we will be heard. But above all be patient. Given what I've seen I don't think they want to be oppressive but we all know occassionally some of us want to, insist on, pushing the envelope a bit too far. Yes, that can make for excitement but I'm sure it means alot of hassle and aggravation for those running the place.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 19:04 GMT 
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To those who say this is bad timing: We didn't start the fire. It's funny how the forums also ignited at the start of last summer (Northern hemisphere).

The length of time the forums may be closed is due to some of us going away and being unable to keep the kind of close watch needed after the restart.

I am sorry that this had to happen just after I asked for donations. Anybody who donated and want a refund, just contact me!

I know some of the proposed terms seem unnecessarily strict. Remember this is a draft for you to voice your opinion on. Constructive feedback is very welcome! That said, I'd rather have strict terms and leave some room for judgement on the part of the moderators.

I agree that a sense of humour is a good thing, and there should be room for a bit of good sarcasm.

I guess the old posts must be kept, even if they will not all conform with the new Termas of Use. It must be clear that they were written in another age.

Karl Erik


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 20:04 GMT 

Joined: Thu August 30th, 2007, 22:44 GMT
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What is not clear to me is why you perceive a need for stricter terms at all. Granted, I was not a regular browser of the Off Topic forum and thus am not aware of what was going on there, but insofar as the Dylan-related fora are concerned I visited them every day and did not feel things were in any way out of hand or in pressing need of reigning in. If we had more specific information regarding whatever events may have precipitated this, perhaps the situation could be better understood.

While it is clear that we cannot have threats and the like being made, only just beneath such concerns for safety should stand a concern for freedom of expression and exchange of ideas. Any restrictions beyond those that are absolutely necessary to maintain the website's safe function should be regarded as an affront. The wording of some of the rules drafted above gives me serious pause with respect to this issue.

I suggest that, if particular problems are cropping up in one forum such as Off Topic and not elsewhere, countermeasures should likewise be contained within that arena and not impinge upon areas where they are not required. (To the greatest extent that this is practically feasible, of course.)

Additionally, encouraged guidelines are preferable whenever and wherever they will suffice in place of enforced rules. If you do indeed trust in the judgement of your moderators, I see no reason why exercising it under a more restrictive set of rules should be preferable to exercising it equally under a less restrictive one. In either scenario it must be decided on a case by case basis what is beyond acceptability, so what is the practical benefit in the latter?

As others have said, I can only imagine the amount of work it takes to keep a site like this going and the degree of frustration and aggravation you may have to put up with. I value this community immeasurably and give infinite thanks to you and all others helping to provide for its continued existence. I have no doubt that you all have its best interests at heart; I simply urge caution and careful consideration in acting upon them.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 20:24 GMT 
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Yes, indeed. What “The Mighty Monkey Of Mim" said. It would be helpful if we (I) could have a clue where the ignition took place. The forums (RFRDR, RDR, and DRDR) I check daily have become a bit sloppy perhaps, but.... Anyway, from what karlerik has said it seems the forums will return after the mods get a bit of rest -- maybe some distance from the problem (whatever it actually was) will be helpful.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 21:18 GMT 
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I can only say, never change a running system..
if there's threads, or posts that contain nonsense, just scroll down....
I am very sure we don't need this amount of *rules*. There's so many *rules* in our everyday 9-5-routine, so please, don't fill up the spare time we have with even more of those....

( I hope my written english is okay? I am german)
:roll:


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 21:20 GMT 
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The forums are shut for a few WEEKS ???? What the f-ck ??? :evil: :evil: :evil:

Otherwise, I agree with NettieMoore ! (yes, your English is perfect, don't worry)


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 21:29 GMT 

Joined: Sat May 12th, 2007, 19:22 GMT
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Ursie Green Pastures wrote:
I've clearly been out of touch for a few days here - what the (ooops that's forbidden) happened? What's all the hype about?
First there's no more TTRH and now two weeks without ER? Skimming the rules, some really seem very un-Dylan, as some other members mention (ooops, that's been said before, keep it short, ooohhhh)
and seems to threaten to take some of the personality out of this great ol' site. Clean and somewhat boring, I fear.
I will miss you terribly in my daily routines.
Are you allowed to whimper? I guess death to all those who would whimper and cry. Or is that a threat? :shock: :cry: :cry:

My signature contains a picture of Bob Dylan, fully clothed in about 3 layers, + a quote by Leonardo da Vinci. Now, why is all signatures simply erased removed without warning?
Now go ahead and erase my post for lacking relevance.


At least you got your edit in time! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 22:03 GMT 
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§2.5 Use proper language and punctuation
Writing properly is important. The use of caps, exclamation marks and language should all be within reason. Excessive use of caps, exclamation marks, or ”chat” in the ER forums is language unsought.


I'd reconsider this one Karl, it really isn't terribly important IMHO and seems overly 'fussy'. Isn't someone doing things a bit different than you would all a part of an online forum?

Thanks for your efforts Karlerik, I hope something is back and running by the first show, some of us really enjoy 'participating' in the tours via ER.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 22:52 GMT 
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Indeed, what if the Neverending Pool jams again and we can't come over here instead to flap, fuss and look for 'live' setlists? The world may end :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 22:53 GMT 

Joined: Fri February 16th, 2007, 07:31 GMT
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I'm a little surprised to see so many posts and especially from posters seemingly surprised at this development. When ER and it's mods were under attack, if perhaps more people had stood up for them, maybe all these proposed changes wouldn't be deemed necessary. Actions have consequences. Did people really think that they could try and force the admins' and mods' hands to get what they wanted and nothing would happen? We don't own the board and we can't decide what the rules are and how they're enforced. Clearly, this draft is the result of the "revolt". The vocal minority were clamoring to overrule the mods and some were clamoring for clearly defined rules. Be careful for what you wish for.

This is a privately owned and run site. Karl Erik is entitled to want ER to be considered a serious site. It's one of the largest, best known sites and is even linked to BobDylan.com. As someone has mentioned, Expecting Rain is regularly cited and is also used as a source reference in the media. In fact, the message board comments have been referenced and quoted. It's only natural that KE is going to want his site represented in the best possible light. If new visitors or the media pay a visit, and they see pages filled with ugly posts filled with negativity, obscenities, sexism, anti-religious bias, slams and inappropriately personal remarks against Dylan's family.... of course that's going to make ER look like a gutter site filled with trolls and lunatics. Why should he pay for and run a site that's embarassing? and a major headache?

I think the sheer amount of rules is because they're trying to cover all their bases, so they don't get someone saying they had no idea. With some people, everything has to be spelled out or they'll take advantage of the situation. There are people that have been celebrating the demise of ER. Some of those people have posted in this thread. I don't think they speak for everyone. or even the majority. ER has a lot of members that don't get involved in all of this crap, but suffer the consequences nonetheless. Which brings us to now. ER has to set up some rules in preparation for the next round of nonsense. Obviously, no rules is not an option. Sad, but true.

I'm sure with constructive input, they'll come up with some fair, workable rules. Rules that will work for the kind of classy site that they desire and are entitled to have. Speaking of workability and specific rules, I do think it necessary that on occasion you do have to quote the previous post. I'm not a speedy typist, and I do proof my post before I send it. and yes, I tend to be somewhat wordy. :D So if I'm responding to the post immediately preceding mine, unless I'm posting some one-liner, by the time I've thought out that response, typed and proofed it, it probably won't be following the same immediately preceeding post.


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PostPosted: Thu June 18th, 2009, 23:58 GMT 
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Over the hill wrote:
...There are people that have been celebrating the demise of ER. Some of those people have posted in this thread...

Hmmm. I've been lurking on ATU - and I guess you have, too. None of those folks posting there who have also posted here are "celebrating the demise of ER." Sure, some of those who have been banned from this site are being pretty negative - but those who are still ER members? Critical, yes. Celebratory? I think not.

For me, as a newbie, but with a 45 year appreciation of the subject of this board, I do hope to see this board back online sooner rather than later; and with room for the literate and less literate; room for serious and less serious posts; room for humour, irony, sarcasm (where justified); and room for differing opinions - including, maybe, the view that Dylan ain't God.


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 00:20 GMT 
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Hi Everybody,
Here is my attempt to fix this situation and get our favorite forum back open again. If people can join with me and be supportive, I am going to recommend that this forum be open again ASAP. I need the good people of ER to show support. If we can band together, we can stop the disease that caused last week’s revolt in it’s tracks. Everyone was having fun up until last week. We can get that fun back if enough people get on board.

I’ve made a lot of friends here and I miss the normal ER vibe, now I’m in withdrawal. I’m hoping that people will voice their support by posting in this thread. Otherwise I will retreat and move on as a regular forum member and just wait for the place to open again. Hey – I’m almost titanium!! :P Please read everything thoroughly. I’m not asking for suggestions, additions, changes right now. I’m asking for support. This is all common sense stuff and if you were a volunteer moderator you would require the same thing after dealing with what BZ and I just went through. Most are probably not aware of this, but Bob Zimmerman and I are the only ones at the controls. It's been that way for a year. Before that it was just BZ and before that Tambo.. There is little to no involvement from our Administrators unless things get out of hand.


BTW – there were some deliberate bannings and some accidental IP bannings that were done to stop people from posting (see the part about the arm-chair below) and to stop people from setting up additional accounts. Once the smoke clears, recent bannings will be reconsidered on a case by case basis. ER does not want to exclude people who genuinely want to be here and are willing to accept the rules (this does not apply to people with repeated permanent bannings) On the flip side, if this place doesn’t suit you and you don’t want to be here, don’t complain. Just leave!

I have found a new forum member who is willing to help BZ and I out. I feel really good about this person and I think everyone will like her.
For me to be comfortable with opening this place again, everyone who posts must agree to the following rules. Everyone who agrees must also agree to shun anyone who does not follow these rules. Follow? This is a draft, it may need some changes but by the time you’re done reading I think you’ll get the picture. I’m not a very good writer, so I apologize in advance if this looks like the work of a simpleton.

Three legged man’s rules.
This is my addendum to whatever gets agreed upon with the terms of use. With some time and input I think we can iron that thing out so that just about everyone will be happy. My main point is to put moderator discretion ahead of a strict set of rules. I wrote this it up in response to the recent forum revolt after I banned a couple of people. That’s the topic of a whole different, very well documented discussion which I have no interest in going into right now. People will just have to except what I did and move on.


Arm-chair moderators, real moderators and forum perspective.


Free speech: exists in real life (assuming you live where there’s free speech). It does not exist in a privately owned discussion forum. Since your communications are not limited to this forum, you can not say that you are being deprived of free speech. Just go somewhere else and you can say whatever you want. With that said, this is a Dylan forum and that means we use words like some people use numbers. We endorse free speech for the most part as long as nobody gets hurt. There is one exception to free speech that you will have to accept and abide by if you want to take part in this forum. You are not allowed to play the part of the Arm-chair moderator.


Actions: A Moderator’s actions or inaction's are not available as topics for forum discussion. They are not available for discussion in forum posts. Disdainful sarcasm having to do with displeasure about a mod’s action is not permitted. If you are not pleased with the actions of a moderator, you can submit a complaint to the moderator and/or the Administrators. Your complaint will be reviewed by the whole staff and actions may or may not be taken. After that, you must drop it.

Obligation: Moderators are not obligated or expected to explain their actions to the forum. Administrators will evaluate moderator actions to determine if they are justified. This is not the job of the forum. Decisions are final and are not up for forum discussion. In certain situations a brief explanation might be given but after that the case is closed.

Situations: Moderators often deal with situations that are beyond the scope of understanding for forum members. Forum members are not privy to the accumulated back ground information that the moderators have. Even though something might seem fishy, moderators must justify all actions to the admins and other mods. Member bannings are always group decisions.

Provocation: Actions deliberately meant to provoke, defame, insult, or otherwise bring grief to a moderator or administrator will result in a permanent banning. A person who does this will not be welcome back under any username.

You’re a guest: Think of it like this. You are a guest in someone’s private pub. The Administrators are the club owners. The moderators double as bartenders and bouncers. You guys get to yuck it up and have a good time. As long as you’re cool, you can stay. Come here to start trouble and you’re out. We don’t mind a little bar room brawl here and there, it keeps things lively. We don’t mind people getting cozy in the corner, or having long time feuds. It adds to the drama. But when things get mean spirited, that’s when threads get lock, moved out, people get shown the door for a time out. Sometimes people might get kicked out for good. It's case by case, group decision.

Survival: The moderator’s and administrator’s main interest is the survival of this forum. Dylan forums have a pattern of going defunct after a while and none of us want ER to end up like that. Other people might want that to happen but not the people I'm addressing this to. If things get too chaotic, like they did last week (second week of June, 2009), this place could go away for who knows how long? The good people who own and run this forum will only put up with so much grief.

If you like ER, and you agree with what I've written above, enter a post to this to show your support. Just don't quote this whole post!! Say "I support 3LM's plan" or something like that.


Thanks,

Dave (Three legged man)


EDIT: Sorry if I hijacked the thread. No harm intended, just offering suggestions. :D


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 00:32 GMT 
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therevelator wrote:
slewan wrote:
Mad Cow wrote:
Copyright
By posting to the ER forums you acknowledge the copyright of all materials in this website – besides external companies logos and trademarks – belongs to ER. Upon posting in the forums you transfer the perdurable and exclusive right for ER to, without compensation, use and edit your forum posts.


Sorry, but I can’t agree on this point. Agreeing would mean to allow the owner(s) of ER to use any kind of information, text, discussion, research etc posted in the ER forums commercially without any reference to the original source, without acknowledging the people who’s work is used etc. All without compensation or any right or possibility to have a say about anything (where and how the content of your postings is used). And if the copyright of a postings belongs exclusively to ER it might even become illegal to quote and/or use postings – even those written by yourself – elsewhere !
If this copyright rule isn’t changed, I will stop posting in ER forums and I believe others will do so, too.
The postings should belong to the ER community and to nobody else!



This rule is confusing and could be explained more succinctly so members understand what's meant by ER acquiring copyright to anything posted in the forums.

In any case, for people who wish to (and have in the past) post serious work here, such as essays, poems and photographs, while it's true that simply by making the work it is copyrighted, that affords you almost no legal protection if it is used/misused by another party. If you wish to protect your copyright on any significant writing or visual work that you plan to post on this or any forum, you might wish to consider registering the work with the government before posting it. In the United States, the simple instructions to copyright your work by mail are available on this site:

http://www.copyright.gov/register/





If you quote Bob or a Great Poet isn't it good enough to give the Kudo by telling them the Poets name or is the copy Right Infringement?


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PostPosted: Fri June 19th, 2009, 00:33 GMT 
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I support you, 3LM.


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