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PostPosted: Tue January 2nd, 2018, 13:55 GMT 

Joined: Mon December 7th, 2015, 21:20 GMT
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Modern Times is one of my favourite albums. I was somewhat surprised at the lack of outtakes/alternatives on Tell Tale Signs. Does anyone know whether there are other available offerings?

Cheers

Phil


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PostPosted: Tue January 2nd, 2018, 14:34 GMT 
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I'm totally interNettie Moore.

See what I did there? Still got it.


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PostPosted: Tue January 2nd, 2018, 16:53 GMT 
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Philsmith87 wrote:
Modern Times is one of my favourite albums. I was somewhat surprised at the lack of outtakes/alternatives on Tell Tale Signs. Does anyone know whether there are other available offerings?

Cheers

Phil


There isn't much, is there?? Ain't Talkin and Someday Baby was recorded twice, both released... But I'm not the expert here.

http://www.bjorner.com/DSN27960%20-%202006%20US%20Spring%20Tour.htm#DSN27955


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PostPosted: Wed January 3rd, 2018, 09:49 GMT 

Joined: Mon November 23rd, 2009, 20:21 GMT
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I read a interview with the sound engineer a while ago. He said that Bob no longer records a song many times. they rehearse it well (in the studio) and then they record it just once, it doesn't has to be the one and only take but most of the time it will be. same goes for Love & Theft, only Lonesome Day Blues has been recorded twice.


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PostPosted: Wed January 3rd, 2018, 09:59 GMT 

Joined: Mon November 23rd, 2009, 20:21 GMT
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http://www.uncut.co.uk/features/recordi ... -all-37854

"There aren’t really any outtakes from “Love And Theft”. There are a couple of alternate takes, a lot of outtakes, but they weren’t fully complete unfortunately, or maybe the vocal wasn’t up to par, because Bob was just kind of still going through it. Bob, often, wouldn’t really start truly singing until he felt the band was getting their groove together, he would just kind of mumble through a take and listen to them, and say, “Okay, that’s not really working, let’s try something else.” There was one outtake I was trying to get put on Tell Tale Signs, though, the very first take of “Lonesome Day Blues,” because, it might have been the first track we did, we had the whole band playing in the room, and there’s a moment when it’s the first time the band really got their groove together, and Bob was just starting to sing it, and as the song progresses, you can hear him getting really into and the band really getting into it, the song builds up.

But the thing was, the first two verses were just Bob not really singing, because he wasn’t sure if it was right yet. But by that third verse he starts singing, and by the fifth he’s just *really* leaning into it. I distinctly remember that moment, standing in the control room watching the band, everyone in the control room, the hair on the back of the neck was standing up, people are saying, “Oh my God, this sounds amazing.” When it came to whether or not to put it on the new record, though, we had to decide that, for the listener, because the first two verses aren’t really there, it’s just not a fully satisfying experience.

On “Love And Theft” and Modern Times, Bob would sometimes come in with reference tracks, old songs, saying, “I want the track to be like this.” So, like, on Modern Times, there’s the Muddy Waters track [“Trouble No More”] that eventually became “Someday Baby”. He’d come in and present these templates and use them as reference points. The songs were pretty much written before he came in, they weren’t jammed out, but it was a case of him trying to get the band to play them the way he heard it. And sometimes that meant going down all these detours, “Okay it’s not really working like this, let’s try it like this.”

Like on the new Bootleg Series record, there’s the slow version of “Someday Baby” on there, the kind of gospel one. That was just like, he was getting kind of frustrated with the “Muddy Waters” version not coming together, and, after dinner I think, he walked back into the room and George Receli, his drummer, was tapping out that groove, and Bob sat down at the piano, and all of a sudden they came up with *that* version. We really raced to record that, I think it was only done for one or two takes. I think the vocal is pretty much untouched, maybe just one or two lines he changed later. And I think the reason he abandoned *that* version was that he was still really stuck on the Muddy Waters version. And, also, because he may have thought it sounded a little too much like Time Out Of Mind."


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PostPosted: Wed January 3rd, 2018, 16:37 GMT 

Joined: Mon August 28th, 2006, 20:35 GMT
Posts: 323
EternalCircle1 wrote:
http://www.uncut.co.uk/features/recording-with-bob-dylan-chris-shaw-tells-all-37854

"There aren’t really any outtakes from “Love And Theft”. There are a couple of alternate takes, a lot of outtakes, but they weren’t fully complete unfortunately, or maybe the vocal wasn’t up to par, because Bob was just kind of still going through it. Bob, often, wouldn’t really start truly singing until he felt the band was getting their groove together, he would just kind of mumble through a take and listen to them, and say, “Okay, that’s not really working, let’s try something else.” There was one outtake I was trying to get put on Tell Tale Signs, though, the very first take of “Lonesome Day Blues,” because, it might have been the first track we did, we had the whole band playing in the room, and there’s a moment when it’s the first time the band really got their groove together, and Bob was just starting to sing it, and as the song progresses, you can hear him getting really into and the band really getting into it, the song builds up.

But the thing was, the first two verses were just Bob not really singing, because he wasn’t sure if it was right yet. But by that third verse he starts singing, and by the fifth he’s just *really* leaning into it. I distinctly remember that moment, standing in the control room watching the band, everyone in the control room, the hair on the back of the neck was standing up, people are saying, “Oh my God, this sounds amazing.” When it came to whether or not to put it on the new record, though, we had to decide that, for the listener, because the first two verses aren’t really there, it’s just not a fully satisfying experience.

On “Love And Theft” and Modern Times, Bob would sometimes come in with reference tracks, old songs, saying, “I want the track to be like this.” So, like, on Modern Times, there’s the Muddy Waters track [“Trouble No More”] that eventually became “Someday Baby”. He’d come in and present these templates and use them as reference points. The songs were pretty much written before he came in, they weren’t jammed out, but it was a case of him trying to get the band to play them the way he heard it. And sometimes that meant going down all these detours, “Okay it’s not really working like this, let’s try it like this.”

Like on the new Bootleg Series record, there’s the slow version of “Someday Baby” on there, the kind of gospel one. That was just like, he was getting kind of frustrated with the “Muddy Waters” version not coming together, and, after dinner I think, he walked back into the room and George Receli, his drummer, was tapping out that groove, and Bob sat down at the piano, and all of a sudden they came up with *that* version. We really raced to record that, I think it was only done for one or two takes. I think the vocal is pretty much untouched, maybe just one or two lines he changed later. And I think the reason he abandoned *that* version was that he was still really stuck on the Muddy Waters version. And, also, because he may have thought it sounded a little too much like Time Out Of Mind."


That is a fascinating excerpt and a great interview overall, but I don't entirely trust it. Engineers are predisposed to think of things in terms of "the take" -- the one that clicked for everyone and immediately was slated to be worked on after the fact (beginning stages of mixing, dialed-in EQ, any edits/overdubs, etc.). To most engineers, everything that happens before a select take -- even if it's not THE take on the final record -- is just preproduction. But the fans probably would like to hear that preproduction quite a bit, and there's probably even a lot of salvageable records there that never made it past the preproduction reel just 'cause they weren't "the take."

I would bet there are tons of unreleased studio takes from the Jack Frost era that are definitely good enough to sell to the fans.


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PostPosted: Wed January 3rd, 2018, 18:10 GMT 

Joined: Sat April 22nd, 2017, 12:50 GMT
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Quote:
I would bet there are tons of unreleased studio takes from the Jack Frost era that are definitely good enough to sell to the fans.


As a fan,usually I'd like them to release all the studio takes so I can fill up my collection, which is definitely lacking a lot of outtakes. Lately, I have been trying not to buy everything that comes out though, because as ḿuch as I like hearing how the songs evolve from preproduction, it's not really cleaned-up enough for the general public to hear or appreciate-i know. Always frustrating though to exert self-control when there's so much to buy thats fun to hear :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed January 3rd, 2018, 18:36 GMT 
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It seems unlikely but the idea of having a full disc's worth of takes for each song, like we do with Tell Old Bill, is just so tantalizing - and so many of those takes are worth listening to from a fan's perspective. In fact, about 4 of them were "better" than the one they ended up using!


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PostPosted: Thu January 4th, 2018, 06:58 GMT 
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Tell Tale Signs really works as a lot of the songs included are totally different from the released versions. If they recorded Nettie More and Workingman's Blues#2 (where is #1?) loads of times and they were pretty similar to what ended up on Modern Times I think I could live without them.


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PostPosted: Thu January 4th, 2018, 10:03 GMT 
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I think Modern Times was the album where they used Pro Tools extensively and worked really hard at splicing and arranging, shining the songs up and moulding them a certain way.

So my guess is that although there might be multiple takes of songs, most of them are the same arrangement and were stripped for parts in order to make the 'perfect' take that wound up on the album.

Which is why we will probably never hear these sessions. It would be a bit of a sad Wizard of Oz curtain-pull....

Having said that, I've no doubt there are some among you who would actually get off on hearing 25 mangled versions of 'Spirit On The Water'.


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PostPosted: Thu January 4th, 2018, 10:06 GMT 

Joined: Mon November 23rd, 2009, 20:21 GMT
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dvdunplugged wrote:
Tell Tale Signs really works as a lot of the songs included are totally different from the released versions. If they recorded Nettie More and Workingman's Blues#2 (where is #1?) loads of times and they were pretty similar to what ended up on Modern Times I think I could live without them.


a little off-topic but this is #1: https://youtu.be/fbEstJ98TcM It's a Merle Haggard song.


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PostPosted: Thu January 4th, 2018, 12:38 GMT 
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Great stuff, so is that why the #2 was added to Bob's song? If it was, it's true what they say - you learn something new every day!


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PostPosted: Thu January 4th, 2018, 22:11 GMT 

Joined: Mon August 28th, 2006, 20:35 GMT
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dvdunplugged wrote:
Great stuff, so is that why the #2 was added to Bob's song? If it was, it's true what they say - you learn something new every day!

Not sure if that's ever been officially confirmed, but I think lots of people have always assumed it. It makes a certain amount of sense, I suppose.

On the other hand, "Rollin' & Tumblin'" should have been probably credited as Trad. arr. Dylan in the liner notes! :lol:

I suppose we've never expected him to be consistent in acknowledging/referencing his sources and/or inspirations.


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