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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 12:44 GMT 
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Just asking


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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 13:38 GMT 
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Most likely never (the only known outtakes are a small session between Bob and George Harrison, and the Woody Guthrie tribute evening show).
They could fall out of copyright and most people won't even show a bit of interest for them.


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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 14:12 GMT 

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BobDylan66 wrote:
Most likely never (the only known outtakes are a small session between Bob and George Harrison, and the Woody Guthrie tribute evening show).
They could fall out of copyright and most people won't even show a bit of interest for them.


Agreed. Would 1969 be a contender? Or would the "Another Self Portrait" have the main bits covered and the might let the rest slip, considering they were mostly covers and not easy to market anyway?

Is the remaining 1969 in circulation or is that kind of a 1967 scenario all over again? They seemed to have been very keen to protect even the low quality 1963/64 live recordings that were in circulation, even though they clearly don't have any future use for them so one would assume they take care of everything that's been known to have leaked?


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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 16:21 GMT 
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1969 would definitely be covered for the Dylan/Cash session alone. It is a very popular bootleg and I don't see Sony failing to keep the copyright on it. So 2019 will see a copyright extension collection. Same for Nashville Skyline sessions.
1970 will certainly repeat that pattern with Self Portrait and New Morning sessions (many weren't included on Another Self Portrait and are still available).
1971 has some unreleased and available tracks from the Bangla Desh benefit concert so it will also be covered.
1972 doesn't have much so it could be a scenario similar to 1967-1968 (unless some super collectors has hidden gems I don't know of).
For 1973, we have Pat Garrett and Planet Waves outtakes circulating, so there will be a copyright I guess.
For 1974 and onwards, there are so much bootlegs available I don't know how Sony will keep the copyrights on all of them if they stuck with physical releases (more than 40 shows for the tour with the Band). Maybe they will work with nugs.net like Bruce did to cover them all, or create a complete website like Neil Young did.


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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 16:59 GMT 
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BobDylan66 wrote:
For 1974 and onwards, there are so much bootlegs available I don't know how Sony will keep the copyrights on all of them if they stuck with physical releases (more than 40 shows for the tour with the Band). Maybe they will work with nugs.net like Bruce did to cover them all, or create a complete website like Neil Young did.


The interesting thing is that from 1974 onward there is often more than one (audience) recording of the same event. The 2011 EU copyright law does not address the possibility of more than one recording of the same event having been made. It simply states "A recording must be released within a period of 50 years after fixation (= recording date), otherwise it falls into the public domain (in the EU)." This creates a legal grey area in that it could be interpreted as meaning every single recording of an event needs to be released in order to secure the copyright of each recording.

I was not aware of the nugs.net/Springsteen situation, since I do not follow Springsteen's career, but I guess for Dylan's live recordings from 1974 onward they will have to find a similar solution, in order to keep the circulation of the material under control.

Question about nugs.net/Springsteen: Do they sell audience recordings and if they do, are the tapers reimbursed for the use of their recordings (another legal grey area)?


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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 17:24 GMT 
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My guess is a single recording of a show is enough. If it wasn't the case, we will have grey area releases of audience recordings from the 1966 tour (and there were plenty). Also, from a financial point of view, no one will be interested in a low quality recording if the official one is a soundboard or a very good audience recording (sure those copyright sets aren't meant for sales, but a good buck is still better than nothing). For 1974, most of what Sony has are soundboards.

Regarding nugs.net and the Bruce situation, I think they have a few audience recordings. But since those are rather old (70's and 80's mostly), I don't think there is a clear way to identify the taper of each show. And even if possible, it would certainly be a situation like Frank Zappa and his Beat The Boots collection (repackaged bootlegs with official stamp). Frank never acknowledged the tapers since he wasn't fond of those recordings in the first place and decided to release them just so they won't stay in the market.

With Dylan, it might be different since we have a clear history for every bootleg available since the 70's. So, as a gesture, Sony might (even though not likely) gave credit to bootleggers if they don't have a soundboard of the shows. However, the bootleggers aren't known to reveal their identity to gain credit since it might endanger future recordings (for instance if Crystal Cat came forward and said they taped the shows, the material will be ceased and they could be blacklisted from future venues since they don't respect the policy of no recording of the performance). They could just use their pseudonyme but it would just keep the interest going for the audience recordings and that's not good for business.

This of course is purely hypothetical. We'll see in 2024 or earlier.


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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 17:42 GMT 
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I think the whole copyright thing for BobWorld is over for quite a while.


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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 19:50 GMT 

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Re: audience tapes post-1974:

If memory serves, the UK copyright code flat out states that such audience tapes are contraband--unlike the U.S., where such recordings enjoy a certain amount of protection provided the owner does not attempt to monetize a recording by selling copies of it.

Again, if memory serves: A previous attempt to reform the US copyright code and criminalize such live recordings was overturned in the courts, in a case where KISS tried to use the new law to go after the owner of a vintage pro-shot concert video (presumably somebody with the access and the foresight in the pre-VHS era to simply record the video feed and hang on to a copy.) KISS lost, and the result is the current situation where it is permissible to own master recordings, including multi-track masters, of live performances, and force the artists on the recordings to pay a licensing fee to use the recordings.


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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 21:02 GMT 

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[quote="My Echo, My Shadow And Me"]The interesting thing is that from 1974 onward there is often more than one (audience) recording of the same event. The 2011 EU copyright law does not address the possibility of more than one recording of the same event having been made. It simply states "A recording must be released within a period of 50 years after fixation (= recording date), otherwise it falls into the public domain (in the EU)." This creates a legal grey area in that it could be interpreted as meaning every single recording of an event needs to be released in order to secure the copyright of each recording.

Don't think that's true. In that case they would have been putting out all the known tapes up until 1966, but they never issued more than one version. Unless you found a loophole that Sony's lawyer's didn't think of, I think one version should do.

Also, not sure when it became standard practice to print "no recordings" on the tickets, but wouldn't they be able to fight any release (even beyond the 50 year mark) if the recording was made illegally?


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PostPosted: Mon January 1st, 2018, 23:39 GMT 
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Handsomeinthefog wrote:
My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:
The interesting thing is that from 1974 onward there is often more than one (audience) recording of the same event. The 2011 EU copyright law does not address the possibility of more than one recording of the same event having been made. It simply states "A recording must be released within a period of 50 years after fixation (= recording date), otherwise it falls into the public domain (in the EU)." This creates a legal grey area in that it could be interpreted as meaning every single recording of an event needs to be released in order to secure the copyright of each recording.


Don't think that's true. In that case they would have been putting out all the known tapes up until 1966, but they never issued more than one version. Unless you found a loophole that Sony's lawyer's didn't think of, I think one version should do.

Also, not sure when it became standard practice to print "no recordings" on the tickets, but wouldn't they be able to fight any release (even beyond the 50 year mark) if the recording was made illegally?


Up until 1966 there are not a lot of shows of which more than one recording exists and in the rare cases where additional tapes are circulating, they are of such bad quality that even the public domain labels will not touch them (see audience tapes from Edinburgh, Bristol), so Sony simply ignored them and did not issue any duplicate recordings (they only used bad audience tapes to fill holes in their own collection of recordings).

But anyway, I do not think that Sony need to lose sleep over a possible legal grey area in EU legislature, because no public domain label interested in releasing recordings that may be out of copyright will take Sony to court. ;-)


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PostPosted: Tue January 2nd, 2018, 03:51 GMT 
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http://www.bjorner.com/DSN01660%201968.htm

I love the released Woody Guthrie songs that have not been released. The George Harrison songs would be cool to hear. This release would not break the bank at all. I hope they release it.


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PostPosted: Tue January 2nd, 2018, 11:57 GMT 
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For the George Harrison songs, here they are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlYY9Rz ... zS&index=3


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PostPosted: Tue January 2nd, 2018, 13:22 GMT 

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goodmeats wrote:
http://www.bjorner.com/DSN01660%201968.htm

I love the released Woody Guthrie songs that have not been released. The George Harrison songs would be cool to hear. This release would not break the bank at all. I hope they release it.


The Guthrie stuff that was released came out on Warner Bros., so it's likely that they control the rights. They would most likely let it slip, question is: Could Bob make them put out the stuff to protect *his* rights?


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PostPosted: Tue January 2nd, 2018, 13:42 GMT 

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Handsomeinthefog wrote:
goodmeats wrote:
http://www.bjorner.com/DSN01660%201968.htm

I love the released Woody Guthrie songs that have not been released. The George Harrison songs would be cool to hear. This release would not break the bank at all. I hope they release it.


The Guthrie stuff that was released came out on Warner Bros., so it's likely that they control the rights. They would most likely let it slip, question is: Could Bob make them put out the stuff to protect *his* rights?

It won't be coming out so it's a moot point I guess. The five tracks Dylan played on the first night are all released and protected and the second night tracks don't circulate. Absolutely no need for them ever to come out in those circumstances (now that we know the JWH tracks didn't come out because they don't circulate) and they're only duplicates of what was performed on the first night anyway.

The only other two tracks from that year which are known could, perhaps, sneak out as a Record Store Day single which would be a very nice way of making them available.


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PostPosted: Sat January 6th, 2018, 14:29 GMT 
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BobDylan66 wrote:
Most likely never (the only known outtakes are a small session between Bob and George Harrison, and the Woody Guthrie tribute evening show).
They could fall out of copyright and most people won't even show a bit of interest for them.


BobDylan66 wrote:
1969 would definitely be covered for the Dylan/Cash session alone. It is a very popular bootleg and I don't see Sony failing to keep the copyright on it. So 2019 will see a copyright extension collection. Same for Nashville Skyline sessions.
1970 will certainly repeat that pattern with Self Portrait and New Morning sessions (many weren't included on Another Self Portrait and are still available).
1971 has some unreleased and available tracks from the Bangla Desh benefit concert so it will also be covered.
1972 doesn't have much so it could be a scenario similar to 1967-1968 (unless some super collectors has hidden gems I don't know of).
For 1973, we have Pat Garrett and Planet Waves outtakes circulating, so there will be a copyright I guess.
For 1974 and onwards, there are so much bootlegs available I don't know how Sony will keep the copyrights on all of them if they stuck with physical releases (more than 40 shows for the tour with the Band). Maybe they will work with nugs.net like Bruce did to cover them all, or create a complete website like Neil Young did.


Thanks to “66” for this nice neat little summary, all in one place.
The trick (for me) will be remembering where the heck it is.


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PostPosted: Sat January 6th, 2018, 14:35 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
BobDylan66 wrote:
Most likely never (the only known outtakes are a small session between Bob and George Harrison, and the Woody Guthrie tribute evening show).
They could fall out of copyright and most people won't even show a bit of interest for them.


BobDylan66 wrote:
1969 would definitely be covered for the Dylan/Cash session alone. It is a very popular bootleg and I don't see Sony failing to keep the copyright on it. So 2019 will see a copyright extension collection. Same for Nashville Skyline sessions.
1970 will certainly repeat that pattern with Self Portrait and New Morning sessions (many weren't included on Another Self Portrait and are still available).
1971 has some unreleased and available tracks from the Bangla Desh benefit concert so it will also be covered.
1972 doesn't have much so it could be a scenario similar to 1967-1968 (unless some super collectors has hidden gems I don't know of).
For 1973, we have Pat Garrett and Planet Waves outtakes circulating, so there will be a copyright I guess.
For 1974 and onwards, there are so much bootlegs available I don't know how Sony will keep the copyrights on all of them if they stuck with physical releases (more than 40 shows for the tour with the Band). Maybe they will work with nugs.net like Bruce did to cover them all, or create a complete website like Neil Young did.


Thanks to “66” for this nice neat little summary, all in one place.
The trick (for me) will be remembering where the heck it is.

Bookmark, go easy on the pot, and you'll be OK, Pops :P


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