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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 20:18 GMT 
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goodnitesteve wrote:
oldfan wrote:
if you want to hear them (JWH outtakes) come to NYC and pay a visit to mr. b.


Where do we find this Mr. B?


Between Mr A and Mr C.


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 21:17 GMT 
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Maybe he's dancing with Mr. D.


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 21:21 GMT 

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gibsona07 wrote:
Maybe he's dancing with Mr. D.


i.e. one of the most rare songs the Rolling Stones performed in recent years and I heared every version performed after 1973 (except Zurich but including the soundcheck at Hamburg)!


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 22:43 GMT 

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h.egbert wrote:
I got an email this morning from bobdylan.com

I thought it was the download code for the new copyright protection release.

But they only wanted to sell me another BS13 as a christmas gift for somebody.


One of the reasons I ordered TROUBLE NO MORE from bobdylan.com (besides, of course, getting the San Diego '79 freebie) was the hope they'd later surprise me with an offer (free or otherwise) for a JWH Copyright Release download. I haven't totally given up hope yet... but it's dwindling away.


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PostPosted: Fri December 22nd, 2017, 15:04 GMT 
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20YearsAgo wrote:
I haven't totally given up hope yet... but it's dwindling away.


Thinking back.
The first one, ‘The Copyright Extension Collection Vol. I,’ didn’t drop till after Xmas.
63 vinyl dropped in Nov
64 vinyl, not sure when that came, seems around Christmas?
65 & 66 were either covered by the Bootleg Series or downloadable by year end.

Anyways, it’s still quite possible.


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PostPosted: Fri December 22nd, 2017, 15:49 GMT 
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Sony have already said 'It won't happen' and given their reasons. Whether or not we agree with them, I doubt it will change in the next week. Given how many people actually complained that Cutting Edge (the 18cd set) was boring, when in truth it was what everyone lusted after way before the dawn of the internet (any one of those out-takes would have been pored over and revered like gold dust in the 70s) I can hardly blame them from an aesthetic point of view. Commercially, it wouldn't sell much even if they released an expanded edition of JWH - they might recoup costs and a few 'bob' over years, but why bother for such small returns? The general public doesn't yearn for this. I admit it is hard to see why they'd avoid some kind of profit, but until someone loots Tulsa, so be it. A European bootleg of JWH outtakes next year wouldn't sell that many copies frankly.

Of course a private link to the tracks would be nice, but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

This may be an 'out there' suggestion, but perhaps Bob knows what a great album it was, and doesn't want to dilute it with different takes? Sometimes less really is more. The rest is imagination - yours, not his. I can imagine how it sounds, and that's fine.


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PostPosted: Fri December 22nd, 2017, 17:07 GMT 
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Pm me the amazon link when these are in the public domain


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 12:24 GMT 
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slimtimslide wrote:
Sony have already said 'It won't happen' and given their reasons.

What were their reasons again?
Apologies if already stated in this thread...


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 12:44 GMT 
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BobDylan66 wrote:
I won't be convinced there are no release of 1967 material until January 1st 2018.

Yup.


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 13:27 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
slimtimslide wrote:
Sony have already said 'It won't happen' and given their reasons.

What were their reasons again?
Apologies if already stated in this thread...


Next year marks the 50th anniversary of John Wesley Harding, but there won’t be any copyright-protection release of the raw sessions for a simple reason: bootleggers never got their hands on the session tapes.

source: rollingstone.com, October 17, 2016

An additional reason for the material staying in the vaults is probably that it is not considered interesting enough for future mainstream Sony releases, so they do not need to secure the EU copyright of the recordings. They have many much more interesting projects lined up already.


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 14:59 GMT 
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My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:
Still Go Barefoot wrote:
What were their reasons again?


Next year marks the 50th anniversary of John Wesley Harding, but there won’t be any copyright-protection release of the raw sessions for a simple reason: bootleggers never got their hands on the session tapes.

source: rollingstone.com, October 17, 2016


Thanks for quoting that Echo.
That's basically the only "official" word, everything else being pure speculation.
Basing the future on the past in this case seems funny, since the odds of a leak only increase.
Might as well have it "protected," one would think.
Still a week left to casually, quietly release it.


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 16:23 GMT 
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The problem is in another article from Rolling Stone about the Tulsa Archives here:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/news ... n-20160303

The main curator said this about JWH:
"It's such a mysterious record," he says. "I heard a couple of alternate takes of 'All Along The Watchtower' that were, to me as a fan, just incredible."
A click on the first take of "As I Went Out One Morning" reveals a drastically slowed-down, dirge-like rendition of the song.

Why then describe those sessions saying they are amazing and not secure them? For the previous copyright releases, many weren't even known to exist (Time They Are Changin sessions for 1963, Eric Von Schmidt Tape and Royal Festival Hall for 1964, the live 1965 shows). And for those sessions, they knew the law was passed everywhere so it wasn't a copyright dump like the first one "just in case".
And Tulsa doesn't count as a public release regarding the eu directive (first it's not in the EU and second the public doesn't have access to it yet).

So will they really take the risk? We'll see but for me it will be plain stupid to just play against the odds.


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 17:32 GMT 
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My money is on no dice. Bob, Inc isn’t necessarily verbose to a fault so when they say something I usually listen. Specifically addressing this carries a lot of weight to me. Why say anything at all if they were going to release this? It’s not what we want to hear, so we want to ignore it.


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 17:37 GMT 

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btw: Today The Rolling Stones released some live stuff from 1967 on itunes – most likely to protect their copyrights
https://itunes.apple.com/de/album/67-se ... 1324782022


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 17:44 GMT 
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BobDylan66 wrote:
The problem is in another article from Rolling Stone about the Tulsa Archives here:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/news ... n-20160303

The main curator said this about JWH:
"It's such a mysterious record," he says. "I heard a couple of alternate takes of 'All Along The Watchtower' that were, to me as a fan, just incredible."
A click on the first take of "As I Went Out One Morning" reveals a drastically slowed-down, dirge-like rendition of the song.

Why then describe those sessions saying they are amazing and not secure them? For the previous copyright releases, many weren't even known to exist (Time They Are Changin sessions for 1963, Eric Von Schmidt Tape and Royal Festival Hall for 1964, the live 1965 shows). And for those sessions, they knew the law was passed everywhere so it wasn't a copyright dump like the first one "just in case".
And Tulsa doesn't count as a public release regarding the eu directive (first it's not in the EU and second the public doesn't have access to it yet).

So will they really take the risk? We'll see but for me it will be plain stupid to just play against the odds.

Agreed, it makes sense to release it, based on what we know.
I’ll accept either way it goes, like every grain of salt.


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 18:12 GMT 
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slewan wrote:
btw: Today The Rolling Stones released some live stuff from 1967 on itunes – most likely to protect their copyrights
https://itunes.apple.com/de/album/67-se ... 1324782022


I was just about to post this, too. Really odd collection of tracks. Included is the Paris 1967 radio tape (OK quality, but several cuts), some TV recordings and two Bill Wyman studio tracks from the Satanic Majesties sessions. So, they secure the copyright for two Wyman tunes, but let 8 CDs worth of material from the same sessions that is circulating in excellent quality fall into the public domain in the EU?!


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 18:29 GMT 
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BobDylan66 wrote:
The problem is in another article from Rolling Stone about the Tulsa Archives here:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/news ... n-20160303

The main curator said this about JWH:
"It's such a mysterious record," he says. "I heard a couple of alternate takes of 'All Along The Watchtower' that were, to me as a fan, just incredible."
A click on the first take of "As I Went Out One Morning" reveals a drastically slowed-down, dirge-like rendition of the song.

Why then describe those sessions saying they are amazing and not secure them? For the previous copyright releases, many weren't even known to exist (Time They Are Changin sessions for 1963, Eric Von Schmidt Tape and Royal Festival Hall for 1964, the live 1965 shows). And for those sessions, they knew the law was passed everywhere so it wasn't a copyright dump like the first one "just in case".
And Tulsa doesn't count as a public release regarding the eu directive (first it's not in the EU and second the public doesn't have access to it yet).

So will they really take the risk? We'll see but for me it will be plain stupid to just play against the odds.


The "The Times They Are A-Changin'" material, the Eric Von Schmidt Tape and the Royal Festival Hall tape from 1964 all were in the hands of collectors (though not circulating freely), so there was the possibility of the recordings falling into the hands of the public domain labels and therefore the Dylan organization/Columbia/Sony decided to protect the copyrights of the recordings in the EU via "Anniversary Collections". Most of the 1965 shows taped by Pennebaker's team also were not circulating, but they had been sitting in Pennebaker's archive for quite some time and nobody knew if copies had perhaps been made, so the Dylan organization/Columbia/Sony secured the copyrights just in case.

I think the Tulsa archive staff have been specifically referencing the JWH sessions in their contacts with the press, because they know that the material will remain exclusive to them (e.g. there will be no "Anniversary Collection" release and no mainstream "Bootleg Series" release of the material) and they can exploit its potential in a presentation at the museum in Tulsa (once it has been opened).


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 20:45 GMT 
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I agree with you, but what if someone finds a way to record those tracks at the archive and then release them? Nothing will block it since it is public domain.
Regarding Beatles/Stones copyrights, Atco and Apple have a very different strategy, maybe because the fanbase is far larger than Dylan. No matter what happen to the copyright, people will shell out for those recordings. Also, they are quite agressive on youtube videos and links for bootlegs, so those sessions won't stay up like Dylan (at least that's the case in recent years).
Anyway, we'll be settle next friday.


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PostPosted: Sat December 23rd, 2017, 20:51 GMT 
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My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:

I think the Tulsa archive staff have been specifically referencing the JWH sessions in their contacts with the press, because they know that the material will remain exclusive to them (e.g. there will be no "Anniversary Collection" release and no mainstream "Bootleg Series" release of the material) and they can exploit its potential in a presentation at the museum in Tulsa (once it has been opened).


Well, it's not like Tulsa is a magnetically desirable visitation destination.
I mean, really....
Not even sure exclusive JWH outtakes would create much catalyst either.


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PostPosted: Sun December 24th, 2017, 14:54 GMT 
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My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:
Next year marks the 50th anniversary of John Wesley Harding, but there won’t be any copyright-protection release of the raw sessions for a simple reason: bootleggers never got their hands on the session tapes.

source: rollingstone.com, October 17, 2016

An additional reason for the material staying in the vaults is probably that it is not considered interesting enough for future mainstream Sony releases, so they do not need to secure the EU copyright of the recordings. They have many much more interesting projects lined up already.

If the Dylan Inc. denial of a Copyright 1967 set holds out -- and it certainly looks that way at the moment -- then it only makes me regret more that they didn't expand Bootleg Series 10 to include the JWH sessions (and more of the Nashville Skyline sessions). Even if they only thought a few tracks were "interesting" enough to use, they could have added them to ASP and covered the whole "Country Bob" period.

Also, the whole "bootleggers never got the tapes" explanation still doesn't make sense to me. Probably 80% of Big Blue had never been leaked or booted before either, and they still saw fit to package and release every take. I'd bet that the JWH sessions are at least as interesting as hearing dozens of breakdowns of 1965 and 1966 tracks...


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PostPosted: Mon December 25th, 2017, 00:55 GMT 

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Here we go!!!


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PostPosted: Mon December 25th, 2017, 01:29 GMT 

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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:

I think the Tulsa archive staff have been specifically referencing the JWH sessions in their contacts with the press, because they know that the material will remain exclusive to them (e.g. there will be no "Anniversary Collection" release and no mainstream "Bootleg Series" release of the material) and they can exploit its potential in a presentation at the museum in Tulsa (once it has been opened).


Well, it's not like Tulsa is a magnetically desirable visitation destination.
I mean, really....
Not even sure exclusive JWH outtakes would create much catalyst either.

I would imagine that after traveling to Tulsa, prospective listeners will need to make an appointment and sign a form or two ("I understand that these materials are protected under U.S. law and that the Museum may revoke my license to view or listen to these materials at any time...I understand that any attempt to record, copy and/or reproduce museum material will result in my immediate expulsion from the Museum..." before being escorted to a private listening room.


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PostPosted: Mon December 25th, 2017, 09:10 GMT 

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If no 1967 Copyright Extension collection comes out by December 27th, we can always celebrate the 50th anniversary of the release of John Wesley Harding that day (at least in the States, in Europe it came out (later) in January '68), and play the sole outtake that we do have, that extended version of 'I'll be your baby tonight' which is on the 1997 recalled Biograph SBM remaster.


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PostPosted: Mon December 25th, 2017, 14:28 GMT 
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Brickbat wrote:
...the sole outtake that we do have, that extended version of 'I'll be your baby tonight' which is on the 1997 recalled Biograph SBM remaster.

Remind again about this. I live under a rock.


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PostPosted: Mon December 25th, 2017, 16:17 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Brickbat wrote:
...the sole outtake that we do have, that extended version of 'I'll be your baby tonight' which is on the 1997 recalled Biograph SBM remaster.

Remind again about this. I live under a rock.


It's not really an outtake; it's the regular JWH track, but with a complete end rather than the original quick fade.

"Biograph" was re-issued in August 1997 in the U.S. It contained four "errors", including an unfaded "I'll Be Your Baby Tonight" from JWH. It has about 8 additional seconds of somewhat wayward harmonica at the end. It's not altogether surprising that the track was rapidly faded out on JWH.

About five thousand copies of this edition of "Biograph" escaped before it was recalled and replaced with the regular "Biograph" in October 1997, thus making it as rare as "The Cutting Edge Collector's Edition".

Further details here:-

http://www.searchingforagem.com/1990s/1997.htm

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