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PostPosted: Tue September 12th, 2017, 14:01 GMT 

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Always thought Guy's song Like a coat from the cold had a strange similarity to Bob's Is your love in vain. Take a listen and remark. Perhaps Bob had that song in mind when he wrote IYLIV. I can see it....as Guy was just as good a song writer as Bob....and Bob himself would tell you that.


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PostPosted: Tue September 12th, 2017, 14:11 GMT 
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He definitely listened to the 'outlaw' songwriters, but i think out of that crowd
of songwriters he maybe rated Townes Van Zandt and later, Steve Earle over
Guy Clark, but i'm only going off the artists he's covered songs of.
I seem to remember once reading an interview where he once said he'd
been listening to a latter day Rodney Crowell album, which i think was
'The Houstin Kid'. Ive already done a google search to see if i could link
said interview. It'd have been either the Melody Maker or one of those UK
Magazines that i used to read, i definitely remember him talking about
Crowell and Zevon when asked what he was listening to at that time
(this would've been circa 2002'ish)


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PostPosted: Tue September 12th, 2017, 14:51 GMT 

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Well to me Townes Van Zandt was the greatest songwriter. I know that is blasphemy on this board.....but it is what it is. The thing is Bob is by far the more influential writer. If there were no Bob they may not have been a TZV. Not taking anything away from Dylan's song writing prowess as I have been a mega Bob fan for 30 years.....however I have come to learn over these years that Bob has "borrowed" a LOT of material. And yeah yeah yeah....it's the folk way....blah blah blah....LOL!


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PostPosted: Tue September 12th, 2017, 19:09 GMT 
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Bobby would agree that other writers are better than him.
He massively under estimates himself.
Could Dylan have written 'Poncho And Lefty'?
Maybe he could, certainly in the 1975-1976 period.
Then again, there's 'Tweeter And The Monkey Man'.

Townes is an impeccable writer.
Gordan Lightfoot is one of Dylan's favourites and one of
mine too. Jim Croce is another great song writer, but
he didn't get to really establish himself.

But yep, Dylan would certainly think most of the guys
we've mentioned are as good if not better than he is.
When you're an artist, you tend not to listen to your
own music, so i can see why he feels the way he does
about other songwriters.


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PostPosted: Tue September 12th, 2017, 23:32 GMT 
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I don't know. I love Guy Clark's songs, and TVZ too. David Olney and Billy Joe Shaver.
Lyle Lovette, Ray Wylie Hubbard, Rodney Crowell too. Willie Nelson too.
All those texas guys, write a lot great songs, but none of them has the range of songs Dylan
has written over the years. Seems like Dylan has had several lifetimes already.


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PostPosted: Tue September 12th, 2017, 23:36 GMT 
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My personal taste is to lean toward Leonard Cohen being a more
accomplished poet and Dylan being the more accomplished songwriter,
Dylan has more musical scope in his recordings than Cohen ever did,
but i think they're both amazing writers.
I'd certainly place Cohen above the Texan songwriters mentioned so far,
although Townes was undoubtedly brilliant.


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PostPosted: Tue September 12th, 2017, 23:55 GMT 
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LibraChild1980 wrote:
My personal taste is to lean toward Leonard Cohen being a more
accomplished poet and Dylan being the more accomplished songwriter,
Dylan has more musical scope in his recordings than Cohen ever did,
but i think they're both amazing writers.
I'd certainly place Cohen above the Texan songwriters mentioned so far,
although Townes was undoubtedly brilliant.


Yeah, I agree, Cohen is more of a pure poet. Dylan's scope is rather
amazing. The songs on BOTT are great songs, but not like his earlier folk songs.
The best of Townes and Guy Clark are right up there, IMHO.
Townes was a poet of the rocky road of dust & demons.


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PostPosted: Wed September 13th, 2017, 04:23 GMT 
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I hear it, for sure.


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PostPosted: Wed September 13th, 2017, 07:15 GMT 
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It's unimaginable that Dylan wouldn't rate Guy Clark highly. There's a similar feel to the two songs but it seems a common progression and feel...the jury would be out on that one, for me.


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PostPosted: Wed September 13th, 2017, 12:28 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
It's unimaginable that Dylan wouldn't rate Guy Clark highly. There's a similar feel to the two songs but it seems a common progression and feel...the jury would be out on that one, for me.


Dylan definitely borrowed the tune for "Things Have Changed" from that Marty Stuart song about the crow.


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PostPosted: Wed September 13th, 2017, 12:54 GMT 
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Yes, jury has returned unanimous on Things Have Changed.


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PostPosted: Wed September 13th, 2017, 13:28 GMT 

Joined: Fri December 9th, 2005, 20:47 GMT
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Appreciate all the feedback but take a listen to Clark's LIKE A COAT FROM THE COLD. You will no doubt agree Dylan had that song/tune in mind when he penned Is your love in vain.


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PostPosted: Wed September 13th, 2017, 15:22 GMT 
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rtocchet wrote:
Appreciate all the feedback but take a listen to Clark's LIKE A COAT FROM THE COLD. You will no doubt agree Dylan had that song/tune in mind when he penned Is your love in vain.


Definitely will do, i love Street Legal so i'm interested to hear Guy Clark's song.


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PostPosted: Wed September 13th, 2017, 17:46 GMT 
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rtocchet wrote:
Appreciate all the feedback but take a listen to Clark's LIKE A COAT FROM THE COLD. You will no doubt agree Dylan had that song/tune in mind when he penned Is your love in vain.


I agree, it must have been floating around. The chords and melody are pretty common so it may have been totally unintentional. Right out of the gate they're the same cadence, chords and melody. But then there is an extra chord and it goes in another direction. I never heard it before. If I was driving and this song came on the radio, I'd instantly start singing "Is your love in vain?" only to be a little disappointed that it doesn't keep going.


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PostPosted: Thu September 14th, 2017, 06:20 GMT 

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The geniuses of such songwriters as Townes Van Zandt and Leonard Cohen are like islands of perfection. And nobody can rise above the peaks in their specific territories - including Dylan (even though 'Tomorrow Is a Long Time' sounds like something that could have grown on Townes Island, and perhaps 'Every Grain of Sand' could match a Cohen crop). Dylan's songwriting is not a perfect island, but rather a great continent.


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PostPosted: Thu September 14th, 2017, 20:05 GMT 
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CS_Nielsen wrote:
The geniuses of such songwriters as Townes Van Zandt and Leonard Cohen are like islands of perfection. And nobody can rise above the peaks in their specific territories - including Dylan (even though 'Tomorrow Is a Long Time' sounds like something that could have grown on Townes Island, and perhaps 'Every Grain of Sand' could match a Cohen crop). Dylan's songwriting is not a perfect island, but rather a great continent.


a great way to put it. Someone pushed a bunch of islands together and formed a continent.
It has some nice peaks too.


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PostPosted: Thu September 14th, 2017, 21:21 GMT 
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Here's an excellent solo rendition from 1985 of said Guy Clark song;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOmoBy7ajmI

The run down is similar and i can see how Dylan may have heard this
and decided he wanted to utilise a similar vibe for 'Is Your Love In Vain'.


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PostPosted: Thu September 14th, 2017, 21:48 GMT 
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Good thread & agree to the overall similarity. It'd be interesting to discuss Bob songs that lifted their tune/lyrics/arrangements from contemporary artists. I posted this on some other ER thread re the similarity between Bob's 'Mississippi' and Tom Waits' 'Rosie' (Bob even includes the line "I dreamed that I was sleeping in Rosie's bed" - as a kind of acknowledgement?) All very subjective :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXy4dDJz-60


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PostPosted: Thu September 14th, 2017, 22:30 GMT 

Joined: Tue February 28th, 2017, 14:22 GMT
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shipcomesin wrote:
Good thread & agree to the overall similarity. It'd be interesting to discuss Bob songs that lifted their tune/lyrics/arrangements from contemporary artists. I posted this on some other ER thread re the similarity between Bob's 'Mississippi' and Tom Waits' 'Rosie' (Bob even includes the line "I dreamed that I was sleeping in Rosie's bed" - as a kind of acknowledgement?) All very subjective :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXy4dDJz-60


Thanks for pointing out the similarities between "Mississippi" and "Rosie." I can't listen to Waits because his mental illness impairs his singing, so I'd never heard his song. If it did influence Dylan, we're left with a superior example of the artist's axiom "It's not what you lift, it's where you take it."


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PostPosted: Fri September 15th, 2017, 00:00 GMT 
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Bob has always been a magpie, he has a great ear for sources.


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