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PostPosted: Sat May 13th, 2017, 12:15 GMT 
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Futile Horn wrote:

Wouldn't say "second to none", because the nearest comparison point, Florence Jenkins, was at least as passionate and sincere as Dylan now is.



Hahahaha! And spot on!

The idea that passion and sincerity are hallmarks of great art is pure fanboy fantasy. In fact, emotional detachment and artifice are the more usual weapons of the supremely talented artist. I'm glancing at my bookshelves right now - Shakespeare, Nabokov, Stan Lee...all the greats - and I don't sniff an ounce of 'authenticity'. Just talent.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13th, 2017, 14:12 GMT 
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'Authenic' defines as 'true', 'genuine', 'real' and so on. Paradoxically, very much artifice may need to be applied by a great artist in order to disclose truth. Passion may have nothing to do with it, but I doubt much great art emerged as a product of indifference. Sincerity is a vaguer and more esoteric quality to define, but if by it you mean honesty, no great art could be made without some degree of it.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13th, 2017, 14:51 GMT 

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littlemaggie wrote:
Futile Horn wrote:

Wouldn't say "second to none", because the nearest comparison point, Florence Jenkins, was at least as passionate and sincere as Dylan now is.



Hahahaha! And spot on!

The idea that passion and sincerity are hallmarks of great art is pure fanboy fantasy. In fact, emotional detachment and artifice are the more usual weapons of the supremely talented artist. I'm glancing at my bookshelves right now - Shakespeare, Nabokov, Stan Lee...all the greats - and I don't sniff an ounce of 'authenticity'. Just talent.


Stan Lee, eh? Nothing to do with singing or music. Still haven't read an explanation for what it is that Billie Holiday has that Ella Fitzgerald doesn't have. Music aficionados can hear it. What is the content that Sonny Rollins adds that Kenny G omits? The name calling here is unseemly (fanboy?).


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PostPosted: Sat May 13th, 2017, 14:54 GMT 

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Mickvet wrote:
'Authenic' defines as 'true', 'genuine', 'real' and so on. Paradoxically, very much artifice may need to be applied by a great artist in order to disclose truth. Passion may have nothing to do with it, but I doubt much great art emerged as a product of indifference. Sincerity is a vaguer and more esoteric quality to define, but if by it you mean honesty, no great art could be made without some degree of it.


Well said. The more you learn the more artifice you discover but there is something else there: content, a payload, something beyond mere talent.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13th, 2017, 15:39 GMT 
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The simple fact of the matter is that singers are performers and what they do is essentially the same as what actors do. They act. That is what the art of singing is - acting. A good actor or singer may convey what the audience believes to be sincerity, passion and honesty - or 'authenticity', whatever that means - but it is a performance.

By the very nature of it, can any performance ever be 'authentic'? It's just silly to pretend that is the case. Using such words does nothing but intrude on any sensible analysis of the art in question.

Dylan's performance of the songs is the only thing worth discussing in regards to the worth, or lack of it, of 'Triplicate'. It really doesn't matter how honest, sincere or authentic a fanboy (not name-calling, just factually descriptive) believes Dylan to be - fanboys are obviously not going to be accurate in their criticism of Dylan by dint of their being fanboys. They have too much emotional involvement in Dylan to be able to accurately assess his performance, so they will gush meaningless words like 'authenticity' and 'sincerity' instead of simply admitting they are in love/obsessed with/infatuated by Bob Dylan and everything he does and therefore feel a connection with his work that non-fans do not feel. It is that connection that creates the supposed 'authenticity', not the performances themselves.

And of course the connection between Dylan and his fans is the least authentic thing of all.


monklover wrote:
Still haven't read an explanation for what it is that Billie Holiday has that Ella Fitzgerald doesn't have. Music aficionados can hear it.


Both Billie Holiday and Ella Fitzgerald were brilliant singers and they both has qualities the other didn't have. 'Music aficionados' can hear the qualities of both, and enjoy both for what they are. A fanboy however would insist on placing one above the other when there is no need to do so.

I am listening to an album of divine vocal duets by Ella and Louis Armstrong as I type: a peak of jazz/pop singing, in my opinion. They sound like they are authentically having a ball. Maybe they actually hated each other and singing together was an ordeal - it doesn't matter one jot.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13th, 2017, 16:12 GMT 
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Billie Holiday conveyed heartbreak through her singing as convincingly as any singer I can think of. The biographies tell us she suffered heartbreaks throughout her life. But was she heartbroken at her recording sessions? I doubt it. She was a professional singer, and she was performing. That's what art is.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13th, 2017, 17:42 GMT 
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The Bard wrote:
Authenticity is in the ear of the beholder.


Yes, I agree.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 00:20 GMT 
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Personally speaking, any so called folk who admit to not buying the magnificent Triplicate album should be kicked off this forum immediately.

All folk have the freedom to say and do what they want, but when it becomes unreasonable, then they have to be challenged.

I think Triplicate is an amazing masterpiece of a work... an opus.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 00:45 GMT 
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littlemaggie,

If you look back at when I used the big bad A-word that everybody's so terrified of, or don't seem to understand, I was replying to dvdunplugged's statement that he prefers someone with a wider vocal range to sing American Standards. My reply was that I prefer the "authenticity of expression" — the actual term that is used and defined in existential philosophy and aesthetics, not the flimsy, skin-deep use of the word generally that you used in your post; you're attacking a straw man — that vocalists can bring to these songs, rather than vocal acrobatics or what one would define as vocally, melodically sound. In the same way that I would prefer to hear Geeshie Wiley sing the blues then I would John Mayer, and nobody can sing the blues like Blind Willie McTell.

Is this okay with you? Unfortunately the time-period allowed to edit that particular post is long gone. I hope I haven't offended you or effected your general sense of well-being on this planet of ours.

Sincerely,

mystic garden

P.S. I love you


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 01:18 GMT 
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mjmooney wrote:
It's strikes me that those who have a strong aversion to SITN/FA/Triplicate fall into two distinct camps:
(1) Those who simply don't like the pre-60s, 'American Songbook' genre at all, and
(2) Those who DO like that era/style, but feel that Bob is has made a godawful hash of the job.

Initially, I fell firmly into the second category, but I must admit I've warmed to the albums the more I've listened to them. I do feel he could have exercised a bit more quality control - some renditions are so far off-key they're painful, and should have either been redone or dropped. But by and large, I've come to appreciate the boozy barroom melancholy of the project. And it's also sent me back to the Sinatra albums, which are (mostly) superb.


I have found that I have liked them more as time has passed.
I think that is because I have stopped wishing they were albums of original compositions and started appreciating them as albums in their own right.

They really came to life for me when I was fortunate enough to attend 2 recent concerts. Bob pours his heart and soul into them and that's what I like to see. I have no love for Sinatra et al. Bob doing these songs has not made me listen to one Sinatra album or had me seek out any original versions.

I think it is fair to say that I am more of a Bob Dylan fan than I am a music fan. Does that even make sense? Oh well.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 08:24 GMT 

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Yes, it makes sense, The Bard. Personally, I'm very much a music fan, particularly a fan of 20th Century American music in all its forms (I'm a Brit, btw). And one reason I love Dylan is that he clearly loves - and plays - that same huge tapestry of styles. If you read "Chronicles", or listen to Theme Time Radio Hour, it all makes sense - he grew up with Sinatra and all that pre-rock era music - and it has as much power to him (and me) as Elvis, Hank Williams, Leadbelly, Woody Guthrie and all the rest. I can see a perfect continuity running through his albums, from the debut, via the 65/66 trilogy, the Basement Tapes, Nashville Skyline, the gospel albums... all the way up to the recent 'controversies'. He writes in different styles - but he admitted in his recent interview that he doesn't have the required skills to write songs like Gershwin or Cole Porter, so he sticks to the untouchable originals. Like I said above, you have to steel yourself to some tracks that he should have taken more care over, but the *feel* of the tracks that he gets right are rather wonderful. It's the 'barroom' approach, and rather wish he'd included "One For My Baby (And One For The Road)" - after all, he'd done his own Basement Tapes take on the idea. I've been with Dylan since 1963, and he's never adopted a musical style that I didn't like (even the Jesus albums, although as an atheist I had to grit my teeth at the lyrics). Plenty of errors of judgement in song selection or production approach, sure, but his influences and changes of style have all been great. Long may he continue.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 14:27 GMT 

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littlemaggie wrote:
Billie Holiday conveyed heartbreak through her singing as convincingly as any singer I can think of. The biographies tell us she suffered heartbreaks throughout her life. But was she heartbroken at her recording sessions? I doubt it. She was a professional singer, and she was performing. That's what art is.


No, she wasn't heartbroken at her sessions. STRAW MAN! Ever heard of memory? Yes, it's acting and performing but previous experience and intent are part of the package.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 14:40 GMT 

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littlemaggie wrote:
It really doesn't matter how honest, sincere or authentic a fanboy (not name-calling, just factually descriptive) believes Dylan to be - fanboys are obviously not going to be accurate in their criticism of Dylan by dint of their being fanboys. They have too much emotional involvement in Dylan to be able to accurately assess his performance, so they will gush meaningless words like 'authenticity' and 'sincerity' instead of simply admitting they are in love/obsessed with/infatuated by Bob Dylan and everything he does and therefore feel a connection with his work that non-fans do not feel. It is that connection that creates the supposed 'authenticity', not the performances themselves.

And of course the connection between Dylan and his fans is the least authentic thing of all.


"Fanboy" is patronizing, pure and simple. I don't doubt that there is a connection but some posters on this forum are familiar with plenty other music. So when they attest that they hear something I regard it as a little more than "fanboy." They're sharing an experience that I've had with other music. I admit I'm still giggling when I play Triplicate.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 15:44 GMT 
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monklover wrote:
Still haven't read an explanation for what it is that Billie Holiday has that Ella Fitzgerald doesn't have. Music aficionados can hear it. What is the content that Sonny Rollins adds that Kenny G omits?


For purposes of comparison - Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man

Billie Holiday - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzb-HmY6-sM

Ella - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikAXH7fIgT4

Both of them were great, but there's no female singer i love more than Billie Holiday.
There's something in her voice that can make me cry....Judy Garland has that quality
in her voice, too. 8)


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 18:34 GMT 
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monklover wrote:

"Fanboy" is patronizing, pure and simple. I don't doubt that there is a connection but some posters on this forum are familiar with plenty other music. So when they attest that they hear something I regard it as a little more than "fanboy." They're sharing an experience that I've had with other music. I admit I'm still giggling when I play Triplicate.


I laughed long and hard the first and only time I heard it too.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 19:09 GMT 

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You either like it or you don't, simple as that m8s!


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PostPosted: Sun May 14th, 2017, 19:30 GMT 
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HarvestRoad wrote:
You either like it or you don't, simple as that m8s!


If YOU CAN'T EXTRAPOLATE SIMPLE BINARY DECISIONS INTO MANY THOUSANDS OF POSTS OF INCESSANT SUBJECTIVE ARGUMENT, WHY DO YOU EVEN COME HERE???


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PostPosted: Mon May 15th, 2017, 11:17 GMT 

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McG wrote:
HarvestRoad wrote:
You either like it or you don't, simple as that m8s!


If YOU CAN'T EXTRAPOLATE SIMPLE BINARY DECISIONS INTO MANY THOUSANDS OF POSTS OF INCESSANT SUBJECTIVE ARGUMENT, WHY DO YOU EVEN COME HERE???


I don't think it's binary at all. If it wasn't Dylan, noboby liked this.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16th, 2017, 11:32 GMT 
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monklover wrote:
Still haven't read an explanation for what it is that Billie Holiday has that Ella Fitzgerald doesn't have.

Not sure this stays on topic with the discussion going on here but my answer to that question is that Billie´s voice is a mystery. There is something that she hides when she sings, that way of ending a phrase with a... erm... bit of a pitch or something, very evokative, very alluring. Ella, and most other singers in history, don´t have this


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PostPosted: Tue May 16th, 2017, 11:57 GMT 
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wormington wrote:
monklover wrote:
Still haven't read an explanation for what it is that Billie Holiday has that Ella Fitzgerald doesn't have.

Not sure this stays on topic with the discussion going on here but my answer to that question is that Billie´s voice is a mystery. There is something that she hides when she sings, that way of ending a phrase with a... erm... bit of a pitch or something, very evokative, very alluring. Ella, and most other singers in history, don´t have this

FANBOY! YOU'RE MERELY PROJECTING... ONLY A FANBOY WOULD PLACE ONE ABOVE THE OTHER!

I agree: Billie > Ella for reasons I won't explain so as not to inflict any responses that will only bring about more eyestrain for the kind folk of ER


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PostPosted: Tue May 16th, 2017, 12:18 GMT 
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mystic garden wrote:
FANBOY! YOU'RE MERELY PROJECTING... ONLY A FANBOY WOULD PLACE ONE ABOVE THE OTHER!

Guilty as charged, I am indeed one of those, and of the dumbest kind, mystic man, but do I look like I care? I´m a sucker for rating and X vs Y kind of topics, silly and pointless as they are. If there any other threads of this kind around point them to me and I´ll be right there!


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PostPosted: Tue May 16th, 2017, 16:33 GMT 
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Status: bought.

Listened to it: 2 or 3 times (only one disc at a time, can't stand much more than that)

Opinion: dislike.


Will report back in a few weeks.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17th, 2017, 05:15 GMT 
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ApocalypseKurtz wrote:
Status: bought.

Listened to it: 2 or 3 times (only one disc at a time, can't stand much more than that)

Opinion: dislike.

Will report back in a few weeks.



Status: not bought. Waiting for it to turn up in charity shops or greatly reduced in record stores.

Listened to it: Never, just bits and pieces (the singles) and the tracks I've seen him play live. neither have endeared it to me thus far. One disc of twelve tracks would have been ample, the three discs are what turns it into a turkey. I also couldn't stand much more than one disc at a listening session.

Opinion: My gut feeling is that I won't like it much, 30 songs such as these are too many.

Will report back in a few weeks if I find a copy.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17th, 2017, 07:25 GMT 
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Shouldnt this be called the "Why havent I bought Triplicate when I own Knocked out loaded and Down in the groove" topic.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17th, 2017, 13:13 GMT 

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Desolation Row wrote:
Shouldnt this be called the "Why havent I bought Triplicate when I own Knocked out loaded and Down in the groove" topic.


Probably. I confess to owning Down in the Groove. My excuse is that I like the cover songs. Even still.


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