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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 12:30 GMT 
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Winter Lude wrote:
Foggy wrote:
Honestly, the fact that you would apparently laud the covers on the Basement Tapes (for example) and despise those on Triplicate, probably suggests more about you and your own prejudices than anything else. Despise both, but not one of them--at least be consistent.



That's ridiculous. My mind is open with Dylan. If it sounds good to me, then I like it. If it sounds like garbage, then I don't. What I like or don't like is not determined by any logic other than that. It's certainly not determined by some contrived premise that since I like covers Dylan did decades ago, then I have to like all his covers, which means I have to like the Sinatra covers. That's a premise that relies on ones own prejudices.

Well done for skewering such flawed logic.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 12:58 GMT 
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I think I see things from a different perspective than some of you guys and gals. Truth is I've always liked Bob Dylan for his originality but I am quite eclectic in my musical tastes. I have loads of Sinatra's stuff on the Capitol label am a big fan of Tony Bennett. I must have seen Tony Bennett perform songs such as these about eight times and I thoroughly enjoy his performances of them. I still can't get my head around someone like Bob Dylan with his 'limited' vocal range recording or performing them in bulk. One or two maybe, but a set of 30 such songs is a bit too much to take!


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 13:38 GMT 
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dvdunplugged wrote:
I think I see things from a different perspective than some of you guys and gals. Truth is I've always liked Bob Dylan for his originality but I am quite eclectic in my musical tastes. I have loads of Sinatra's stuff on the Capitol label am a big fan of Tony Bennett. I must have seen Tony Bennett perform songs such as these about eight times and I thoroughly enjoy his performances of them. I still can't get my head around someone like Bob Dylan with his 'limited' vocal range recording or performing them in bulk. One or two maybe, but a set of 30 such songs is a bit too much to take!

I guess to me it's about the authenticity of the voice behind the songs. I hear it in Sinatra, maybe not so much in Bennett, certainly not in Buble — but, in Dylan? Yes, 100%. The irony, the yearning, the melancholy, the defeatedness, the triumph of self over pain and lost love. It is all there in Triplicate; it's a real man at the end of his tether. I feel him enjoying and playing with these words written before and around the time he was born like they relate to his own life and legacy, like they written by him and for him, and it's both sad and triumphant. It's both self-aware and full of satire and utterly revealing and tender. He's the sad clown on the front of Sinatra's Only the Lonely — he was always our clown.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 13:40 GMT 
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Yes to all in the above post, but SITN and FA were enough for me.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 14:41 GMT 

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McG wrote:
escapeedrifter wrote:
How dare someone disagree with meeeeeee. They must be mental :D


Oh please. Hands up those who prefer Triplicate to the Basement Tapes.

There you go.


This is the popularity argument; if they sell more Adele she must be stupendous. The covers on Basement Tapes are mostly garbage. What's interesting is the original material. No surprise because Dylan never meant for any of it to be released. He was flushed out by the bootleggers and touts and myth makers. Sure I prefer that original material over Triplicate.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 14:53 GMT 
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mystic garden wrote:
dvdunplugged wrote:
I think I see things from a different perspective than some of you guys and gals. Truth is I've always liked Bob Dylan for his originality but I am quite eclectic in my musical tastes. I have loads of Sinatra's stuff on the Capitol label am a big fan of Tony Bennett. I must have seen Tony Bennett perform songs such as these about eight times and I thoroughly enjoy his performances of them. I still can't get my head around someone like Bob Dylan with his 'limited' vocal range recording or performing them in bulk. One or two maybe, but a set of 30 such songs is a bit too much to take!

I guess to me it's about the authenticity of the voice behind the songs. I hear it in Sinatra, maybe not so much in Bennett, certainly not in Buble — but, in Dylan? Yes, 100%. The irony, the yearning, the melancholy, the defeatedness, the triumph of self over pain and lost love. It is all there in Triplicate; it's a real man at the end of his tether. I feel him enjoying and playing with these words written before and around the time he was born like they relate to his own life and legacy, like they written by him and for him, and it's both sad and triumphant. It's both self-aware and full of satire and utterly revealing and tender. He's the sad clown on the front of Sinatra's Only the Lonely — he was always our clown.


Nonsense. Authenticity is a made up concept. You just like Bob Dylan, that's all.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 15:08 GMT 

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McG wrote:
mystic garden wrote:
I guess to me it's about the authenticity of the voice behind the songs. I hear it in Sinatra, maybe not so much in Bennett, certainly not in Buble — but, in Dylan? Yes, 100%. The irony, the yearning, the melancholy, the defeatedness, the triumph of self over pain and lost love. It is all there in Triplicate; it's a real man at the end of his tether. I feel him enjoying and playing with these words written before and around the time he was born like they relate to his own life and legacy, like they written by him and for him, and it's both sad and triumphant. It's both self-aware and full of satire and utterly revealing and tender. He's the sad clown on the front of Sinatra's Only the Lonely — he was always our clown.


Nonsense. Authenticity is a made up concept. You just like Bob Dylan, that's all.


It might not be the aptest term for expression but there are different ways to express songs. Listen to Holiday versus an Ella Fitzgerald for examples. There is something different in the expression even though Fitzgerald has the more supple instrument, three plus octaves. Is authenticity the correct term? You can argue it isn't. What would you suggest?


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 15:29 GMT 
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Its gotta be upto mystic to explain how you hear authenticity surely?
My new nike trainers feel authentic, but they are indeed fakes! How can you be sure of your own vision of authenticity :D


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 15:32 GMT 

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escapeedrifter wrote:
Its gotta be upto mystic to explain how you hear authenticity surely?
My new nike trainers feel authentic, but they are indeed fakes! How can you be sure of your own vision of authenticity :D


Oh, so sorry. This is a forum so I commented because there is something singers express that every listener recognizes. If someone calls it authenticity and is instructed that the term is meaningless we need some other word.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 15:37 GMT 
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No, sorry mate that wasnt ment as a criticism of your post. I just thought before we throw the term out the water we could hear what is ment by the poster of the A word.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 15:53 GMT 
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monklover wrote:
It might not be the aptest term for expression but there are different ways to express songs. Listen to Holiday versus an Ella Fitzgerald for examples. There is something different in the expression even though Fitzgerald has the more supple instrument, three plus octaves. Is authenticity the correct term? You can argue it isn't. What would you suggest?


Some top of me head thoughts:

Likeability, that's probably the correct term. Simple and as infinitely complex as that - a matrix of your genetic material and experience leading to the firing of neurons in a certain way when you hear certain frequencies combined, lighting up your sensory pathways in a pleasurable experience you want to repeat.

What I do find interesting is this - singing's another instrument in the mix, and yet, how can you remove the singer from their vocal chords? If Nina Simone had Bob Dylan's voice, would she still destroy my heart every time I heard her? That's an experiment that would answer your 'authenticity' question. Science, make it happen!

Expressiveness? I could argue that Miles Davis is a far more expressive singer than Bob Dylan.

I see it here all the time, that ridiculous cliche about Dylan being able to express himself better than any other singer. It's complete bollocks. They're no doubt saying that on the Ed Sheeran forum or equivalent.

I saw him at Wembley the other night and I didn't for one minute get the impression he was living any of the songs. Desolation Row might as well have been about a new range of stairlifts for all the impact his singing had. His performances in '66, by contrast.....

On the subject of Triplicate, it all sounds so scabby and hammy to me, pretty much the opposite of your 'authentic' expression of song.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 16:04 GMT 

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McG wrote:
monklover wrote:
It might not be the aptest term for expression but there are different ways to express songs. Listen to Holiday versus an Ella Fitzgerald for examples. There is something different in the expression even though Fitzgerald has the more supple instrument, three plus octaves. Is authenticity the correct term? You can argue it isn't. What would you suggest?


Some top of me head thoughts:

Likeability, that's probably the correct term. Simple and as infinitely complex as that - a matrix of your genetic material and experience leading to the firing of neurons in a certain way when you hear certain frequencies combined, lighting up your sensory pathways in a pleasurable experience you want to repeat.

What I do find interesting is this - singing's another instrument in the mix, and yet, how can you remove the singer from their vocal chords? If Nina Simone had Bob Dylan's voice, would she still destroy my heart every time I heard her? That's an experiment that would answer your 'authenticity' question. Science, make it happen!

Expressiveness? I could argue that Miles Davis is a far more expressive singer than Bob Dylan.

I see it here all the time, that ridiculous cliche about Dylan being able to express himself better than any other singer. It's complete bollocks. They're no doubt saying that on the Ed Sheeran forum or equivalent.

I saw him at Wembley the other night and I didn't for one minute get the impression he was living any of the songs. Desolation Row might as well have been about a new range of stairlifts for all the impact his singing had. His performances in '66, by contrast.....


Fair enough. How do you distinguish expression from infirmity (Miles Davis could barely speak much less sing)? So I would infer that you lean toward the 100% subjective viewpoint, emotivism or whatever. I'm not too far from that point of view, although I seem to believe in some collection of initiates to whom a convincing performance would be evident and worthy of discussion (of course this needn't be the one you just attended). If worthy of discussion then words will be resorted to. "Authenticity" is a difficult one, very much of its era when there seemed to be a gap between show biz and those who went Dylan's way. Now the idealism is put away and I must admit that it is performance for money.

As for Dylan and Simone and subjectivity, are there any Dylan vocals that rise to the sublime or is it just the words you like?


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 16:13 GMT 
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McG wrote:
On the subject of Triplicate, it all sounds so scabby and hammy to me, pretty much the opposite of your 'authentic' expression of song.


To their great credit the band perform very well on SITN and FA and I suspect likewise on Triplicate. Dylan's choice of musicians has probably been the saving grace of all these albums whether you like them or not. Furthermore I often wonder what the band feel about this new path they are being taken down. I know they get paid anyways but it would be interesting to know what they really think.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 16:14 GMT 
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Great post, i would say likeability, as youve descibed it is spot on. I always thought by expressing himself, it summed up that dylan dosent, and for a long time hasnt tried to please anyone but himself, he has no big bad manager pushing him in musical directions, to meet sales targets and appeal to any stereotype.


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PostPosted: Thu May 11th, 2017, 23:28 GMT 
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McG wrote:
mystic garden wrote:
I guess to me it's about the authenticity of the voice behind the songs. I hear it in Sinatra, maybe not so much in Bennett, certainly not in Buble — but, in Dylan? Yes, 100%. The irony, the yearning, the melancholy, the defeatedness, the triumph of self over pain and lost love. It is all there in Triplicate; it's a real man at the end of his tether. I feel him enjoying and playing with these words written before and around the time he was born like they relate to his own life and legacy, like they written by him and for him, and it's both sad and triumphant. It's both self-aware and full of satire and utterly revealing and tender. He's the sad clown on the front of Sinatra's Only the Lonely — he was always our clown.


Nonsense. Authenticity is a made up concept. You just like Bob Dylan, that's all.


Oh? Are we talking philosophy here? Linguistics? Sorry, I had no idea. Is anybody denying authenticity is a concept? Of course it is, how could it not be? It goes back to the pre-socratics, was revisited by Kierkegaard and Heidegger, and became an important concept in existentialist philosophy and aesthetics.

If we're speaking aesthetics, I would say that Dylan's sincerity, genuineness of expression, and passion that he puts into these standards is almost second to none, as previously mentioned. If we're speaking philosophy, I would say Dylan has for the most part lived out his life-work outside of bad faith, and has lived the life of what Heidegger would call an authentic Dasein.

Good enough, or do I need to write an essay?


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PostPosted: Fri May 12th, 2017, 04:52 GMT 
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mystic garden wrote:
.

If we're speaking aesthetics, I would say that Dylan's sincerity, genuineness of expression, and passion that he puts into these standards is almost second to none, as previously mentioned.


On a scale of 1 to 63 please list the amounts of these individual aspects that Bob displays in comparison with all other singers, providing evidence for your calculations.

There we go, it's that hoary old cliche again. Utter bollocks. Your assertion stems from your confirmation bias, your love of Bob Dylan. That's fair enough, but all you can really say is you like listening to this album. Authenticity is a redundant term in this context.




.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12th, 2017, 05:19 GMT 
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McG wrote:
mystic garden wrote:
If we're speaking aesthetics, I would say that Dylan's sincerity, genuineness of expression, and passion that he puts into these standards is almost second to none, as previously mentioned.


On a scale of 1 to 63 please list the amounts of these individual aspects that Bob displays in comparison with all other singers, providing evidence for your calculations.

There we go, it's that hoary old cliche again. Utter bollocks. Your assertion stems from your confirmation bias, your love of Bob Dylan. That's fair enough, but all you can really say is you like listening to this album. Authenticity is a redundant term in this context.


No

& authenticity is not a redundant term in this context, how can it be? We're speaking of aesthetics, the branch of philosophy that deals with art, which music falls within, which Triplicate falls within. Authenticity is a major field of interest for those that study aesthetics, judging whether a work or an artist's intentions are that or not, whether that be nominal authenticity or expressive authenticity. Authenticity is not redundant in this context — that cannot possibly even be up for debate — but you are more than welcome to have your opinion of Dylan's last three albums not possessing expressive authenticity.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12th, 2017, 05:56 GMT 

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McG wrote:
On the subject of Triplicate, it all sounds so scabby and hammy to me, pretty much the opposite of your 'authentic' expression of song.


Unlike Shadows which had the complete opposite effect on you.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12th, 2017, 06:00 GMT 
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Foggy wrote:
McG wrote:
On the subject of Triplicate, it all sounds so scabby and hammy to me, pretty much the opposite of your 'authentic' expression of song.


Unlike Shadows which had the complete opposite effect on you.


Shadows is a tightly focused vision without any of the flab and only a sprinkling of the cheese that Triplicate is buried beneath.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12th, 2017, 06:32 GMT 

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McG wrote:
Shadows is a tightly focused vision without any of the flab and only a sprinkling of the cheese that Triplicate is buried beneath.


So, to be scientific about it, excess skin flaps and a smattering of gorgonzola prevent the matrix of your genetic material and experience leading to the firing of neurons in a certain way when you hear certain frequencies combined, lighting up your sensory pathways in a pleasurable experience you want to repeat.

That's all cleared up, then! :D


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PostPosted: Fri May 12th, 2017, 06:47 GMT 
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Foggy wrote:
McG wrote:
Shadows is a tightly focused vision without any of the flab and only a sprinkling of the cheese that Triplicate is buried beneath.


So, to be scientific about it, excess skin flaps and a smattering of gorgonzola prevent the matrix of your genetic material and experience leading to the firing of neurons in a certain way when you hear certain frequencies combined, lighting up your sensory pathways in a pleasurable experience you want to repeat.

That's all cleared up, then! :D


There's my new signature, cheers.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12th, 2017, 08:40 GMT 
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Authenticity is in the ear of the beholder.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12th, 2017, 15:30 GMT 

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It's strikes me that those who have a strong aversion to SITN/FA/Triplicate fall into two distinct camps:
(1) Those who simply don't like the pre-60s, 'American Songbook' genre at all, and
(2) Those who DO like that era/style, but feel that Bob is has made a godawful hash of the job.

Initially, I fell firmly into the second category, but I must admit I've warmed to the albums the more I've listened to them. I do feel he could have exercised a bit more quality control - some renditions are so far off-key they're painful, and should have either been redone or dropped. But by and large, I've come to appreciate the boozy barroom melancholy of the project. And it's also sent me back to the Sinatra albums, which are (mostly) superb.


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PostPosted: Fri May 12th, 2017, 21:39 GMT 
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mjmooney wrote:
It's strikes me that those who have a strong aversion to SITN/FA/Triplicate fall into two distinct camps:
(1) Those who simply don't like the pre-60s, 'American Songbook' genre at all, and
(2) Those who DO like that era/style, but feel that Bob is has made a godawful hash of the job.

Initially, I fell firmly into the second category, but I must admit I've warmed to the albums the more I've listened to them. I do feel he could have exercised a bit more quality control - some renditions are so far off-key they're painful, and should have either been redone or dropped. But by and large, I've come to appreciate the boozy barroom melancholy of the project. And it's also sent me back to the Sinatra albums, which are (mostly) superb.


I agree, I do like some of the "Great American Songbook" songs in the right hands or voice, like Frank or Ella's.
Bob's, not so much, at least not five albums worth. Some of those songs are jazz standards as well.
Like Stan Getz doing Autumn Leaves...for example.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13th, 2017, 09:15 GMT 

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mystic garden wrote:
If we're speaking aesthetics, I would say that Dylan's sincerity, genuineness of expression, and passion that he puts into these standards is almost second to none, as previously mentioned.


Wouldn't say "second to none", because the nearest comparison point, Florence Jenkins, was at least as passionate and sincere as Dylan now is.


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