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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 13:06 GMT 
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Sweetheart68 wrote:
No. They do not. They just think they do because Europeans think they are the snotty cultural center of the universe.


Where else are you thinking of ?


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 13:13 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
gibsona07 wrote:
America hasn't been at war since 1898, actually.


What do you call the ongoing military pro-oil anti-terror activities?


gibsona07 wrote:
Well, it is war - but to officially declare war the president has to get approval from both houses, however they can authorise military operations for 60 days without going through the houses. When the 60 days is up they just authorise another 60 days. It really makes a mockery of democracy and the 'land of the free'. It's what they did for both world wars, Vietnam, Iraq and every other war since 1898.


A war by any other name would be as deadly.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 13:37 GMT 
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redbear wrote:
redbear wrote:
It is very simple: Europeans have a dream and the name of this dream is America. Some Americans reflect this dream very strong. Bob is one of them.
Our dream of America has nothing to do with flags, but with the idea of freedom and democracy, of peace and songs like "This land is your land"

Lovely posts, redbear. 8)


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 13:45 GMT 
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To quote our Bob, in turn quoting Samuel Johnson, patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 14:35 GMT 
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redbear wrote:
It is very simple: Europeans have a dream and the name of this dream is America. Some Americans reflect this dream very strong. Bob is one of them.


Close. At the same time, I'm sure a lot of Europeans consider many Americans very dim bulbs - and the election of Trump rightly reinforces that sentiment, unfortunately.

But with Bob Dylan, yes, he reflects the best of America and the artistic freedom our democracy affords us.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 14:45 GMT 

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chrome horse wrote:
redbear wrote:
It is very simple: Europeans have a dream and the name of this dream is America. Some Americans reflect this dream very strong. Bob is one of them.


Close. At the same time, I'm sure a lot of Europeans consider many Americans very dim bulbs - and the election of Trump rightly reinforces that sentiment, unfortunately.

But with Bob Dylan, yes, he reflects the best of America and the artistic freedom our democracy affords us.


The U.S. has no difficulty drawing immigrants from all over the world. Europe will have its own Trumps soon enough. Suffice it to say that it wasn't the European elites that emigrated to the U.S. to begin with.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 15:22 GMT 
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gibsona07 wrote:
To quote our Bob, in turn quoting Samuel Johnson, patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.


Someone recently told me it doesn't mean what it means.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 15:29 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
gibsona07 wrote:
To quote our Bob, in turn quoting Samuel Johnson, patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.


Someone recently told me it doesn't mean what it means.


It's not a Bob Dylan quote, and I don't get the connection trying to be made. It's someone projecting their own idea on Bob Dylan - which is a cheap shot. How about an actual quote Mr. Gibson?


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 15:35 GMT 
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In fact, Dylan distances himself from the quotation: "They say that patriotism is the last refuge, to which a scoundrel clings..."


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 15:36 GMT 

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chrome horse wrote:

It's not a Bob Dylan quote, and I don't get the connection trying to be made. It's someone projecting their own idea on Bob Dylan - which is a cheap shot. How about an actual quote Mr. Gibson?


It's Dylan quoting "they", "they say patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings (!), steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Pretty funny line and Dr. Johnson just makes it that much funnier.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 15:40 GMT 
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chrome horse wrote:
It's someone projecting their own idea on Bob Dylan - which is a cheap shot.


Isn't everyone doing that? Everyone seems to want Bob on their side.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 15:44 GMT 
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A great alternative title to this thread might have been "Are Europeans Jealous that Bob Dylan is a Product of America and Not Europe?".


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 15:56 GMT 

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chrome horse wrote:
A great alternative title to this thread might have been "Are Europeans Jealous that Bob Dylan is a Product of America and Not Europe?".


That would be like me lamenting that Debussy was French. Makes no sense.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:12 GMT 
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chrome horse wrote:
A great alternative title to this thread might have been "Are Europeans Jealous that Bob Dylan is a Product of America and Not Europe?".


Why? He has plenty of Old World influences through his family.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:13 GMT 
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monklover wrote:
chrome horse wrote:
A great alternative title to this thread might have been "Are Europeans Jealous that Bob Dylan is a Product of America and Not Europe?".


That would be like me lamenting that Debussy was French. Makes no sense.


Right. Also, American created Bob Dylan - the unique environment that we have here.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:14 GMT 
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chrome horse wrote:
A great alternative title to this thread might have been "Are Europeans Jealous that Bob Dylan is a Product of America and Not Europe?".


I would have thought that a large part of the appeal of Dylan to European audiences is the fact of his being American, so jealousy of his not being a product of Europe isn't part of the equation at all. What is most certainly part of the equation is the synergy created by Dylan's AMERICAN-NESS and the European audiences' EUROPEAN-NESS, that would by its very nature be different to that created by his relationship with American audiences.

If Dylan had been born in England in, say, Birmingham, he would have been considered a pretentious oik by audiences before they heard the first strum of his guitar. But as an American, he was different, and mysterious.

If Bob Dylan wasn't American he wouldn't be Bob Dylan.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:19 GMT 
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littlemaggie wrote:

If Bob Dylan wasn't American he wouldn't be Bob Dylan.


That's exactly right.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:23 GMT 
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The who thing is pretty silly really, since Dylan has appreciative fans in Europe, North America and beyond. Must we really create yet another dividing line where really there is non?


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:28 GMT 

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littlemaggie wrote:
If Bob Dylan wasn't American he wouldn't be Bob Dylan.


To the English? Or to Europeans? That's interesting. I'll admit I consider the Englishness of English artists to be accidental if they're good enough for me to appreciate.


Last edited by monklover on Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:29 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:29 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
The who thing is pretty silly really, since Dylan has appreciative fans in Europe, North America and beyond. Must we really create yet another dividing line where really there is non?


There's certainly cultural and political differences, which are not to be ignored. And that's a great thing. For example, some people complain about Mexicans coming to America. They come looking for jobs and a better life - like all immigrants here. And they brought their fabulous Mexican food - what's not to like? For me, a great restaurant is more important than a church.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:32 GMT 
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chrome horse wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
The who thing is pretty silly really, since Dylan has appreciative fans in Europe, North America and beyond. Must we really create yet another dividing line where really there is non?


There's certainly cultural and political differences, which are not to be ignored. And that's a great thing.


Yes, but what's that got to do with the appreciation of Dylan's art?


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:33 GMT 

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chrome horse wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
The who thing is pretty silly really, since Dylan has appreciative fans in Europe, North America and beyond. Must we really create yet another dividing line where really there is non?


There's certainly cultural and political differences, which are not to be ignored. And that's a great thing. For example, some people complain about Mexicans coming to America. They come looking for jobs and a better life - like all immigrants here. And they brought their fabulous Mexican food - what's not to like? For me, a great restaurant is more important than a church.


That's patronizing, isn't it? Real leftist stuff. You could say their art is interesting, their music is great, their devotion is deep, their impact on American culture is long and enduring. But it's about food!


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:38 GMT 
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littlemaggie wrote:
chrome horse wrote:
A great alternative title to this thread might have been "Are Europeans Jealous that Bob Dylan is a Product of America and Not Europe?".


I would have thought that a large part of the appeal of Dylan to European audiences is the fact of his being American, so jealousy of his not being a product of Europe isn't part of the equation at all. What is most certainly part of the equation is the synergy created by Dylan's AMERICAN-NESS and the European audiences' EUROPEAN-NESS, that would by its very nature be different to that created by his relationship with American audiences.

If Dylan had been born in England in, say, Birmingham, he would have been considered a pretentious oik by audiences before they heard the first strum of his guitar. But as an American, he was different, and mysterious.

If Bob Dylan wasn't American he wouldn't be Bob Dylan.

Spot on, Little Mags, spot on. This answers the question originally posed, and all other questions since arising. Spot on!


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:41 GMT 
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Do Dylan fans everywhere appreciate European copyright law? :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 16:43 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
The who thing is pretty silly really, since Dylan has appreciative fans in Europe, North America and beyond. Must we really create yet another dividing line where really there is non?


No, I don't think it's silly at all. Are you suggesting all his appreciative fans around the world appreciate Dylan in exactly the same way?

Obviously, the initial question "Do Europeans Appreciate Bob Dylan More Than Americans?" is silly. But discussion of the different ways fans from different nations appreciate Dylan is far from silly. There is no 'dividing line' being created, as you suggest - just a discussion of the nuances of dissimilarity in those who at first glance would appear to have similar taste.


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