Expecting Rain

Go to main page
It is currently Sat December 16th, 2017, 13:12 GMT

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 336 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 14  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 14:37 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon October 29th, 2007, 08:30 GMT
Posts: 857
Not too many, maybe one when dreaming.
Did Neil Young shot his Baby down by the river?

I mean Bob will not recruit an army from the orphanages, but it describes the situation in some countries very well.


Last edited by rwasser on Thu August 9th, 2012, 14:40 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 14:38 GMT 
Mercury Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed January 28th, 2009, 09:47 GMT
Posts: 10101
Location: A high place of darkness and light
goombay wrote:
rwasser wrote:
A short, incomplete list on people being killed in Dylan's songs before TOOM
And of course it's all about violence.

Willie Rambling, Gambling, Willie
Emmett Till The Death Of Emmett Till
A man Ballad Of Donald White
Young people Masters Of War
Davey Moore Who Killed Davey Moore?
Old Reilley Seven Curses
Seven People Ballad Of Hollis Brown
Indians,
Countless dead
6 million With God On Our Side
Medgar Evers Only A Pawn In Their Game
The Foes When The Ship Comes In
Hattie Carroll The Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carroll
A Hobo Only A Hobo
Four Persons Percy’s Song
St. Augustine I dreamed I Saw St. Augustine
Frankie Lee The Ballad Of Frankie Lee And Judas Priest
George Jackson George Jackson
Mr. Gray Idiot Wind
Big Jim, Lily Lily, Rosemary And The Jack Of Hearts
Three Bodies Hurricane
The Rivals, Joey Joey
Ramon Romance In Durango
Luzifer New Pony
The Innocent,
Nuns and Soldiers The Groom’s Still Waiting At The Altar
Clean Cut Kid Clean Cut Kid
The Gunfighter Brownsville Girl


:wink:
how about them old folk songs he's kin to? like jim jones, arthur mcbride, blood in my eyes. the attempted murder in Candiee i o?


Thats not the point - a cover is a distance between singer and song. And most of those aren't in the first person anyway.

Look - there's a difference between Dylan singing 'I'm gonna punch you in the balls and fuck your dog' and him singing about some other dude doing it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 14:40 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat April 18th, 2009, 21:24 GMT
Posts: 5942
hana wrote:
I can see the violence but I don´t see any glorification of it...



bob songs are reality based :D he don't live in the la la land, he calls em as he sees em. that why his material is so superior. :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 14:44 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat April 18th, 2009, 21:24 GMT
Posts: 5942
Quote:
Look - there's a difference between Dylan singing 'I'm gonna punch you in the balls and fuck your dog' and him singing about some other dude doing it.


:shock:

lotta killers must be loose on the streets. :wink:
a song is a song but its not a song when it doesn't suit our bob bashing purposes. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 14:45 GMT 
Mercury Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed January 28th, 2009, 09:47 GMT
Posts: 10101
Location: A high place of darkness and light
Mate, you're not Bob Dylan - try not to speak like him, it sounds weird.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 14:50 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat April 18th, 2009, 21:24 GMT
Posts: 5942
Bennyboy wrote:
Mate, you're not Bob Dylan - try not to speak like him, it sounds weird.

:!:

:lol:

more crime. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 14:54 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat April 18th, 2009, 21:24 GMT
Posts: 5942
rwasser wrote:
Not too many, maybe one when dreaming.
Did Neil Young shot his Baby down by the river?

I mean Bob will not recruit an army from the orphanages, but it describes the situation in some countries very well.



yes neil did do that. and delia got shot as well. a whole ship got sunk in the golden vanity. :wink:

i believe that tom dula may have shot somebody but i forget. :?:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 15:59 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat October 27th, 2007, 12:44 GMT
Posts: 16794
Location: Workin' as a postal clerk
I think he's definately more taken with violent imagery than he used to be, and more explicit sexual references too (sluts and bitches as whorish as ever). I'm not sure what's behind it. Maybe he's trying to keep his imagery fresh, or least fresh to himself, maybe he feels a certain sense of desperation that these lyrics fit for him. I don't think it's evidence of him becoming more personally violent himself, by any means.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:09 GMT 
Titanium Member

Joined: Wed April 27th, 2011, 03:44 GMT
Posts: 7568
Location: the home for teenage dirt
smoke wrote:
I think he's definately more taken with violent imagery than he used to be, and more explicit sexual references too (sluts and bitches as whorish as ever). I'm not sure what's behind it. Maybe he's trying to keep his imagery fresh, or least fresh to himself, maybe he feels a certain sense of desperation that these lyrics fit for him.


ding ding ding


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:18 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat April 18th, 2009, 21:24 GMT
Posts: 5942
smoke wrote:
I think he's definately more taken with violent imagery than he used to be, and more explicit sexual references too (sluts and bitches as whorish as ever). I'm not sure what's behind it. Maybe he's trying to keep his imagery fresh, or least fresh to himself, maybe he feels a certain sense of desperation that these lyrics fit for him. I don't think it's evidence of him becoming more personally violent himself, by any means.



he didn't jump chumlee. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:19 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Thu September 3rd, 2009, 23:38 GMT
Posts: 1937
Location: Mount Vernon, Washington, USA
Wow. Goombly ramblings aside, it was glorious to wake up this morning to a whole series of intelligent, thoughtful posts. Last night after I made what I feared was a rather didactic comment, I signed off feeling some despair about the direction the whole Early Roman Kings thread was taking. Thank you so very much to MMD, revelator & Benny for steering this thing into a port of sanity. Whether the song is "a masterpiece" or on par with Folsom Prison (or even Jolene) doesn't concern me much -- it's a circuitous discussion that leads nowhere. Whether the narrative voice in Dylan's lyrics has lost its empathy is a far more fascinating concept.

I think mentioning Joey is crucial. For me, it's part of a turning point in Dylan's work in a sense, although I'm almost completely certain he didn't intend it to be. Before Desire, in songs relating to violence or evil, most of Dylan's narrators were idealists, a position you'd expect to hear from a young man. Around '73-'74, we start to get folks like Billy the Kid and the heroes of Romance In Durango & Isis -- gunslingers, outlaws, wild men. Not that I see these songs as reflections of any sort of attitude toward violence; I think what they do reflect is a man willing to play around with the dark side of things, to even enjoy it. Johnny Cash never "shot a man in Reno just to watch him die," but he sure as hell enjoyed singing that line night after night.

Bob did a bit of this with songs like Masters of War -- you don't get much more angry than "stand over your grave till I'm sure that you're dead" -- but it was a righteous anger. That righteousness crystallized in the Gospel years, a time when, as has been stated really well by others, his view of the world became even more black and white. But while he clearly saw himself as on the side of good, it didn't take long for him to realize that his own soul was just as capable of darkness as anyone else's, maybe more so. This is the Johnny Cash dichotomy to a 'T', and, as he aged, it became Bob's as well. Rather than idealistically coming down on the side of good (and God), he started trying out the voice of the other side. Maybe Bob didn't lose empathy for the victims, he just gained it for the killers.

Obviously the songs from WGW and GAIBTY were just the tip of the iceberg, and the exploration of the narrator-as-evil has continued, off and on, for 20 years' worth of material. Some of these forays have been more successful than others (Yeah, I still cringe at some of the lines in Thunder on the Mountain), but to me, this lyric represents a more thoughtful, poetic stab at this theme than any other recent songs, maybe even including the much-heralded Ain't Talkin'. (I haven't decided yet)

It will be interesting to see where the rest of this dark album goes lyrically. Maybe ending with a tribute to Lennon will be a kind of salvation -- it's always darkest before the dawn?

Anyway, great posts today. My faith in ER has been restored.


(Edit: smoke's post, made while I was over-analyzing this one, probably nails what I'm saying far more precisely than I do. But I'm kinda verbose, ya know?)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:21 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat April 18th, 2009, 21:24 GMT
Posts: 5942
movin_after_midnight wrote:
Wow. Goombly ramblings aside, it was glorious to wake up this morning to a whole series of intelligent, thoughtful posts. Last night after I made what I feared was a rather didactic comment, I signed off feeling some despair about the direction the whole Early Roman Kings thread was taking. Thank you so very much to MMD, revelator & Benny for steering this thing into a port of sanity. Whether the song is "a masterpiece" or on par with Folsom Prison (or even Jolene) doesn't concern me much -- it's a circuitous discussion that leads nowhere. Whether the narrative voice in Dylan's lyrics has lost its empathy is a far more fascinating concept.

I think mentioning Joey is crucial. For me, it's part of a turning point in Dylan's work in a sense, although I'm almost completely certain he didn't intend it to be. Before Desire, in songs relating to violence or evil, most of Dylan's narrators were idealists, a position you'd expect to hear from a young man. Around '73-'74, we start to get folks like Billy the Kid and the heroes of Romance In Durango & Isis -- gunslingers, outlaws, wild men. Not that I see these songs as reflections of any sort of attitude toward violence; I think what they do reflect is a man willing to play around with the dark side of things, to even enjoy it. Johnny Cash never "shot a man in Reno just to watch him die," but he sure as hell enjoyed singing that line night after night.

Bob did a bit of this with songs like Masters of War -- you don't get much more angry than "stand over your grave till I'm sure that you're dead" -- but it was a righteous anger. That righteousness crystallized in the Gospel years, a time when, as has been stated really well by others, his view of the world became even more black and white. But while he clearly saw himself as on the side of good, it didn't take long for him to realize that his own soul was just as capable of darkness as anyone else's, maybe more so. This is the Johnny Cash dichotomy to a 'T', and, as he aged, it became Bob's as well. Rather than idealistically coming down on the side of good (and God), he started trying out the voice of the other side. Maybe Bob didn't lose empathy for the victims, he just gained it for the killers.

Obviously the songs from WGW and GAIBTY were just the tip of the iceberg, and the exploration of the narrator-as-evil has continued, off and on, for 20 years' worth of material. Some of these forays have been more successful than others (Yeah, I still cringe at some of the lines in Thunder on the Mountain), but to me, this lyric represents a more thoughtful, poetic stab at this theme than any other recent songs, maybe even including the much-heralded Ain't Talkin'. (I haven't decided yet)

It will be interesting to see where the rest of this dark album goes lyrically. Maybe ending with a tribute to Lennon will be a kind of salvation -- it's always darkest before the dawn?

Anyway, great posts today. My faith in ER has been restored.


(Edit: smoke's post, made while I was over-analyzing this one, probably nails what I'm saying far more precisely than I do. But I'm kinda verbose, ya know?)

:wink:

ramblings? bob rambles? :D

(in bob mode:
today im too violent
yesterday my stuff was 'gay'.
tomorrows friday
we ll see what it brings? :wink: )


Last edited by goombay on Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:36 GMT, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:30 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 11th, 2011, 05:31 GMT
Posts: 5032
re compassion, Bob Dylan's not George Eliot and compassion's not his default position. Sometimes it creeps in, e.g., parts of Another Side, most notably Chimes of Freedom, but it's never been an emotion common to his art.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:35 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue June 30th, 2009, 05:06 GMT
Posts: 8848
Location: you try to get away...they drag you back
Very Nice post Movin'!

But seriously, weren't we going to start a thread about Dylan and violence in his lyrics??

My thoughts about his motives for this trend...which could fittingly begin at World Gone Wrong or GAIBTY, and may have been seeded in the Dark Eyes with which he viewed the world changing around him in the 80s:

Dylan's earliest social cause songs were written at a time when there was a populace movement towards raising awareness or eradicating the pains and plights of the human condition...there was a sense of clarity and direction in this cause that paired well with noble stories and tales of heroic virtuous decisions being made in the face of defined social evils.

Life is not so simple post 2000 (not that it really was in the past either). People who were behind those movements are reaching retirement age, and many others have jumped off that wagon and have been swallowed by the system several times over, as they stroll along happily at Nordstroms. The youth, the people who carry the optimistic torch of the the future (present readers exempted), are droning along to the tune of Justin Bieber - so very far up the stream of modern consumerism and social isolation, with no leadership or clear direction to follow. Dylan's solution is to look to the past. He looked to the past with the gospel folk songs to provide solace for the acute trauma we faced immediately after September 11th, and he resurrected the past in L&T, and Modern Times, to bring a bandwidth of importance back to the music scene. Now, he is looking to the past and finding fitting analogies between the harsh black & white battles that defined earlier, ancient times, and perhaps making a statement about how desperate times will be not too far into the future...
These are the days of Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones. Evil lurks. Sauron is upon us. Might as well write a song about it and get it out there....smash some realism in the Biebheads faces...


Last edited by Troubadour64 on Thu August 9th, 2012, 17:05 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:40 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Thu September 3rd, 2009, 23:38 GMT
Posts: 1937
Location: Mount Vernon, Washington, USA
goombay wrote:
:wink:

ramblings? bob rambles? :D

(in bob mode:
today im too violent
yesterday my stuff was 'gay'.
tomorrows friday
we ll see what it brings? :wink: )


If I were you, I'd embrace "Goombly ramblings" as a compliment. I'm certainly not as ramblingly creative in my posts. I see much of what you do here as putting little doodles in the margins, something I always tried to do when I was a student taking notes in class. It's a gift, man. Goomble on!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:42 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue June 30th, 2009, 05:06 GMT
Posts: 8848
Location: you try to get away...they drag you back
i try to keep most of my doodles in the bathroom, where they belong, with the door shut. :lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:48 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat April 18th, 2009, 21:24 GMT
Posts: 5942
movin_after_midnight wrote:
goombay wrote:
:wink:

ramblings? bob rambles? :D

(in bob mode:
today im too violent
yesterday my stuff was 'gay'.
tomorrows friday
we ll see what it brings? :wink: )


If I were you, I'd embrace "Goombly ramblings" as a compliment. I'm certainly not as ramblingly creative in my posts. I see much of what you do here as putting little doodles in the margins, something I always tried to do when I was a student taking notes in class. It's a gift, man. Goomble on!



i don't know if the goombay is bob crowd are gonna be happy. :)
tho i can now claim to have invented the 'short brief rambling'. :D


Last edited by goombay on Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:56 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 16:50 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat April 18th, 2009, 21:24 GMT
Posts: 5942
Troubadour64 wrote:
i try to keep most of my doodles in the bathroom, where they belong, with the door shut. :lol: :lol:

:shock:

don't stay in there too long, the neighbors may call the police. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 17:03 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 11th, 2011, 05:31 GMT
Posts: 5032
To me, Love and Theft is very pro-life, death's comin' round and maybe the world is fkced but he's not afraid anymore. It's like this old guy jumping around, happy that's he's alive. So, I don't see it as particularly 'dark' or 'negative.' TOOM is a bit more world-weary but there are some similarities, I remember harmonica albert once saying that he hears it expressing a deep kind of happiness, that Dylan has found an optimism and transformative power in singing the blues, and that those songs have shown him heaven. I listened to it again after a long absence and I think he's right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 17:08 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat October 27th, 2007, 12:44 GMT
Posts: 16794
Location: Workin' as a postal clerk
Troubadour64 wrote:

Life is not so simple post 2000 (not that it really was in the past either). People who were behind those movements are reaching retirement age, and many others have jumped off that wagon and have been swallowed by the system several times over, as they stroll along happily at Nordstroms. The youth, the people who carry the optimistic torch of the the future (present readers exempted), are droning along to the tune of Justin Bieber - so very far up the stream of modern consumerism and social isolation, with no leadership or clear direction to follow.


To be fair, there have always been Biebers, it's nothing new.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 17:13 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue June 30th, 2009, 05:06 GMT
Posts: 8848
Location: you try to get away...they drag you back
yes but people knew the difference between the Monkees and the Beatles. Today, you can find people who don't.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 17:15 GMT 
Titanium Member

Joined: Wed April 27th, 2011, 03:44 GMT
Posts: 7568
Location: the home for teenage dirt
Nice that Movin' referred to the Johnny Cash dichotomy. Compassion has never been Dylan's default position but there's a lot that was 'vulnerable' in Dylan from the very start. That seems lost for the most part now. I don't see 'vulnerable' anymore. Johnny Cash was once as truly badass as any musician of our time. It was a triumph for Cash when he recorded "Hurt" in 2002 at age 70. "Hurt" seemed to completely expose all of his regret, pain, stupidity, dishonesty, self-destruction and the enormous self-knowledge he had finally gained to be able to sing it with such simple conviction. I thought it was the greatest performance of his life. I can't imagine the current Bob Dylan being able to sing "Hurt." Which is too bad because I can imagine a younger Bob Dylan having written it.

I never imagine Johnny Cash as afraid when I hear his version of "Hurt." Cash singing that song is the definition of courage. He spent every moment of his life earning the right to sing it that way. Cash went out in a moment of magnificence, at the apogee of his art. Self-knowledge and "not fucking around" were what allowed that moment to happen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 17:21 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 11th, 2011, 05:31 GMT
Posts: 5032
the_revelator wrote:
Nice that Movin' referred to the Johnny Cash dichotomy. Compassion has never been Dylan's default position but there's a lot that was 'vulnerable' in Dylan from the very start. That seems lost for the most part now. I don't see 'vulnerable' anymore.

Hmm, maybe, but I don't think it's new. It's not in Highway 61, in Blonde on Blonde etc. And I don't see a younger Dylan writing Hurt, either.


Last edited by Giada on Thu August 9th, 2012, 17:23 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 17:22 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 43311
Location: Beneath the Southern X
smoke wrote:
I think he's definately more taken with violent imagery than he used to be, and more explicit sexual references too (sluts and bitches as whorish as ever). I'm not sure what's behind it. Maybe he's trying to keep his imagery fresh, or least fresh to himself, maybe he feels a certain sense of desperation that these lyrics fit for him. I don't think it's evidence of him becoming more personally violent himself, by any means.


Are you familiar with Guthrie's personal letters later in life? Very explicit language. It was brought on by Huntington's, I know, and I'm not saying that the case with Bob, but.... if you listen to the released version of This Land Is Your Land, he's mimicking another aspect brought on by the disease. He might not even be doing it consciously.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 17:23 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 43311
Location: Beneath the Southern X
Giada wrote:
the_revelator wrote:
Nice that Movin' referred to the Johnny Cash dichotomy. Compassion has never been Dylan's default position but there's a lot that was 'vulnerable' in Dylan from the very start. That seems lost for the most part now. I don't see 'vulnerable' anymore.

Hmm, maybe, but I don't think it's new. It's not in Highway 61, in Blonde on Blonde etc.


You don't see / hear vulnerable in Forgetful Heart? You're missing things not seeing him live.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 336 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... 14  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Marconakken


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group