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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 11:54 GMT 
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Bruce11 wrote:
Train-I-Ride wrote:
You're likening kids to adults, likening walking up to kids outside Santa's Grotto and telling them Santa's a lie, to countering adult fans of Bob Dylan who whoop and holler that he sings and puts on a great show when clearly he doesn't. I wouldn't dream of doing the former, but I certainly would the latter (youtube evidence of the current tour would ensure that)


Well, the first thing is that this analogy (thank you, I tend to use the word metaphor in a sort of general, colloquial sense...although the concepts of analogy and metaphor are related in a more nuanced way than you suggest) isn't meant to work from every conceivable angle. In other words, don't read too deeply into the kids v. adults thing.

Why wouldn't you tell the kids that Santa's a lie? Because it would ruin the experience for them? Why on earth would you feel any different just because the people in question are adults?

Remember, most of the kids are just as smart, aware, etc. as the adults. Actually, if you insist that this analogy must work on every level possible, we can think about it like this. We'll say there are two groups of adults. One group is standing in the Santa line with the kids, enjoying the whole experience, while the other group is standing to the side, saying things like “Santa isn't real!” and “Look at his fake beard!” and “Clearly this Santa is much slimmer than he's supposed to be!” The kids are the people who earnestly think Bob's performances are great, the adults standing with them are the “We know this is crap but we don't cares” and the other adults are, naturally, posters like you.

Why is it wrong to compare people who earnestly like Bob's music to innocents, if we take what you, harmonica albert, etc. say as being true? They are people who earnestly enjoy and find great musical merit in performances that are, in your words, “travesties” and “clearly [not great]”. Why shouldn't their attitude toward Bob's performances be thought of as childlike? This is not to say that these people are childlike in general. Perhaps they are, in every other respect, very adult.

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An objective rebuttal to my critique of the 2012 She Belongs To Me ought to include musical examples of such phrasing as I have described, in other songs by other singers that have achieved great success and acclaim, to demonstrate that this represents a positive achievment in the singing arts and not a failure to sustain achievment. Simply saying "no, it's great, and you're an old poopy head" is not a rebuttal, however old and poopy-headed I may be. It's just a demonstration of one's taste. The great difficulty for most people is connecting their personal taste to some rigorous critical apparatus. It's a life-long process of self-questioning, at least for me. Not just "do I like this?" but "why do I like this?" and "how do I like this?" and "what is it that I'm liking?


I find it laughable that you claim to live such an examined aesthetic life when then end result is you spending your time writing this garbage. Talk about missing the point.

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I belong to the community of human beings. I'm not sympathetic to communities that build fortresses around their idols and demand everyone bow or leave.


Oh, brother! The stakes are obviously not that high. People who come here and spend most of their time bashing Bob—and enjoying it, apparently—are not different from children peeing in a sandbox. And to think you see it as this noble battle over idols, fortresses, servitude...I mean, it's laughable.


Bruce11, You're more dishonest and disingenuous that you are either PhD or MFA. You are a mess of shifting whines, half-thought out stuff that you just smudge and rephrase whenever it is challenged. Among the mass of petulant rants you've thrown my way, your accusation that I'm misrepresenting your positions (straw man) is my favorite, given on the one hand, the fact that you can't quite even settle on what your position is, and on the other hand, your nasty and hyper-reductive formulations of what I (and others) have written here.

Despite your shifting and bluster in this thread, and despite your insults and vitriol, at the heart of this whole tirade of yours is nothing but a long cry that when people are critical of something you like, it makes you feel bad.

You can dress that up in whatever pseudo-logical costumes you want, it doesn't change the facts. If you still aren't sure about it, just take a look at the chunk of writing you submitted about Santa and innocent adult-children. It comes complete with a "clarification" about analogies and metaphors and an illustration of how, as in everything you say, you tend to favor using words in ways that don't mean anything specific. Nice. It is easier that way. Lazy and pointless and a convenient way of not being held to anything -- but easier.

We're done here. But don't count on the criticism stopping. You'll have to grow up someday.


Last edited by MMD on Tue July 10th, 2012, 12:22 GMT, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 12:00 GMT 
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No love for me?


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 12:20 GMT 
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BostonAreaBobFan wrote:
No love for me?


I have no problem with you. I just sense that you don't find the way I approach Dylan interesting. I can understand that. You've never insulted me. You've never misrepresented what I said. In fact, quite the contrary. You've been very up front.


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 12:26 GMT 
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BostonAreaBobFan wrote:
No love for me?


Trev would like to offer you five per cent off any loft insulation work you need doing, as a token of my esteem. I don't have a PhD or an MFA, but I do have a forged City & Guilds in Loft Insulation, a narrow fail in my Basic Health And Safety exam, and a food hygiene certificate.


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 12:48 GMT 

Joined: Thu October 13th, 2011, 11:38 GMT
Posts: 111
MMD wrote:
Bruce11, You're more dishonest and disingenuous that you are either PhD or MFA. You are a mess of shifting whines, half-thought out stuff that you just smudge and rephrase whenever it is challenged. Among the mass of petulant rants you've thrown my way, your accusation that I'm misrepresenting your positions (straw man) is my favorite, given on the one hand, the fact that you can't quite even settle on what your position is, and on the other hand, your nasty and hyper-reductive formulations of what I (and others) have written here.


My position has been crystal clear from my first post. The difficulty lies in your trying desperately to turn this into an argument about things that are only tangentially related.

Quote:
Despite your shifting and bluster in this thread, and despite your insults and vitriol, at the heart of this whole tirade of yours is nothing but a long cry that when people are critical of something you like, it makes you feel bad.


Here's another glaring example of exactly how clueless you are as to what I'm really saying in this thread. Has it occurred to you that I in particular might not be terribly bothered by people who derogate Bob? Has it occured to you that perhaps I'm thinking primarily of others? Like my school teacher friend. Many people love Bob for reasons that may or may not have anything to do with the "objective" state of his show these days. He is a person who has added so much meaning to so many lives. He's a civil rights icon, dude. Regardless of his commitment to or true feelings about this cause, which I am not commenting on, he is a civil rights icon. Can you wrap your head around that? I know people whose grandparents were slaves, who, even though they're not a huge fan of his music, feel an emotional debt to Bob for his having played a part. He's also a father, grandfather, uncle, father in law, etc. he has a large family and no doubt many of them love him dearly. It would be absurd to think that some of these people, SOME OF THEM QUITE YOUNG, wouldn't at some point visit a forum like this out of curiosity. Finally, Bob has added a great deal of meaning to the lives of many decent, good people. Many of them naturally end up in a place like this forum. Have you ever thought that critically filleting a septuagenarian (when the criticisms are understood by the critics to be TOTALLY OBVIOUS) might not be absolutely appropriate in this case, all things considered?

But as for me, no, the Bob-derogating doesn't bother me. I cringe when I read it because I think of everyone else who's reading it.

For the record, the derogating gets really bad on this site.

Quote:
You can dress that up in whatever pseudo-logical costumes you want


Translation: I'm uncomfortable with how much sense your arguments make :wink:

Quote:
If you still aren't sure about it, just take a look at the chunk of writing you submitted about Santa and innocent adult-children. It comes complete with a "clarification" about analogies and metaphors and an illustration of how, as in everything you say, you tend to favor using words in ways that don't mean anything specific. Nice. It is easier that way. Lazy and pointless and a convenient way of not being held to anything -- but easier.


I admitted that my choice of the word "metaphor" was obvious. You are the one skullf*cking the English language by insisting that words either conform to your (always rather narrow) definitions or else mean nothing whatsoever. And which one of us, again, is avoiding accountability? :lol:

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We're done here.


Good news for you, for sure. You seem like the type of person who doesn't appreciate their ideas being challenged. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 12:54 GMT 

Joined: Fri July 4th, 2008, 15:47 GMT
Posts: 402
Location: London
Trev wrote:
BostonAreaBobFan wrote:
No love for me?


Trev would like to offer you five per cent off any loft insulation work you need doing, as a token of my esteem. I don't have a PhD or an MFA, but I do have a forged City & Guilds in Loft Insulation, a narrow fail in my Basic Health And Safety exam, and a food hygiene certificate.


May you build a ladder to the loft
and climb on every rung


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 13:02 GMT 
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Location: I should be in Hollywood.
Wowzers - you guys are still going at it?

As recognition, I give you a picture of a woman driving a lion around an enclosed circle.

Image


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 13:22 GMT 
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Bruce11 wrote:
My position has been crystal clear from my first post. The difficulty lies in your trying desperately to turn this into an argument about things that are only tangentially related.

Quote:
Despite your shifting and bluster in this thread, and despite your insults and vitriol, at the heart of this whole tirade of yours is nothing but a long cry that when people are critical of something you like, it makes you feel bad.


Here's another glaring example of exactly how clueless you are as to what I'm really saying in this thread. Has it occurred to you that I in particular might not be terribly bothered by people who derogate Bob? Has it occured to you that perhaps I'm thinking primarily of others? Like my school teacher friend. Many people love Bob for reasons that may or may not have anything to do with the "objective" state of his show these days. He is a person who has added so much meaning to so many lives. He's a civil rights icon, dude. Regardless of his commitment to or true feelings about this cause, which I am not commenting on, he is a civil rights icon. Can you wrap your head around that? I know people whose grandparents were slaves, who, even though they're not a huge fan of his music, feel an emotional debt to Bob for his having played a part. He's also a father, grandfather, uncle, father in law, etc. he has a large family and no doubt many of them love him dearly. It would be absurd to think that some of these people, SOME OF THEM QUITE YOUNG, wouldn't at some point visit a forum like this out of curiosity. Finally, Bob has added a great deal of meaning to the lives of many decent, good people. Many of them naturally end up in a place like this forum. Have you ever thought that critically filleting a septuagenarian (when the criticisms are understood by the critics to be TOTALLY OBVIOUS) might not be absolutely appropriate in this case, all things considered?

But as for me, no, the Bob-derogating doesn't bother me. I cringe when I read it because I think of everyone else who's reading it.

For the record, the derogating gets really bad on this site.


***

Ok. Now I see, it's not that you're being insulting and dishonest because criticism of Dylan's work hurts your feelings, but because it will hurt other people's feelings. And you aren't the child in your ridiculous Santa-children metaphor/anlaogy, but rather Bob's other fans and his family are the immature and frail "adult-children" who have to be protected by your stream of dishonest slurs. So, what you're doing is condescending to them for their good. That is clearer.

You claimed several times that you weren't against criticism of Dylan on this site, but only people who criticized him too much (an amount that the authorities will decide for us). You also claimed that you didn't mean to be the thought police. But what's clear is that you are in fact aspiring to be the infantilizing and demeaning thought police. And it is also now "crystal clear" that you do oppose any criticism of the "icon". Now, before you deny that, reread your last post. So, maybe you can backtrack a ways and apologize for your dishonest claims to the contrary as well as the nasty insults that accompanied them. Train and Harmonica will be waiting.

As for the rest of your smug post: I've just used words the way that people who know what words mean use them. You can look them all up, or spend some time thinking about them. Or you could fire off another condescending and mean-spirited post.

I don't mind having my ideas challenged as long as they are my ideas and they are challenged rather than glibly or petulantly misrepresented.

I'll end this ridiculous non-discussion with this: your efforts to defend and protect your icons and those too weak to handle the big, mean world themselves smacks of an high-school arrogance and a deep disrespect (even loathing) for the people you are so mawkishly claiming to cherish and protect.


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 13:39 GMT 

Joined: Thu October 13th, 2011, 11:38 GMT
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Again, you're not seeing the whole picture.

The Santa thing only works if what albert, Train, etc. say about Bob's performances is true.

If you have a problem with the Santa thing, why not take it up with them?


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 16:16 GMT 

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I do not have a problem with Santa. I know he's not real. :)


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 18:01 GMT 
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What ??? You mean Santa is not real ??? Damn , i knew it ...


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 18:09 GMT 

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I hate to be a party pooper...

but storks are real...they deliver the babies....oh wait...I am not sure on this one?


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 18:13 GMT 
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Here , this will cheer me up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8qE6WQmNus

I hope there's a song about storks on the new album :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 19:47 GMT 

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Tragos114 wrote:
I hope there's a song about storks on the new album :wink:


We Better Stork This Over?


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 20:07 GMT 
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'GrandBob?' sounds like a name given to the town fruitloop.


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 23:08 GMT 
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Zimbiosis wrote:
Tragos114 wrote:
I hope there's a song about storks on the new album :wink:


We Better Stork This Over?

Shelter From The Stork


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 23:20 GMT 
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Ain't Storkin'
Stork-A-Lee
Just Like A Female Stork
Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Storks
I'm sure there are many more.


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 23:26 GMT 
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Stork Inside of Mobile...


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PostPosted: Tue July 10th, 2012, 23:53 GMT 
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Lay Down Your Weary Stork
Love Stork

And Bob's great song about how life changes after having a baby:

When the Stork Comes In


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PostPosted: Wed July 11th, 2012, 00:11 GMT 
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Storkin' Down The Line


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PostPosted: Wed July 11th, 2012, 10:49 GMT 
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If not for stork
something there is about stork
Love minus zero/no stork


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PostPosted: Wed July 11th, 2012, 10:56 GMT 
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Location: The mystic garden, outside the chelsea hotel, near Montague Street...
Gotta Stork Somebody
One Too Many Storks
Positively Stork Street
Storking in the Doorway
Stork In The Long Black Coat
Like A Rolling Stork
Under the Red Stork
Stork on Stork
I Dreamed I Saw St. Stork

Think i'm gonna stop now ....


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PostPosted: Wed July 11th, 2012, 12:26 GMT 
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I'm really liking where this thread has ended up.

Image


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PostPosted: Thu July 12th, 2012, 01:48 GMT 
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Slow Stork Comin'


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PostPosted: Thu July 12th, 2012, 04:27 GMT 
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Location: The mystic garden, outside the chelsea hotel, near Montague Street...
Ballad of A Thin Stork
From A Stork 6


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