Expecting Rain

Go to main page
It is currently Wed April 23rd, 2014, 06:41 GMT

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 930 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 38  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat June 23rd, 2012, 22:32 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon August 31st, 2009, 00:16 GMT
Posts: 1996
charlesdarwin wrote:
MMD wrote:


2. As to your objections to the idea of there being puzzles at all in Dylan's writing, I disagree with your reasons -- that (a) you believe Dylan has sought multiple interpretations in the past, and that (b) you believe Dylan would not put in a puzzle if he could not expect people would find or solve them .



As I have a morbid dread of repeating myself (too often), and as exchanges on the internet frequently descend into barren point scoring exercises I seldom comment on responses to my posts - indeed, I hope that I have expressed my thoughts clearly and concisely, without jargon or prolixity and sometimes with a small degree of elegance the first time and generally leave it at that.

I’m happy to let my original post stand.

You've, as always, expressed yourself very well and clearly. I have no interest in scoring points. I am just trying to think through these things. And your thoughts in that post (as elsewhere) were interesting and well founded. In this case, I thought that pushing the discussion further meant addressing the ideas you put forward. I didn't say you were wrong, but only that I disagreed. I could easily be proven wrong. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat June 23rd, 2012, 22:41 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon August 31st, 2009, 00:16 GMT
Posts: 1996
ifitwastruetennessee wrote:
i thought part of the reason you thought dylan's new project was worthwhile is that it might allow dylan to be taken seriously by the academy, and the reason why he has not been taken seriously is because the scholars have not been able to connect him with the canon, which represent the ideals of the good, the true, and the beautiful. you say those are ideas which come from the artists, but it is the scholars that give the artists credentials within the academy. so in a way they are defining for the culture what is good, beautiful, and truthful. i'm not saying they shouldn't, those people are a lot more well read than me, but isn't it strange somehow- if he starts referencing all of these writers in his work, he will be given the thumbs up. ok, this guy is legit now- it just seems kind of funny. i probably am all mixed up. now that dylan influences can be tracked down, and he uses them to create something new, he can be taken seriously. but hasn't he been doing that all along, absorbing everything in the air, and creating something from it all in his own unique way. anyway, i'm just talking aloud and find this discussion really interesting


I agree that it is funny or seemingly paradoxical -- the relationship between artists/ thinkers and the academics. But I think that it's real. And yes, Dylan has been doing something like this for a long time. It's just that he's seemingly doing it in a different way. Of course, he might have been doing it in exactly this way and no one has tracked it down. As for being given the thumbs up, that will depend on his use of the canon as well as his really making something of it (in a way that academy can make sense of has "rigorous" or "serious"). It's possible, that instead, like Pollack or Duchamp or Matisse or Pynchon or Nietzsche or Plato, etc..., Dylan could convince people that he has invented new rules for defining or representing the True, the Good and the Beautiful (or rejecting them). That's what I meant about artists leading the way. Why not Dylan?

You don't sound even a little mixed up to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 01:30 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue August 28th, 2007, 07:16 GMT
Posts: 20716
Location: any where a music tragic might be found
I have come full circle on this topic after reading the posts and doing my own thinking.
All we really have is yet another theory which Scott Warmuth can suggest and follow up by selective quotes . The problem is this has been going on for years with many people including a lot of us either having our own ideas or following some one else. I think the matter is that Dylan has written and covered so many songs , gone in so many directions, told us so many things and obviously been infuenced by so many things.
It can be hard for us to accept that there is not a bigger agenda at play here. When the fact may well be that Bob is so brilliant that he has done more than many musicans could pack into their life times.
The thing is as humans we like answers we want to know the why's and wherefores of every thing.
We are disturbed by things we do not fully understand and consumed by a need to know.
Just accept Bob Dylan as he come sinto your life with his music and writings. Be happy with what you think the songs mean and what they say to you. And if you find references to other things work them out for yourself.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 05:43 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon August 31st, 2009, 00:16 GMT
Posts: 1996
oldmanemu wrote:
Be happy with what you think the songs mean and what they say to you. And if you find references to other things work them out for yourself.


I think that is the best one could hope for, and I don't think, speaking for myself, that I've set out to do more than that in anything I've posted here.

Of course, there are more and less thorough ways of "working them out". And often times, doing so as a community has the potential to bring possibilities to the fore that one might never imagine on one's own...

Some things are worth the effort, others not.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 10:35 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 10th, 2012, 19:36 GMT
Posts: 336
Location: somewhere, over the Rainbow
Hi MMD,
I think that, of course, in the book "chronicle" there is much more than an autobiography...
Each person can found something for himself... It is the same thing for his songs. I think that you can't explain a poet, poetry, who can just feel it. I thank god to feel what i feel when i listen to Bob's songs. That's all. When i feel the wind i don't care to know if the pressure of the atmosphere is high or down.
That said i always appreciate very much your work and your posts !!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 11:31 GMT 

Joined: Wed February 16th, 2005, 21:50 GMT
Posts: 2577
Location: New Hampshire
JackaRoe61 wrote:
Hi MMD,
I think that, of course, in the book "chronicle" there is much more than an autobiography...
Each person can found something for himself... It is the same thing for his songs. I think that you can't explain a poet, poetry, who can just feel it. I thank god to feel what i feel when i listen to Bob's songs. That's all. When i feel the wind i don't care to know if the pressure of the atmosphere is high or down.
That said i always appreciate very much your work and your posts !!!


Good points, and that's what I've been thinking the last couple of days. One cannot cast aside the basic aesthetic experience of just listening to Bob Dylan. I remember a thread a while back debating the "sound" of Bob Dylan versus the enjoyment of his lyrics - or the what I call the "content" crowd. I was shocked at how many people just preferred the "sound" - the audio experience. But it's very valid - Bob is(or was, depending on your view) a great and totally unique singer. One "expert" on some other site once wrote that Bob Dylan is probably the greatest alto tenor that ever lived. Is he an alto tenor??


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 11:35 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24696
Location: around, waiting for you
I don't think any component should be cast aside when it comes to Bob.
Discussing and dissecting lyrics in every imaginable way doesn't mean we cannot stop, any time, any day, listen and just follow to whatever emotio-spiritual level it takes us to.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 11:53 GMT 

Joined: Wed February 16th, 2005, 21:50 GMT
Posts: 2577
Location: New Hampshire
Johanna Parker wrote:
I don't think any component should be cast aside when it comes to Bob.
Discussing and dissecting lyrics in every imaginable way doesn't mean we cannot stop, any time, any day, listen and just follow to whatever emotio-spiritual level it takes us to.


Thank you - that's kind of what I was trying to say. And it gets to the core of the magic surrounding this earthly God - the multifacetedness of his genius!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 12:03 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24696
Location: around, waiting for you
Cheers, chrome. :)
I'm restraining myself from getting involved in the core discussion of this thread, and I wouldn't want to raise him to the level of deity, but there's many levels to all things Bob. Have you (any of you on this thread) read Hard Rain / Slow Train?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 12:46 GMT 

Joined: Wed February 16th, 2005, 21:50 GMT
Posts: 2577
Location: New Hampshire
Another point in this superb thread. MMD suggested that should these "codes" be verified or revealed, it would take his writing to an actually higher and more serious literary level he had not previously reached, and would more solidly qualify him for a Nobel, etc.

I understand the thinking in this regard, but I totally disagree with the conclusion. Yes, these revelations would be another astounding side to this artist(of so many sides). However, his "known" body of work stands at the highest pinnacle of literature right now. This is because when one writes things which improve the human condition - advocating human rights, advocating the end of war, etc. etc., and these words resonate with people AROUND THE WORLD, there simply can be no greater literary achievement. And it is for these very reasons that he has won awards around the world - most recently the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award an American can receive. I would even go so far as to say some of his songs, like "Blowin' in the Wind", have actually saved lives be cause they have changed the way people think. And these types of achievements, esoteric in nature, are totally intangible and immeasurable, but ARE the most important.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:04 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 10th, 2012, 19:36 GMT
Posts: 336
Location: somewhere, over the Rainbow
chrome horse wrote:
Another point in this superb thread. MMD suggested that should these "codes" be verified or revealed, it would take his writing to an actually higher and more serious literary level he had not previously reached, and would more solidly qualify him for a Nobel, etc.

I understand the thinking in this regard, but I totally disagree with the conclusion. Yes, these revelations would be another astounding side to this artist (of so many sides). However, his "known" body of work stands at the highest pinnacle of literature right now. This is because when one writes things which improve the human condition - advocating human rights, advocating the end of war, etc. etc., and these words resonate with people AROUND THE WORLD, there simply can be no greater literary achievement. And it is for these very reasons that he has won awards around the world - most recently the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award an American can receive. I would even go so far as to say some of his songs, like "Blowin' in the Wind", have actually saved lives be cause they have changed the way people think. And these types of achievements, esoteric in nature, are totally intangible and immeasurable, but ARE the most important.


I agree with you Chrome !


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:07 GMT 

Joined: Sat September 17th, 2011, 01:08 GMT
Posts: 668
thanks for your comment mmd and all. has a musician ever been accepted into the academy- how does all of that work. is it more just like, papers on various things about dylan will be accepted in various journals and stuff, and people writing them won't be thought of as silly by a lot of other professors, and it won't be a big career risk for them to admit they think dylan is a great artist. do you think that would make a difference to dylan. is it a correct assumption to think he is doing this latest writing as a way to be taken seriously by people that might have been to afraid to stick their necks out and recognize his work in the first place. i mean how long has this guy been at it. he has written how many amazing songs, done films, paintings, composed a book... and still he is just a rock and roll guy in their eyes-whatever that means. that might be ok with him.

i think that by pointing to the things he likes with his radio show, he is doing his own curating, saying this is his canon for music . it's interesting in his radio show though, and even in his latest book, he doesn't say here is what this is all about and this is why you should like it. i really like hearing peoples interpretations of songs, it is usually pretty interesting to me, but i don't think it would be proper to call any of them definitive "answers" as far as meaning. is that what the professors sometimes try to do, and is that a problem for an artist. or is it just the critics that are a pain. maybe i shouldn't write about this stuff- sounds like it's boring the pants off some. :)


Last edited by ifitwastruetennessee on Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:17 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:14 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat April 2nd, 2011, 18:27 GMT
Posts: 6419
Location: In Scarlet Town, where I was born. . .
ifitwastruetennessee wrote:
thanks for your comment mmd and all. has a musician ever been accepted into the academy- how does all of that work. is it more just like, papers on various things about dylan will be accepted in various journals and stuff, and people writing them won't be thought of as silly by a lot of other professors, and it won't be a big career risk for them to admit they think dylan is a great artist. do you think that would make a difference to dylan. is it a correct assumption to think he is doing this latest writing as a way to be taken seriously by people that might have been to afraid to stick their necks out and recognize his work in the first place. i mean how long has this guy been at it. he has written how many amazing songs, done films, paintings, composed a book... and still he is just a rock and roll guy in their eyes. that might be ok with him.

i think that by pointing to the things he likes with his radio show, he is doing his own curating, saying this his canon for music . it's interesting in his radio show though, and even in his latest book, he doesn't say here is what this is all about and this is why you should like it. i really like hearing people interpretations of songs, it is usually pretty interesting to me, but i don't think it would be proper to call any of them definitive "answers" as far as meaning. is that what the professors sometimes try to do, and is that a problem for an artist. or is it just the critics that are a pain. again, i feel maybe i shouldn't write about this stuff- sounds like it's boring the pants off some. maybe it is just better kept to myself


Please don't keep it to yourself, tennessee - I enjoy reading every post and point of view on this thread, and your posts DO make sense - you present your thoughts well, and I can understand what you're saying. It's great to hear everyone responding to this idea. Please continue to express your viewpoints and thoughts - I know I'm not the only one who enjoys them!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:17 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24696
Location: around, waiting for you
chrome horse wrote:
Another point in this superb thread. MMD suggested that should these "codes" be verified or revealed, it would take his writing to an actually higher and more serious literary level he had not previously reached, and would more solidly qualify him for a Nobel, etc.


Has it been established that he changed his way of writing at a certain point to build in decodeable sub-levels? I'm asking not to argue but for better understanding - I've asked this before. He has referenced source material all the way back to Song To Woody, and only those aware of the source would have noticed. Where does the difference between "previous" and "current" come in?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:27 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sat February 5th, 2011, 18:49 GMT
Posts: 2843
Johanna Parker wrote:
chrome horse wrote:
Another point in this superb thread. MMD suggested that should these "codes" be verified or revealed, it would take his writing to an actually higher and more serious literary level he had not previously reached, and would more solidly qualify him for a Nobel, etc.


Has it been established that he changed his way of writing at a certain point to build in decodeable sub-levels? I'm asking not to argue but for better understanding - I've asked this before. He has referenced source material all the way back to Song To Woody, and only those aware of the source would have noticed. Where does the difference between "previous" and "current" come in?


2001. He needed something different to continue composing after unburdening himself of the bitterness of 80's/90's on TooM. Prior to 2001 I scarcely need sources to follow the meaning and Dylan's borrowing tended to be either a) subtle, or b) the very early wholesale repurposing of melodies. It won't shock me to be told there's some numerology underneath the recent ModBob stuff but it won't make it interesting, either. If I want that kind of stuff there's hundreds of clever people trying to make a living doing the quasi-postmodern thing. Hey, plenty of people love crossword puzzles.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:31 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24696
Location: around, waiting for you
^^
What about Empire Burlesque and, to a lesser extend probably, Knocked Out Loaded, containing all this movie dialogue, sometimes constructing full songs of little else?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:36 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue August 28th, 2007, 07:16 GMT
Posts: 20716
Location: any where a music tragic might be found
I will say it now . I have come to the conclusion there is no code !


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:37 GMT 

Joined: Sat September 17th, 2011, 01:08 GMT
Posts: 668
thanks doomed, i hope it didn't seem like i was fishing for a complement, but you know, a person can feel pretty silly sometimes writing stuff on a message board- anyway that would be another topic i guess:)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 13:56 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sat February 5th, 2011, 18:49 GMT
Posts: 2843
chrome horse wrote:
Another point in this superb thread. MMD suggested that should these "codes" be verified or revealed, it would take his writing to an actually higher and more serious literary level he had not previously reached, and would more solidly qualify him for a Nobel, etc.

I understand the thinking in this regard, but I totally disagree with the conclusion. Yes, these revelations would be another astounding side to this artist(of so many sides). However, his "known" body of work stands at the highest pinnacle of literature right now. This is because when one writes things which improve the human condition - advocating human rights, advocating the end of war, etc. etc., and these words resonate with people AROUND THE WORLD, there simply can be no greater literary achievement. And it is for these very reasons that he has won awards around the world - most recently the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award an American can receive. I would even go so far as to say some of his songs, like "Blowin' in the Wind", have actually saved lives be cause they have changed the way people think. And these types of achievements, esoteric in nature, are totally intangible and immeasurable, but ARE the most important.


Just enjoy the songs if you enjoy the songs because time will likely bury them, possibly very soon. It's just the rhythm of the generations: the heavily awarded artists of one era are rejected by some ensuing era, or people can no longer hear. Ellington's a great example of this; despite his towering success and many awards he's never heard these days. I predict the ModBob stuff will be mostly ignored by future musicologists precisely because the stuff is esoteric at best.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 14:01 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Fri December 9th, 2011, 00:25 GMT
Posts: 4254
Johanna Parker wrote:
^^
What about Empire Burlesque and, to a lesser extend probably, Knocked Out Loaded, containing all this movie dialogue, sometimes constructing full songs of little else?


Yes, those songs are often overlooked, but I think they are quite effective minor collages. Songs such as Maybe Someday or Seeing The Real You At Last are a lot more coherent to Trev than some of the ModBob stuff. He uses nursery rhymes extensively throughout Under The Red Sky, and there are plenty of borrowings on Time Out Of Mind. The use of movie dialogue (I think the majority, and perhaps vast majority, from Bogart films) on Empire and Loaded tends not to inspire one to presume that there must be a hidden code in that work, and that we are supposed to re evaluate every line the context of the movie it originally featured in in order to appreciate those songs.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 14:12 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 24696
Location: around, waiting for you
Why not?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 14:12 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed September 14th, 2011, 13:25 GMT
Posts: 9288
Location: Wherever I am welcome
Very good thoughts ifitwastruetennessee.

I can't imagine that he has taken on this style of writing to be taken seriously by academics, because that seems like an inauthentic reason to create anything. He has shown time and time again that he doesn't concern himself with critics.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 14:19 GMT 

Joined: Wed February 16th, 2005, 21:50 GMT
Posts: 2577
Location: New Hampshire
Johanna Parker wrote:
Has it been established that he changed his way of writing at a certain point to build in decodeable sub-levels? I'm asking not to argue but for better understanding - I've asked this before. He has referenced source material all the way back to Song To Woody, and only those aware of the source would have noticed. Where does the difference between "previous" and "current" come in?


Good question, but I have no idea. We know he has been borrowing tunes(as most do in the folk tradition) from day one. He talks about that in Chronicles - how he put his words to different tunes.

And also, much has been written about the lifted lines in Chronicles, but I'm more astounded by his own writing in the book. I'll expand on that later.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 14:22 GMT 

Joined: Wed February 16th, 2005, 21:50 GMT
Posts: 2577
Location: New Hampshire
JackaRoe61 wrote:
chrome horse wrote:
Another point in this superb thread. MMD suggested that should these "codes" be verified or revealed, it would take his writing to an actually higher and more serious literary level he had not previously reached, and would more solidly qualify him for a Nobel, etc.

I understand the thinking in this regard, but I totally disagree with the conclusion. Yes, these revelations would be another astounding side to this artist (of so many sides). However, his "known" body of work stands at the highest pinnacle of literature right now. This is because when one writes things which improve the human condition - advocating human rights, advocating the end of war, etc. etc., and these words resonate with people AROUND THE WORLD, there simply can be no greater literary achievement. And it is for these very reasons that he has won awards around the world - most recently the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award an American can receive. I would even go so far as to say some of his songs, like "Blowin' in the Wind", have actually saved lives be cause they have changed the way people think. And these types of achievements, esoteric in nature, are totally intangible and immeasurable, but ARE the most important.


I agree with you Chrome !


Thanks Jack! And I like the colored hi-lights for emphasis - you have turbo charged my words - and for free!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun June 24th, 2012, 18:00 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Fri December 9th, 2011, 00:25 GMT
Posts: 4254
Trev wrote:
Yes, those songs are often overlooked, but I think they are quite effective minor collages. Songs such as Maybe Someday or Seeing The Real You At Last are a lot more coherent to Trev than some of the ModBob stuff. He uses nursery rhymes extensively throughout Under The Red Sky, and there are plenty of borrowings on Time Out Of Mind. The use of movie dialogue (I think the majority, and perhaps vast majority, from Bogart films) on Empire and Loaded tends not to inspire one to presume that there must be a hidden code in that work, and that we are supposed to re evaluate every line the context of the movie it originally featured in in order to appreciate those songs.

Johanna Parker wrote:
Why not?


Well, there hasn't been any noticeable attempt so far that I'm aware of ... but feel free to try it! I think because it seems to be mainly from one source (Bogart films) and the songs feel as if they are the thoughts of a Bogart-esque narrator, and are pretty coherent, there's a sense that the songs aren't particularly cryptic. The fact that some of Dylan's later borrowings feel so out of place (the Virgil quotes on "Love & Theft") may explain some of the impetus to find an underlying code to make the songs cohere. In fact, when Dylan was using the movie dialogue he created seamless songs out of his borrowings, they just weren't major songs.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 930 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 38  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group