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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 12:23 GMT 

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AutodesSchreckens wrote:
Merlin wrote:
Well, I agree that there is something to be said for the possibility to buy a higher priced ticket for a better seat. And I do think it is worth a lot of money for a front row seat guaranteed. Anyway, that said, my eyebrows are still raised at the 350 CHF price. Personally Ive only seen such pricelevels in certain VIP-packages.


Well, as I said, I do not welcome inflated prices, but we have to face the facts: In the 90s, Dylan's asking price was as low as 35,000 Dollar, these days it's 300,000. He can't make that kind of money in the US, thus he looks elsewhere. Even in Europe he can't that kind of money all the time for regular headline shows, so he turns to co-headlining tours and festival shows where money is no problem. Clearly he's not playing for much less on any of the dates announced so far. I would believe that there's State or Sponsor money involved in Italy.

So if you want to see an artist from the 300,000 rage at a 1,800 capacity venue - what do you expect? Last time Bob played Montreux was before "love And Theft" and the No 1 albums that followed, before the post 9/11 economy crash, and it was 10 years agao, so a (much) higher price is almost unavoidable.

Also, Dylan's 70 now. Many people might think of every new tour as their last chance to see him, which makes it very easy to charge more. We should not be angry at certain shows being expensive, we should rtaher be happy that not ALL of them are in that price range (yet).


There is probably a lot of truth in what you say. Im glad that he sometimes decides to play club sized gigs. One thing that makes this Montreux concert stand out though must be the pricedifference between frontrow seats and standing tickets?


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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 14:17 GMT 

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Johanna Parker wrote:
Post-"Love And Theft" small capacity venues with prices far from three figure sums include Hamburg Docks '03 (twice), Glasgow Barrowlands '04, and Milano Alcatraz last summer, just off the top of my head. Mind you, they're not layed out in cherry wood....


All of these came as package deals, as the promoters of the shows also put on other shows by Dylan in their countries during those tours/years. Montreux Jazz has to recoup all their expensises on that one night. I'm sure Dylan plays for less sometimes - if he chooses to. Clearly during the summer tour, he won't.


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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 14:27 GMT 
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You must have some insight into his financial dealings.....

Anyway, "put 'em in those seats!"
http://www.dylanvideo.com/apps/videos/videos/show/11506874-i-forgot-more-than-you-ll-ever-know-east-rutherford-1986-


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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 14:44 GMT 
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OK, you got it. I won't be at the Montreux Jazz Festival.


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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 15:15 GMT 

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Johanna Parker wrote:
You must have some insight into his financial dealings.....

Anyway, "put 'em in those seats!"
http://www.dylanvideo.com/apps/videos/videos/show/11506874-i-forgot-more-than-you-ll-ever-know-east-rutherford-1986-


Not in particular (as far as Dylan is concerned). However, a few years back it has been reported that Dylan's asking fee is 250,000 Euros, in another post on here recently it was claimed it is 300,000 Dollar. So that's about the figure we're looking at.

As far as I know, shows are usually set up as a 50/50 deal between artist and promoter. Meaning: If half the tickets are sold, the promoters breaks even, if they sell more, he is able to pay the artist's guarantee and starts to make a profit. I'd say 75% of the Dylan shows in recent times work by that rule of thumb, meaning, the aim at any show is to make 500,000 to 600,000 Euros. (The high prices of the MK shows reflect MK's added salary.)

Clearly at a show like Alcatrazz that wasn't possible, and thus there must have been a reduced fee, a sponsor of some sort or a package deal with the Assago show later in the year in place.

In this light it also makes sense that the Sursee promoters claimed to have lost money on the Dylan show last year. There weren't more than around 5,000 paying folks there at around 60 Euro a throw, and if Dylan got 250,000 Euro or more, they hardly could pay for staff, site, stage etc.

This is why I'm kind of defending Claude Nobs at Montreux here. Sure, 350 CHF sounds ridiculous, but with the "cheaper" categories as well, I don't think there's more money than 350,000 to 375,000 Euro coming in. If Dylan takes home at least 250,000 of that, and Montreux Jazz has to pay for the venue, staff, promotion etc., they make less of a profit than they "should" (from a strictly business point of view. But it is business for sure!)

Maybe I'm wrong about some of the details here, but I know for certain that I'm not completely wrong. There's a few other factors - Spanish shows are said to be sponsored with state money, Germany adds 25% "forgein artist tax" etc - but as a rule of thumb it works.

With that in mind, all you need is a pocket calculator, divide 500,000 by the venue capacity and you have the expected ticket price, which in the Montreux case is petty much exactly what they are charging. (For example, this method also worked well for the oh-so-expensive Bratislava small venue show in 2010). This would also explain why Las Vegas and other Casino shows shows are usually more expensive - they simply aim at a higher profit than regular "music" venues/promoters.

Why am I saying all this? Well, I just want you guys to see that it's not rocket science, ticket prices are the way they are for a reason and to no small extend that reason is the fact that Dylan charges BIG bucks. And if you think he's worth every penny, you have no reason to complain. If you think he's not, stick to the boots. It's very simple really.


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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 15:23 GMT 
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Where's that guy who said all music should be free?

Sure, if I had millions, I'd spend millions on Bob tickets, travel, original artwork, etc.... sure, he can charge whatever people are willing to give him, whether he needs it or not. Maybe he'll dump the approximately 30 years old sweatpants sometime (see front page photo).


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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 15:50 GMT 

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a couple of things on the economics of Montreux:

1) they make money from ancillary business such as drinks and food within the festival building and in the surrounding grounds

2) the Festival gets an annual subsidy of CHF 1 million from the City of Montreux, which also provides the festival building.

The pricing policy can perhaps be seen as part of a general strategy to attract "premium" tourists. Likewise the entire festival lineup, which is skewed to older artists and becomes less musically adventurous every year-


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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 15:51 GMT 
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For fun, one could look at album sales and ticket prices side by side. As album sales go down over time, ticket prices go up. When people download music, it eventually cuts revenue for the artist who then raises ticket prices. Also, (at least in America) ticket scalping is now legal. Many bands now work directly with the scalpers to ensure that they get top dollar for whatever tickets are sold, not face value.

If touring revenue goes down, game over.


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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 16:04 GMT 
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I'm at work so I'm being a bit lazy here. Does anyone know what the this price is compared to the american dollar?

Just curious....


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PostPosted: Wed April 18th, 2012, 16:06 GMT 

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The most expensive 350 CHF category equals 382 US$, according to Oanda.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 09:43 GMT 

Joined: Sun December 5th, 2004, 11:04 GMT
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AutodesSchreckens wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
You must have some insight into his financial dealings.....

Anyway, "put 'em in those seats!"
http://www.dylanvideo.com/apps/videos/videos/show/11506874-i-forgot-more-than-you-ll-ever-know-east-rutherford-1986-


Not in particular (as far as Dylan is concerned). However, a few years back it has been reported that Dylan's asking fee is 250,000 Euros, in another post on here recently it was claimed it is 300,000 Dollar. So that's about the figure we're looking at.

As far as I know, shows are usually set up as a 50/50 deal between artist and promoter. Meaning: If half the tickets are sold, the promoters breaks even, if they sell more, he is able to pay the artist's guarantee and starts to make a profit. I'd say 75% of the Dylan shows in recent times work by that rule of thumb, meaning, the aim at any show is to make 500,000 to 600,000 Euros. (The high prices of the MK shows reflect MK's added salary.)

Clearly at a show like Alcatrazz that wasn't possible, and thus there must have been a reduced fee, a sponsor of some sort or a package deal with the Assago show later in the year in place.

In this light it also makes sense that the Sursee promoters claimed to have lost money on the Dylan show last year. There weren't more than around 5,000 paying folks there at around 60 Euro a throw, and if Dylan got 250,000 Euro or more, they hardly could pay for staff, site, stage etc.

This is why I'm kind of defending Claude Nobs at Montreux here. Sure, 350 CHF sounds ridiculous, but with the "cheaper" categories as well, I don't think there's more money than 350,000 to 375,000 Euro coming in. If Dylan takes home at least 250,000 of that, and Montreux Jazz has to pay for the venue, staff, promotion etc., they make less of a profit than they "should" (from a strictly business point of view. But it is business for sure!)

Maybe I'm wrong about some of the details here, but I know for certain that I'm not completely wrong. There's a few other factors - Spanish shows are said to be sponsored with state money, Germany adds 25% "forgein artist tax" etc - but as a rule of thumb it works.

With that in mind, all you need is a pocket calculator, divide 500,000 by the venue capacity and you have the expected ticket price, which in the Montreux case is petty much exactly what they are charging. (For example, this method also worked well for the oh-so-expensive Bratislava small venue show in 2010). This would also explain why Las Vegas and other Casino shows shows are usually more expensive - they simply aim at a higher profit than regular "music" venues/promoters.

Why am I saying all this? Well, I just want you guys to see that it's not rocket science, ticket prices are the way they are for a reason and to no small extend that reason is the fact that Dylan charges BIG bucks. And if you think he's worth every penny, you have no reason to complain. If you think he's not, stick to the boots. It's very simple really.


Dear Auto des Schrekens,

I understand your business point of view. But I also in this case have a very easy solution (that wasn't adopted) to make this festival (somewhat) accessible, or should I say reasonable: There are seats on the balcony. Let THOSE people who want to sit down at a blues/rockabilly concert pay the 320-350.-, lets put general admission on the floor, thus admit twice as much people (100-150.- per ticket, i let you choose of course :-)). It's as EASY as that. It'a not a theater play, not a classical concert. Thus I have trouble understanding that people actually want to sit down to assist these kind of concerts. Especially since Dylan's style has changed compared to the early 60s, I don't think he makes the type of music that you want to sit down to during a concert (at home yes, of course!). I respect that there are people with physical dissabilities, some just have a broom up their butt and are just to afraid to move their feet a little, let everybody pay the right ticket price (one price for people who are ok to stand up on general admission floor, one price for invalid people and one price for the RICH who want to sit down on a balcony during a rock concert!!). Can't believe this last line I wrote... Dylan is 72 and NEVER sits down during his concerts, come on it's only 1h30 half long, the public (if you're in good health) can stand up, whatta hell!

That said, I wouldn't be surprised that Dylan ASKED for people sitting down in Montreux, I think he kinda got into a verbal fight with a lady in 2001 last time he was there (check the reviews of that concert on boblinks), and maybe has a bad memory of that concert. I can tell you I was in front row and he looked really PISSED OFF during this concert. People who didn't notice that have to be blind!

In either case, as I already said i don't care to know If Dylan wants us to be seated in montreux or if Nobs took the very stupid decision of seating charts on the floor, I WON'T GO and invite you all to come with me in France, have a good time there and pay a normal price for a great concert! As somebody said on this forum, Nob's strategy is all about attracting RICH people to montreux, and use pop/rock music in order to do that, and that just is NOT right.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 09:58 GMT 
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You invite me to France? That's very kind of you. :mrgreen:

I'm all against skipping every other concert on a tour as short as this one, but Montreux is really heavy. I'm not at all sure what to do.
I've heard from several people about the last Montreux gig and that it wasn't very good, but honestly, I don't think Bob recalls that 1000 shows later.

PS: Last time I checked, Bob was 70. He'll be 71 next month. Don't make him older than he is. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 10:00 GMT 
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razorball wrote:
Usually I'm not an activist and I didn't even know I had that in me. But 350.- (about 300 euros) is waaaaaaaaay to expensive to see Bob at Montreux, even though I adore him. I have seen "big production" concerts and never paid so much to go to one single concert. Living in Switzerland it makes me sad not to go. I'm lucky enough to have that amount of money in my bank, but come on, COME ON::: It's a shame that Claude Nobs (Montreux jazz festival director in chief) strategy is to attract such big stars as Bob with high salaries. How sad. I must be one of Bob's biggest fans here in Switzerland and I WON'T even go! Let the RICH bank people go and hear them mumble about Bob's VOICE and the high price after the show, they won't get it!... Let also the LOOKING FOR A FREE TICKET girl go :lol:
And yes, may NOBS go to hell for this! :evil:
The first time I saw him in Montreux was in 2001. He came in a VERY bad mood and slightly drunk. It was also my 1st Bob concert and out of the 15 times I saw him it was the worst I saw. The hardcore fans found it beautiful. Guess I'm not harcore enough. Hope he plays Dont think twice as a second song, at least I wont be there. YURK!
Also hope that EVEN PEOPLE WHO DO HAVE THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY in their bank won't go, as a sign of PROTEST to such high prices. 11 years ago I paid more than 3 times less to see Bob in Montreux and was front row. IT is UNACCEPTABLE that in 2012, in the middle of a financial crisis, we would pay more than 3 times more.
For those of you that want to go and see him, I strongly suggest you buy an easyjet ticket to France or Germany, enjoy your stay in another country and go and see him there. Even then you will save money.


300 euros :(
I paid 45 to see him 2 years ago...


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 11:58 GMT 
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AutodesSchreckens wrote:
The most expensive 350 CHF category equals 382 US$, according to Oanda.


Thanks - yikes!


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 12:13 GMT 
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Well, he will just have to go without fans that day.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 13:18 GMT 

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razorball wrote:
I understand your business point of view.


So why did you write this long answer? All of your suggestions result in less money coming in on the night and, well, that's just not happening.
It IS a business and very little else. To think otherwise is - sorry! - very naive.

And by the way, out of the 150 shows I've seen, Montreux 2001 probably ranks among my top 10 both a far as the general experience and the show and setlist - how could anyone not like a setlist like that? - is concerned. Just sayin'.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 14:27 GMT 

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AutodesSchreckens wrote:
razorball wrote:
I understand your business point of view.


So why did you write this long answer? All of your suggestions result in less money coming in on the night and, well, that's just not happening.
It IS a business and very little else. To think otherwise is - sorry! - very naive.

And by the way, out of the 150 shows I've seen, Montreux 2001 probably ranks among my top 10 both a far as the general experience and the show and setlist - how could anyone not like a setlist like that? - is concerned. Just sayin'.



Well because a long answer from your part requires a long (what you call "naive") response from mine.

You disappoint me. I thought you were good in maths! If you charge 150.- for general admission on the WHOLE floor, you also have about twice as much room for people there (NO ANNOYING SEATS TAKING SPACE), so about twice as much people paying for (lower priced) tickets. Which would make it even with a High Class People Soirée. He wouldn't make less money than your beloved night in Montreux in 2001, considering that we would still charge 350.- on the balcony, he would surely make even more!

I like business, but if you can mix business with the fact of pleasing a certain crowd of people (I'm talking about the average Bob Dylan listener), then that's Business with a golden capital B. Again, my solution wouldn't bring less money in Bob's pockets.

As for Montreux in 2001, it's a matter of taste and not the right place to discuss this. But yes, the setlist was good.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 14:42 GMT 
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^^^^
You can't sell as much champagne and VIP packages and other luxus items to the average fan.
Plus, they may be unruly and run for good spots in front of the stage and you need lots of security people to keep them in check.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 16:16 GMT 

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Also, if you charge outlandish face prices, you can provide discounts to sponsors taking 50-seat packages and still get top dollar for them.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 16:20 GMT 
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You could pay 500 CHF and go to the bar during the show, come back and annoy the people in your row and behind you, and then the next person in your row gets up to go to the VIP bathroom, etc....
http://www.montreuxjazzfestival.com/201 ... ndividuals


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 16:28 GMT 

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Johanna Parker wrote:
^^^^
You can't sell as much champagne and VIP packages and other luxus items to the average fan.
Plus, they may be unruly and run for good spots in front of the stage and you need lots of security people to keep them in check.


Miss Parker, you may be right. Although if you fill the room with twice as much people, there will be twice as much beer sold, more people in hotels (less luxury ones, maybe) etc etc for that event. That's exactly why I'm choosing not to go. It's the CONCEPT of attracting a certain CLASS of people (that read Time magazine hehe :-)) for a rock'n'roll show. NOPE not for me. I already wear a tie and a nice suit everyday at my job, I wanna get rid of it when it comes the time to see a concert (exept maybe classical ones).
Unbelievable to me that some people on this forum support Nob's strategy.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 16:31 GMT 

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Not Your Personal Army mr. Razorball.

This is rock and roll, not a bloody rainbow gathering.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 16:34 GMT 
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Personally, I just want to go and see concerts, that's the way I spend my holidays, and it's inconvenient to leave certain ones out.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 16:42 GMT 

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jman wrote:
Not Your Personal Army mr. Razorball.

This is rock and roll, not a bloody rainbow gathering.


Sorry you're completely out of topic here. A rainbow gathering is free of charge. Usually concerts aren't. And I never said they should be free.


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PostPosted: Thu April 19th, 2012, 16:44 GMT 

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razorball wrote:
jman wrote:
Not Your Personal Army mr. Razorball.

This is rock and roll, not a bloody rainbow gathering.


Sorry you're completely out of topic here. A rainbow gathering is free of charge. Usually concerts aren't. And I never said they should be free.

you are very very wrong. this is a business. the business of rock and roll. demand and supply nothing more nothing less.
I get the distinct impression that you have an axe to grind regarding this promoter. good luck with your boycott.


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