Expecting Rain

Go to main page
It is currently Sat July 26th, 2014, 05:05 GMT

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue February 28th, 2012, 21:55 GMT 

Joined: Tue February 28th, 2012, 21:15 GMT
Posts: 14
Hello,

I'm doing some research on Dylan based specifically on the two Minnesota tapes (aka Minneapolis tapes), the party tape and the hotel tape. I'm kind of struggling though to gather coherent information as to:
- where both of these tapes were recorded
- who recorded them
- who was there.

For the first tape it seems fairly clear that it was at Bonnie Beecher's. Howard Sounes says that Bonnie had used her roommate's Webcor tape recorder in late 1960 to record Bob, but hadn't she then moved by May 61? So did she have another tape recorder? Or did Glover have one?

About the second tape (December 61): was it at Bonnie's or Dave Whitaker's? And, again, who recorded them? A few sources seem to say the second tape was done at Whitaker's, so who brought the recorder, Bonnie or Glover? I also read somewhere that an explanation for the tape's nickname was that Bob, who was used to sleeping on Bonnie's sofa, had called her apartment the 'Beecher hotel' or 'Minneapolis hotel', which feels like too original an idea to be a lie - but obviously, if the tape was done at the Whitaker then we're back to square one...

Anyone got some solid information on this or know a good source for this kind of stuff? I've had a good look online but am yet to get a copy of Robert Shelton, Greil Marcus or Michael Gray's books...

Thanks!
K


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue February 28th, 2012, 22:02 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 26705
Location: the doll's house
I was just reading the booklet to the 'official' release to the Party Tapes today, and it says Glover taped them, in three sessions. You can get it here if it serves your research purposes, copyright runs out after 50 years in the UK, so it's legal.
http://www.bobdylanisis.com/contents/en-uk/d2.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue February 28th, 2012, 22:22 GMT 

Joined: Tue February 28th, 2012, 21:15 GMT
Posts: 14
Thanks for this. So do you figure these new recordings can be trusted? If so, it's interesting to know the party tape was also put together using material from different sessions. Looking at the tracklisting, it actually differs from the version I have of the tape, so perhaps the different sessions would go as follows:

- Ramblin' Round to the end of Pastures of Plenty
- This Land is Your Land to the end of Devilish Mary
- Railroal Bill to the end of Bonnie, why'd you cut my hair

On my copy, this third chunk (Railroad Bill - Bonnie, why'd...) comes in between Pastures of Plenty and This Land is Your Land...

Can I also just check the duration of your copy? Mine is 1h19min long for the party tape, and 1h21 min for the hotel one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue February 28th, 2012, 22:39 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 26705
Location: the doll's house
I'll have a look at the timing in a minute....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue February 28th, 2012, 22:48 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 26705
Location: the doll's house
kikjess wrote:
Can I also just check the duration of your copy? Mine is 1h19min long for the party tape


That's about right, mine's 79:21 min.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue February 28th, 2012, 23:16 GMT 

Joined: Tue February 28th, 2012, 21:15 GMT
Posts: 14
Thanks! Do you know who might have put together these BDA records releases? I can't find anything online about the record label...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue February 28th, 2012, 23:19 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 26705
Location: the doll's house
No idea.... you might want to ask the helpful people at ISIS magazine.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 00:03 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 13th, 2009, 19:35 GMT
Posts: 1083
Location: Amsterdam
I’m certainly not the greatest expert on this board but I love the second tape and I’ve done some research in the past too. I finally gave up. I’ve read so many conflicting stories about the tape. I wouldn’t bet any money on any of the circulating ‘facts’ except for the date (December 22, 1961) and maybe the location (Beecher’s apartment).

All the major researchers in the field (Glen Dundas, Michael Gray, Clinton Heylin, Michael Krogsgaard, etc.) seem to have come to different conclusions and/or provide different details.

Maybe this has changed in the last couple of years and some kind of general consensus has been reached (I must admit that I haven’t read a single Dylan reference book in the last 5 years or so) but I doubt it.

Here’s a quote from Michael Grey’s Dylan Encyclopaedia (released in 2006). It’s pretty detailed and I guess the info is as good as any you will find:

“When Dylan returned to Minneapolis for the second time, in December 1961, and performed a large number of songs at his old friend Bonnie Beecher’s apartment (or possibly at Dave Whitaker’s), this powerful informal session was recorded on two machines. The tape made on Beecher’s art teacher’s machine has long circulated, and in reasonable quality; the one Tony Glover recorded has not been circulated, and is in better quality. Three songs taken from this ‘master tape’-Hard Times In New York Town’, ‘Dink’s Song’ and ‘I Was Young When I Left Home’-have been issued officially; the first in 1991 on the Bootleg Series Vols.1-3, the others in 2005 on the Bootleg Series Vol. 7-No Direction Home: The Soundtrack.”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 06:21 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon January 30th, 2006, 16:00 GMT
Posts: 968
"Party Tape"??

I love parties.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 07:22 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon January 30th, 2006, 16:00 GMT
Posts: 968
For researchers only-

http://www.bjorner.com/DSN00020%201961.htm

Olof has it 99% correct, maybe soon to be 100%.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 12:25 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 21st, 2010, 12:16 GMT
Posts: 1020
Can anyone who`s got the new set confirm if the sound quality is better or the same as what`s already out there ?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 13:43 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 26705
Location: the doll's house
barney wrote:
Can anyone who`s got the new set confirm if the sound quality is better or the same as what`s already out there ?


There are some sound dropouts, and a disclaimer on the sleeve saying not to expect perfect quality, but to me it's very listenable for what it is. I've not compared it to earlier versions, though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 15:30 GMT 

Joined: Sun June 22nd, 2008, 12:57 GMT
Posts: 119
lowgen said:

>For researchers only-
>
>http://www.bjorner.com/DSN00020%201961.htm
>
>Olof has it 99% correct, maybe soon to be 100%.

Olof's information for the May '61 tape:

Unidentified coffehouse
Minneapolis, Minnesota
May 1961
- - - 25 song tape - - -
This tape may therefore come from a coffeehouse performance.

That's first I'd heard of the May '61 tape being recorded at a coffeehouse.
Not that such wasn't the case - but surely after hours and not during a live performance.
Anyone know the source or background for Olof's designation?

lowgen?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 17:47 GMT 

Joined: Tue February 28th, 2012, 21:15 GMT
Posts: 14
erikdw123 wrote:
“Three songs taken from this ‘master tape’-Hard Times In New York Town’, ‘Dink’s Song’ and ‘I Was Young When I Left Home’-have been issued officially; the first in 1991 on the Bootleg Series Vols.1-3, the others in 2005 on the Bootleg Series Vol. 7-No Direction Home: The Soundtrack.”


Wow, fascinating. I was always blinded by the fact that on the Minnesota tape version of 'I was Young When I Left Home', there's this 'It's gotta be good for somebody' intro, but actually looking more closely at the timing, the Glover tape (included on No Direction Home) begins just after the end of that intro...

It's surprising the facts haven't been properly straightened out for these tapes - don't they among the strongest recordings of early Dylan material, his coffee house repertoire and Guthrie influence? (all the stuff that was clearly very important to him but that he didn't include on his first record)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 18:14 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon January 30th, 2006, 16:00 GMT
Posts: 968
>>That's first I'd heard of the May '61 tape being recorded at a coffeehouse.


I believe you've actually seen this before, including the Beecher interview that Olof quoted which puts the lie to the dopey "at Bonnie's house" presumption.

Again- Paul Nelson's first-gen tape that spread around had no info on venue or date or taper.

I regret that Nelson wasn't pushed for the taper's name. Someone should ask Dylan about all this, eh?

Now please excuse me while I return to that 'party'. (Worst bootleg name ever.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 18:18 GMT 
Promethium Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue December 14th, 2010, 14:22 GMT
Posts: 26705
Location: the doll's house
lowgen wrote:
Now please excuse me while I return to that 'party'. (Worst bootleg name ever.)


So true, huh? It doesn't sound like much of a party. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 21:09 GMT 

Joined: Sun June 22nd, 2008, 12:57 GMT
Posts: 119
> I believe you've actually seen this before, including the Beecher interview that Olof quoted which puts the lie to the dopey "at Bonnie's house" presumption.

Oh my word, what a terrible case of misinterpretation! Of course, the Beecher haircut story is well known, but somebody had better reread the biographical accounts more closely. Yes, the great 'short haircut' incident happened, but that was well before Dylan ever left Minnesota in the first place. I don't doubt that he sang "Bonnie, Why'd You Cut My Hair" in a coffeehouse the same night he wrote it, but that performance has absolutely NOTHING to do with what's on the tape recorded May 1961. Likely, the very LAST time he performed the song, it was recorded on that May 1961 tape. Someone is taking a mistaken leap by associating Bonnie's story about something that occurred many months before with Dylan's return trip to Minnesota the FOLLOWING year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed February 29th, 2012, 23:03 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon January 30th, 2006, 16:00 GMT
Posts: 968
Bob, you've lost me.

I'm not sure what you're saying or why you're saying it or, if you're disputing something, the what and why of it all.

And if your unspecified "biographical accounts" are from Heylin, well...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu March 1st, 2012, 00:06 GMT 

Joined: Sun June 22nd, 2008, 12:57 GMT
Posts: 119
Plain and simple:

1. The Beecher interview which Olof quotes is about events (the haircut, the song first publicly performed in a coffeehouse) occuring sometime in 1960. Bonnie told about them in her 1990 The Telegraph interview.

2. Olof's immediately following comment: "This tape [the May '61 tape] may therefore come from a coffeehouse performance."

Is he saying there's a connection between 1 and 2?

Does he believe that the short haircut, writing of "Why'd You Cut ...?", 1st performance in a coffeehouse all happened in May '61, and that the coffeehouse version is *this* recording?

If he knows that Dylan once performed the song back in 1960, that still has little bearing on the song's performance location the following year (May '61).

Sure, the tape *may* have come from a coffeehouse. It could have come from anywhere. An apartment, a house?

I don't see a basis for calling it "Unidentified Coffeehouse". Apparently, Olof does.

Is there other information?

I repeat my earlier question: Anyone know the source or background for Olof's designation on the May '61 tape?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu March 1st, 2012, 01:19 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon January 30th, 2006, 16:00 GMT
Posts: 968
>>I don't see a basis for calling it "Unidentified Coffeehouse". Apparently, Olof does.


Olof said "may therefore come from". You have misquoted him.

In my opinion, some Sherlock wannabe, unaware of or discounting the older discographies, assumed that because the song is addressed to Bonnie, it must have been performed at her house and declared it true. That's all there is to it.

Very similar to some Sherlock saying the Candyman tape was made at Whitaker's house because "Whitaker's" is mentioned on the tape. Dopey fact creations I say, and a time wasting distraction all around.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu March 1st, 2012, 02:47 GMT 

Joined: Sun June 22nd, 2008, 12:57 GMT
Posts: 119
Nobody is misquoting Olof.

His header for the tape clearly says, "Unidentified coffeehouse".

I do question his proviso statement (or is it a deduction?): "may therefore come from" *if* he is somehow inferring from Bonnie's story that the tape did (or may have) come from a coffeehouse. There is no basis for believing that it did. Or that it came from Bonnie's house. Or from anywhere else in particular based on the available information.

It may have come from Mars :-)

For sure, people do make assumptions and jump to conclusions based on what they think they know or believe they've figured out. And it gets passed along and accepted by others. Unless, there's some real evidence or verification, the "coffeehouse" designation is no closer than the one about Mars. The trouble is, people will see Olof's header designation and take it as gospel when there may be no real basis behind it.

As far as I'm concerned, the tape is still: Unknown Location (in Minneapolis)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu March 1st, 2012, 04:48 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Mon January 30th, 2006, 16:00 GMT
Posts: 968
I see what you mean about Olof's title line. It is indeed a presumption, and a good example of how missing info is easily filled in. Fortunately, Olof clearly qualified it in his text and his title is much better than the previous 2 titles though sadly it will always be passed around as the "party tape".

I assume as you do that it is from Minneapolis.


Last edited by lowgen on Thu March 1st, 2012, 05:00 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu March 1st, 2012, 04:53 GMT 
Mercury Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri July 15th, 2011, 02:23 GMT
Posts: 14754
Appreciate those clarifications Michael and Bob.
Thanks for keeping us straight on this.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu March 1st, 2012, 14:20 GMT 

Joined: Sun June 22nd, 2008, 12:57 GMT
Posts: 119
I agree with lowgen, the historically prevailing name, "Party Tape" for the May '61 recording is surely not at all accurate. Unfortunately, that's probably how it will forever be known even if that wasn't the situation at the time.

To me the tape sounds like a very determined effort to collect songs from Dylan's repertoire but certainly not done as part of a live onstage performance. There's little, if any, ambient noise from the room where the recording takes place. You can hear the recorder being shut off following each song. At one point, I think at the conclusion of "Car, Car", a female voice very softly says "thank you" (possibly indicating Dylan had been asked to sing that song).

Without a doubt, the tape represents a significant point in Dylan's artistic development (performancewise and repertoire). Already, he's light years beyond where he was when he was last in Minnesota but still not near the level he would be when he next returned.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu March 1st, 2012, 17:41 GMT 

Joined: Tue February 28th, 2012, 21:15 GMT
Posts: 14
bstacy wrote:
To me the tape sounds like a very determined effort to collect songs from Dylan's repertoire but certainly not done as part of a live onstage performance. There's little, if any, ambient noise from the room where the recording takes place. You can hear the recorder being shut off following each song. At one point, I think at the conclusion of "Car, Car", a female voice very softly says "thank you" (possibly indicating Dylan had been asked to sing that song).


I agree both tapes definitely sound like they were done in a domestic setting.
On the second tape (ie. the "hotel" one) you can also hear Bob ask "Is it recording now?" at the start of "Naomi Wise". Doubt if he was performing live he would have waited to check if the recorder was on before playing. Guess this might also show that this is the start of the second tape from the "hotel" session (which I had previously read was from two different tapes).

Also, if he was just back in Minneapolis for a short stay, though I guess it's not impossible he could have found a place to play live on such short notice - perhaps in one of the places he used to play when he lived there - it still seems more plausible that he just played at the house of whoever he was staying with.

So I guess no-one could drop Bob a quick email to get him to straighten this one out for us? =)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group