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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 14:39 GMT 
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Brairy Rose wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
Apparently, he's an addict, then.



That's bullcrap. . .people can quit smoking cigarettes.



People can quit using all kinds of drugs, that doesn't mean they're not addicted to them in the first place. Smokers are addicts just as much as alcoholics or junkies are.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 14:47 GMT 

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Johanna Parker wrote:
People can quit using all kinds of drugs, that doesn't mean they're not addicted to them in the first place. Smokers are addicts just as much as alcoholics or junkies are.



I would say crack junkies have a harder time quitting than cigarette smokers. I used to smoke a pack a day. It was very hard to quit but it can be done.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 14:49 GMT 
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You've got to want to do it, though.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 14:50 GMT 

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Johanna Parker wrote:
You've got to want to do it, though.



Exactly.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 15:19 GMT 
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If only it was so simple.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 17:32 GMT 

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raging_glory wrote:
If only it was so simple.


I don't understand why people make quitting smoking difficult beyond stopping. Yes, it's hard, yes it's extremely unpleasant, yes it's maddening, yes you think you can't breathe without dragging smoke into your lungs. I remember hyperventilating into a lunch bag because I felt like I was suffocating. People go through all sorts of withdrawl symptoms. But they do quit smoking without white knuckling the rest of their lives for lack of nicotine.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 17:37 GMT 
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Back to topic...

I've never personally heard Bob have a "shot" voice. But that's just my experience.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 17:44 GMT 

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SirDogg wrote:
Back to topic...


Yes Sir. . .


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 19:39 GMT 

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First of all, where is the evidence that Bob has had surgery on his vocal chords? What's the source?

Second, there is a difference between studio recording and touring. Touring, Bob basically has to shout night after night. In studio, Bob could always get the backing track recorded and then overlay his vocals. This would permit him to sing in a very soft, unpunishing way - plus he could wait for a 'good day' to get the track down. Whether he would do this is another question, but given the beautiful vocals of MT, I suspect he's done something like this before.

I feel that his voice is a liability on TTL and an absolute disaster on CITH. These are the first albums since the 1980s where this is the case, in my book. So the condition of his voice is definitely a consideration. Like I always say, if you can't hit recognizable notes, you're no longer singing, just gargling, wheezing, and expectorating.

Finally: there's always the possibility of talking blues. Were Bob to explore this form his inability to hit notes would cease to matter.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 19:50 GMT 
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Everybody knows that's not Bob talking on Theme Time Radio Hour, right?

Yes, he still smokes, and no, he's never had surgery on his vocal cords. I know all the surgeons.


-


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 19:55 GMT 
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Lone Pilgrim wrote:
First of all, where is the evidence that Bob has had surgery on his vocal chords? What's the source?


Personally, I hear the evidence in the ca. 700 concerts he's sung since 2004. If his voice was still in an equally damaged or worse shape as it was then, there's no way he'd still be touring.

It's really a bit like asking where is the evidence that Bob wrote All Along The Watchtower.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 20:33 GMT 

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Lone Pilgrim wrote:
First of all, where is the evidence that Bob has had surgery on his vocal chords? What's the source?

Second, there is a difference between studio recording and touring. Touring, Bob basically has to shout night after night. In studio, Bob could always get the backing track recorded and then overlay his vocals. This would permit him to sing in a very soft, unpunishing way - plus he could wait for a 'good day' to get the track down. Whether he would do this is another question, but given the beautiful vocals of MT, I suspect he's done something like this before.

I feel that his voice is a liability on TTL and an absolute disaster on CITH. These are the first albums since the 1980s where this is the case, in my book. So the condition of his voice is definitely a consideration. Like I always say, if you can't hit recognizable notes, you're no longer singing, just gargling, wheezing, and expectorating.

Finally: there's always the possibility of talking blues. Were Bob to explore this form his inability to hit notes would cease to matter.

Yup, singing in studio is much much different than singing on tour. Especially if Dylan were to do an album devoid of his now stereotypical blues growlings. A low key acoustic/piano driven album of dark ballads is certainly within Dylan's vocal reach these days.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 20:34 GMT 
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Nicotine is a highly addictive drug, and the fact that some people overcome their nicotine addiction doesn't change its addictive properties.

The relative strengths of addictive properties of various substances has received considerable research. Here's the abstract on one such study of tobacco versus cocaine: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

Abstract
Is nicotine more addictive than cocaine? That claim is increasingly in vogue, often supported by data showing the high likelihood of progression to daily tobacco use following experimentation and the high percentage of cigarette smokers, compared with cocaine users who appear addicted. In the context of criteria for addiction or dependence presented by the World Health Organization, the American Psychiatric Association, and the US Surgeon General, we consider several lines of evidence, including patterns of use, mortality, physical dependence potential, and pharmacologic addiction liability measures. Within each line of evidence, we compare nicotine with cocaine. We conclude that on the current evidence nicotine cannot be considered more addicting than cocaine. Both are highly addicting drugs for which patterns of use and the development of dependence are strongly influenced by factors such as availability, price, social pressures, and regulations, as well as certain pharmacologic characteristics.



Here's a long article's abstract on the epidemiology of addictions to tobacco, alcohol, controlled substances, and inhalants, dating to 1994: http://www.umbrellasociety.ca/web/files ... iction.pdf

Studying prevalence of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (3rd ed., rev., American Psychiatric Association, 1987) drug dependence among Americans 15-54 years old, we found about 1 in 4 (24%) had a history of tobacco dependence; about 1 in 7 (14%) had a history of alcohol dependence; and about 1 in 13 (7.5%) had a history of dependence on an inhalant or controlled drug. About one third of tobacco smokers had developed tobacco dependence and about 15% of drinkers had become alcohol dependent. Among users of the other drugs, about 15% had become dependent. Many more Americans age 15-54 have been affected by dependence on psychoactive substances than by other psychiatric disturbances now accorded a higher priority in mental health service delivery systems, prevention, and sponsored research programs.

So this research indicates that tobacco users have a higher incidence of addiction than users of other drugs, including alcohol. At this point, it's surprising that anyone would question whether or not tobacco is addictive. It clearly is, which is why it is so profitable a commodity.


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PostPosted: Sun February 26th, 2012, 22:51 GMT 
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Bob's voice is an addictive commodity.


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 00:04 GMT 

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harmonica albert wrote:
Nicotine is a highly addictive drug, and the fact that some people overcome their nicotine addiction doesn't change its addictive properties.

The relative strengths of addictive properties of various substances has received considerable research. Here's the abstract on one such study of tobacco versus cocaine: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

Abstract
Is nicotine more addictive than cocaine? That claim is increasingly in vogue, often supported by data showing the high likelihood of progression to daily tobacco use following experimentation and the high percentage of cigarette smokers, compared with cocaine users who appear addicted. In the context of criteria for addiction or dependence presented by the World Health Organization, the American Psychiatric Association, and the US Surgeon General, we consider several lines of evidence, including patterns of use, mortality, physical dependence potential, and pharmacologic addiction liability measures. Within each line of evidence, we compare nicotine with cocaine. We conclude that on the current evidence nicotine cannot be considered more addicting than cocaine. Both are highly addicting drugs for which patterns of use and the development of dependence are strongly influenced by factors such as availability, price, social pressures, and regulations, as well as certain pharmacologic characteristics.



Here's a long article's abstract on the epidemiology of addictions to tobacco, alcohol, controlled substances, and inhalants, dating to 1994: http://www.umbrellasociety.ca/web/files ... iction.pdf

Studying prevalence of Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (3rd ed., rev., American Psychiatric Association, 1987) drug dependence among Americans 15-54 years old, we found about 1 in 4 (24%) had a history of tobacco dependence; about 1 in 7 (14%) had a history of alcohol dependence; and about 1 in 13 (7.5%) had a history of dependence on an inhalant or controlled drug. About one third of tobacco smokers had developed tobacco dependence and about 15% of drinkers had become alcohol dependent. Among users of the other drugs, about 15% had become dependent. Many more Americans age 15-54 have been affected by dependence on psychoactive substances than by other psychiatric disturbances now accorded a higher priority in mental health service delivery systems, prevention, and sponsored research programs.

So this research indicates that tobacco users have a higher incidence of addiction than users of other drugs, including alcohol. At this point, it's surprising that anyone would question whether or not tobacco is addictive. It clearly is, which is why it is so profitable a commodity.



Very informative. . .


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 00:11 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Bob's voice is an addictive commodity.

Amen!


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 00:16 GMT 
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No


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 00:21 GMT 
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shooting_star_night wrote:
No


What?


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 00:59 GMT 
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I think she means "No, Bob's voice isn't too shot to make another album." I'm with her.


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 01:04 GMT 
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Oh okay. So am I. I thought they were replying to some previous post.


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 01:08 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
Oh okay. So am I. I thought they were replying to some previous post.

Are there multiple shooting stars?


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 01:09 GMT 
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I didn't ask them yet if they were female or male.


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 05:10 GMT 
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Johanna, it would be nice to be able to pinpoint when you think this surgery took place, to compare and contrast. Could you give an example of a 2004 concert where Bob's voice is totally shot? ive noticed you mentioning the Strá concert as a high point of this year.
The Strá concert was in July of 2004, do you think it might have happened prior to this concert? but if im not mistaken you seem to have implied earlier that it was sometime in late 2004/early 2005?
His voice on Modern Times is noticeably smoother than any concerts prior to its recording. Perhaps he had it before those sessions, which were in February 2006?


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 05:18 GMT 
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His voice was at it's lowest in 2004, yet he raised to the challenge of some special moments, such as during 'Standing In The Doorway' at the Stra concert, which took place amidst a hail storm. Listen to Montauban of the same tour for an example of a voive devastatingly shot. I'm not 100% certain when he had treatment, but it went uphill again in the years since.


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PostPosted: Mon February 27th, 2012, 05:45 GMT 
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Thanks Johanna, im downloading the Stra and Montauban gigs now.
I have the day off work today, so i will listen once the sun comes up and its a reasonable time to play them. :p

If i look back at the state of his voice over the last eleven or twelve years, i would say it was at its best in 2000. In fact id say 2000 had the best vocals of the whole NET. But there was a steady decline from 2001 until 2005. The European tour at the end of 2005 in particular were amazing and found Bob giving very expressive vocal performances. (the last show of 2005 was Dublin, and its definitely in my top ten NET shows, Boots of Spanish Leather and Visions of Johanna are just sumptuous). Then Modern Times was recorded early 2006 and his voice was even clearer. This for me was the final peak of his vocal abilities, since then, like after 2000 his voice has been on a steady decline, although i did notice a subtle and vague improvement last year.

So if he really did have surgery i would say it was either August/September 2005, just before the european leg of the tour that year, or in December 2005/Jan 2006 before the recording of Modern Times.
But to be honest im quite sceptical as to whether he had it at all. If he did have it, i would say he is due another visit to the surgery anytime soon :P


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