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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 11:17 GMT 

Joined: Thu January 28th, 2016, 11:16 GMT
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I've spent the morning listening to the Pat Garrett sessions and I can't help but feel that the final soundtrack album didn't really live up to its potential.

It could have been a really interesting project had he spent a bit more time on it. In the end it's pleasant enough, but a bit of a throwaway oddity. In my opinion it wouldn't have taken much atall to take it out of the soundtrack territory and make it a powerful record in its own right. (Obviously that was never Bob's intention but its a shame nonetheless).

'Rock Me Mama' could have been a 70's highlight and its such a shame that it was discarded so early. 'Goodbye Holly' could have broken up the density of instrumentals, which although brilliant, become a bit overbearing. If he'd have included those and perhaps only had one version of 'Billy' it would suddenly flow like an album. In the end we only get a fleeting and slightly underwhelming taste of Cowboy Bob.

What are other peoples thoughts?


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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 12:05 GMT 

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It's a soundtrack - the only way anyone can agree with your premise is by ignoring that fact.

If you listen to the music whilst watching the film, this is very obvious ...... and very evocative.


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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 12:28 GMT 
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Give it another 4 or 5 years.
It’ll come around, all glorified, when
the Euro Copyright deadline approaches.

Which is exciting because it’s a fun overlooked Bob period.


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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 12:42 GMT 

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inthealley wrote:
It's a soundtrack - the only way anyone can agree with your premise is by ignoring that fact.

If you listen to the music whilst watching the film, this is very obvious ...... and very evocative.



I said as much in my original post. Kind of missing the point though...I was saying that some of the songwriting went above and beyond the soundtrack premise and it could have easily been fleshed out into something more.


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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 13:28 GMT 
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Wasted potential, for sure.
I always thought of it as a throw-away project. The album has 2 songs basically, Knocking on heaven's door and different versions of "Billy". Both throw-away songs, IMO. The instrumentals are useless. On the out-takes album there's Rock me, which, even after the re-write turning it into Wagon Wheel, is still a throw away song. There's another song he sings on, can't remember the name. Definitely a dry spell for Bob.


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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 13:59 GMT 

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Played it and the outtakes in the car during a recent toad trip through New Mexico from Carlsbad to Santa Fe and Colorado. It was perfect. The music was sublime the way it complemented the landscape. It was also a kick driving through the actual Rio Pecos Valley. I agree that you have to hear it as a soundtrack or as atmosphere music, if you just let it play gently in the background, the wonder unfolds


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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 15:05 GMT 

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Quote:
Re: Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid - Wasted Potential?

no,
just no


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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 16:31 GMT 
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The simple fact that "Heaven's Door" has become one of Bob's most impressive covers by another band(Guns and Roses), and that single cover is a stunning example of mixed artistic genius with superb results, I would say that single fact alone kind of blows your whole premise right out of the water. Most artists would give their first child up to write song a song that great. When Bob Dylan dies, that song title will be heard repeatedly. "Billy" is a great and underrated song. The throwaway song, "Rock Me Moma", has become a country standard and total home run for TWO different bands - Old Crow M. Show and Darius Rucker. "Rock Me. Moma" is a very catchy tune, the type you can't get out of your head. In the music industry, that characteristic in a song, is called a "hook". That is another thing artists strive and pray for - a good hook. Bob Dylan comes up with them so easily - he tosses some away!

So rather than "wasted potential", as you wrongly claim, as just another Dylan negativist, Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid is simply another gift from God.


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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 18:34 GMT 

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I love this album and the movie. The title song brought Peckinpah to tears. Nuff said.

Also, Dylan started filming his part for the movie 45 years ago today.


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PostPosted: Mon December 18th, 2017, 21:23 GMT 

Joined: Thu January 28th, 2016, 11:16 GMT
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chrome horse wrote:
So rather than "wasted potential", as you wrongly claim, as just another Dylan negativist, Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid is simply another gift from God.


Thats not what I meant atall you plonker. I was saying that the songs were great and at a time when Dylan was a bit lost artistically it would have been cool if he'd further explored this sound. The soundtrack is lovely, don't get your knickers in a twist.


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 00:06 GMT 
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I've never been able to find one outtake in particular from these sessions. I have Pecos Blues and it's not on there either. It's the minute long track that plays when Kristofferson gives himself up to Coburn fairly early on in the film. It's really just Bob and several others singing "La la la la la...la la la la," but it's a great track!
Any help would be appreciated.


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 06:32 GMT 
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No joke, this is one of my favourite albums. Sure, it's not one of his absolute "best", but it's a great relaxing listen. A perfect weekend morning album, if there ever were one.


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 08:23 GMT 

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toilandblood546 wrote:
Played it and the outtakes in the car during a recent toad trip through New Mexico from Carlsbad to Santa Fe and Colorado. It was perfect. The music was sublime the way it complemented the landscape. It was also a kick driving through the actual Rio Pecos Valley. I agree that you have to hear it as a soundtrack or as atmosphere music, if you just let it play gently in the background, the wonder unfolds


It is perfect for the movie, and a great, atmospheric, listen in its own right. I would love to listen to this during a road trip like the one described above. However, while Heaven's Door went on to be a big hit, Old Crow had to do a lot to Rock Me, Mama. Don't get me wrong, I love the take but it's really just the tune and the chorus, not insignificant to the song's structure admittedly, but far from the finished article also.


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 18:48 GMT 

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Dark Horse 77 wrote:
I've never been able to find one outtake in particular from these sessions. I have Pecos Blues and it's not on there either. It's the minute long track that plays when Kristofferson gives himself up to Coburn fairly early on in the film. It's really just Bob and several others singing "La la la la la...la la la la," but it's a great track!
Any help would be appreciated.


It's "Billy Surrenders." The movie clip with the "la la la la's" is on youtube. You're right, it is not on the outtakes CD. There is only a short instrumental version on the CD's, at least the ones I have.

I assumed there were a few instances of movie music that doesn't appear elsewhere, this would be one.


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 19:45 GMT 
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I remember watching some documentary, on youtube, I think, in which they talked about this record. Apparently Peckinpah hired some sort of musical supervisor, a dude with classical training, who was not at all impressed with Bob´s effort. At the end he said something like:
"Finally Sam Peckinpah when to Dylan and told him that the soundtrack was cool, but that he needed another song, there was not enough material for the score. So Dylan wrote that thing, "knock-knock-knocking on heaven´s door". Everybody loved it. It was shit. I quit after that" :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 19:49 GMT 
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I think that's mentioned in Behind The Shades, too. :lol: "Shit"... what a musical expert.


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 21:44 GMT 
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frenchdog wrote:
chrome horse wrote:
So rather than "wasted potential", as you wrongly claim, as just another Dylan negativist, Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid is simply another gift from God.


Thats not what I meant atall you plonker. I was saying that the songs were great and at a time when Dylan was a bit lost artistically it would have been cool if he'd further explored this sound. The soundtrack is lovely, don't get your knickers in a twist.


You also wrote -

"What are other peoples thoughts?"

Hello, anybody home? You wanted feedback. Sorry mine doesn't meet your standards. Mega hits are not wasted potential. The good news? I'm not charging you for a free education, and the high end content to your thread(which was seriously lacking), though with your attitude, I should. Let's just call it my Christmas gift to you. Enjoy!


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 22:28 GMT 

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I asked for thoughts on the album/sessions/era. For you to label me a Dylan negativist was really condescending and just generally irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 23:14 GMT 
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^^^ Maybe the thread title should be renamed:
The Human Condition - Wasted Potential?

Such a shame when two good parties mis-connect...


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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 23:33 GMT 
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From my perspective, it works very well for a soundtrack while not blowing everything out of the water (remember it was a time when the contemporary soundtracks were ennio Morricone and nino rota for the classics; isaac hayes, curtis mayfield and marvin gaye for funk/soul; jimmy cliff for reggae, etc.).
It has good flavour and of course one of Dylan's most well known song, but the rest is underwhelming for a giant like him (later that year we will have Planet Waves, that's another level).

But, if we look at the outtakes and naturally the sonic atmosphere, it could have been so much better and maybe become a classic in Dylan's repertoire. The lack of songwriting material indicates more a difficulty for Bob to go back on track (he did lose part of his creativity in the early 70's) than sheer laziness on his part.
For me, and that's just my opinion, the record is closer to the self-indulgence on Self Portrait than the brilliance of Planet Waves and of course the magnum opus that is Blood On The Tracks. Even with lots of rewrites on Rock Me, Mama or Goodbye Holly, the record would still be a middle of the road album. Cool, but not phenomenal.
We're talking about Bob, so that doesn't really matter since he does what pleases him (with great talent), and many artists today will be quite happy with such a record.


And about the title of the thread: provocative sure, but a good way to bring focus on Pat Garrett (evidence being the passion in the comments).


Last edited by BobDylan66 on Wed December 20th, 2017, 00:01 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue December 19th, 2017, 23:51 GMT 
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frenchdog wrote:
I asked for thoughts on the album/sessions/era. For you to label me a Dylan negativist was really condescending and just generally irrelevant.


I gave you deep insight into the album, and some perspective you probably missed, and again, for free!

Your thread title is - "Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid - Wasted Potential?"

Are you telling us that is a positive endorsement of Bob Dylan? If you meant it as a positive thing, forgive my misinterpretation, but you put that out there and asked for comments. In a moment of generosity - I volunteered. Your whining is kind of catchy though, so it's not a total loss!


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 00:25 GMT 
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asdf29 wrote:
Dark Horse 77 wrote:
I've never been able to find one outtake in particular from these sessions. I have Pecos Blues and it's not on there either. It's the minute long track that plays when Kristofferson gives himself up to Coburn fairly early on in the film. It's really just Bob and several others singing "La la la la la...la la la la," but it's a great track!
Any help would be appreciated.


It's "Billy Surrenders." The movie clip with the "la la la la's" is on youtube. You're right, it is not on the outtakes CD. There is only a short instrumental version on the CD's, at least the ones I have.

I assumed there were a few instances of movie music that doesn't appear elsewhere, this would be one.


Many thanks. I'd love to find it without the dialogue overlapping the music.


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 01:04 GMT 
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I remember staying up real late the first time this was on network TV and being totally mesmerized by both the movie and the music....mostly the music


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 03:07 GMT 
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Pat Garrett came out just the way I would expect given the scenario and personalities involved. I don't think any potential was wasted. Perhaps the collective potential was sacrificed due to the individual potentials being saved up for something else.


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 06:31 GMT 
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quick note: title says "WASTED POTENTIAL?" not "WASTED POTENTIAL"

BIG DIFFERENCE.....a question mark suggests a conversation and does not suggest merely a negative answer or orientation. Should he have written "POTENT MASTERPIECE?"
No...because it is obviously not a masterpiece and obviously not really comparable to BLood on The Tracks...or any of his actual albums....


that being said...i love the movie and i love how the soundtrack works with the film...(the directors cut)
maybe the banjo style is too modern for the period...or even the guitars used,
but it has that sitting around and just picking and singing kind of sound...
And it's easy to imagine Dylan's character Alias sitting around trying to write a great song
about the guy he's riding with: Billy The Kid!
and the fact that the soundtrack exists makes me happy. I'd rather have it than not have it.
It does feel kind of like a bloated EP...
maybe they could have made some different choices.
I wonder how much Dylan was involved with the final product..he was angry with COLUMBIA at the time.
However, years later...Rock me Mama became Wagon Wheel
and then Dylan actually sent Old Crow Sweet Amarillo, thinking they might strike gold twice..
remember, DYLAN has made a little extra dough because of Wagon Wheel....

I have the feeling Dylan recorded what he recorded...with some intent about what sounds went
with what scenes....but the film got butchered and he probably hated the end result and just
moved on....i think he had a lot of fun though....especially acting.

Seems like he tried to rectify this later on when he released TOGETHER THROUGH LIFE...
Those songs were borne out of a soundtrack (which was never released)....
the film, MY OWN LOVE SONG, had a lot of Dylan instrumentals....
and instead of releasing them with the songs he decided to just cut an actual album...

He could have done something like that back then....but his mind was moving....he was changing labels....getting screwed...about to have an album of outtakes released out of spite for him....blah blah blah/////

I think his decision to allow Old Crow to record two songs from the session suggests that he himself
may have felt some of the "wasted potential", and I think it might have been Old Crow that alerted him to that
fact.....


Final thought: the album could have been really great If Harry Dean Stanton was on it. (where the hell was he when they recorded those tracks?)


also for the mean yappers...
STOP BEING MEAN TO PEOPLE TRYING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT
A LESS TALKED ABOUT ODD LP (soundtrack)

ps...listen to Gillian Welch & David Rawlings reading of BILLY....sublime!


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