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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Thu November 30th, 2017, 15:59 GMT 
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Location: I followed you beneath the stars
To make things worse, BotT will always remain my favourite album EVER. It's just incomparable. Point made.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Thu November 30th, 2017, 16:37 GMT 
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Wormy are you drunk, high, or both??


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Thu November 30th, 2017, 16:42 GMT 
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bloodblondehighwayhome wrote:
No, I really, really don't. Sorry.
You don't call the greatest songwriter of all times, one of the greatest artists of the 20th century, in any field, a "3rd regional player" and get away with it.
I'm very passionate about this kind of thing because Dylan means an awful lot to me and frankly, I wouldn't have expected to read this ^ on ER.

Aw, come on, bloody, don´t take it so hard.
Dylan´s work means more to me than any other artist aswell, but that doesn´t blind me from realizing that there were MANY others greater than him before.
Speaking strictly of songwritting, Cole Porter, George Gershwin, Rogers & Hart, Robert Johnson, AP Carter, Woody Guthrie, Hank Williams, Willie Dixon quickly come to mind.
And then there were many others who, through their singing, charisma, energy and/or musical talents conveyed more greatness than Bob ever did. Here the list is endless: just about any classic bluesman, jazzman and classical artist that you can find in a record store, plus Ray Charles, Johnny Ace, Little Willie John, Otis Redding, Sam Cooke, Irma Thomas, James Brown, Mahalia Jackson, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, James Carr, Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry...

Bob himself agrees with this. He always speaks with reverence and humbleness of his masters, knowing they are the true legends here. He does have a habit of forgetting to give them credit in the credits of his records, though :?


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Thu November 30th, 2017, 16:44 GMT 
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kuddukan wrote:
Wormy are you drunk, high, or both??

I wish :(


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Thu November 30th, 2017, 20:44 GMT 

Joined: Tue January 6th, 2015, 15:03 GMT
Posts: 493
Apples and oranges. I would no more try and say which is "better" between Dylan and Sinatra, than I would between Mozart and Elmore James.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Thu November 30th, 2017, 21:19 GMT 
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The times we are living in are not "The Dark Ages." At least concerning Dylan. The standards albums aren't great by any means and probably won't be remembered as part of his legacy, but they are still a nice listen. His voice has somehow improved since he started singing them and they are well done. I'd rather listen to these albums than anything he did in the '80s and '90s (except Shot of Love, Empire Burlesque, Oh Mercy, and Time Out of Mind). The live shows have been reinvigorated as well. Not to mention the amazing Bootleg Series entries that have been released in the last few years! It is a GREAT time to be a Dylan fan. If you don't his new albums, you can always look forward to the next Bootleg Series or copyright collection.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Fri December 1st, 2017, 07:56 GMT 
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The Dark Ages :lol: Give yourself a shake and open your eyes (and ears).


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Fri December 1st, 2017, 14:39 GMT 
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wormington wrote:
there were MANY others greater than him before.

And then there were many others who, through their singing, charisma, energy and/or musical talents conveyed more greatness than Bob ever did.




While you were sleeping, Bob Dylan revitalized 2 art forms - poetry and songwriting.


The Nobel committee, in awarding him their literary prize, said it best -

"What brings about the great shifts in the world of literature? Often it is when someone seizes upon a simple, overlooked form, discounted as art in the higher sense, and makes it mutate. Thus, at one point, emerged the modern novel from anecdote and letter, thus arose drama in a new age from high jinx on planks placed on barrels in a marketplace, thus songs in the vernacular dethroned learned Latin poetry, thus too did La Fontaine take animal fables and Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales from the nursery to Parnassian heights. Each time this occurs, our idea of literature changes.

In itself, it ought not to be a sensation that a singer/songwriter now stands recipient of the literary Nobel Prize. In a distant past, all poetry was sung or tunefully recited, poets were rhapsodes, bards, troubadours; 'lyrics' comes from 'lyre'. But what Bob Dylan did was not to return to the Greeks or the Provençals. Instead, he dedicated himself body and soul to 20th century American popular music, the kind played on radio stations and gramophone records for ordinary people, white and black: protest songs, country, blues, early rock, gospel, mainstream music. He listened day and night, testing the stuff on his instruments, trying to learn. But when he started to write similar songs, they came out differently. In his hands, the material changed. From what he discovered in heirloom and scrap, in banal rhyme and quick wit, in curses and pious prayers, sweet nothings and crude jokes, he panned poetry gold, whether on purpose or by accident is irrelevant; all creativity begins in imitation.

Even after fifty years of uninterrupted exposure, we are yet to absorb music's equivalent of the fable's Flying Dutchman. He makes good rhymes, said a critic, explaining greatness. And it is true. His rhyming is an alchemical substance that dissolves contexts to create new ones, scarcely containable by the human brain. It was a shock. With the public expecting poppy folk songs, there stood a young man with a guitar, fusing the languages of the street and the bible into a compound that would have made the end of the world seem a superfluous replay. At the same time, he sang of love with a power of conviction everyone wants to own. All of a sudden, much of the bookish poetry in our world felt aenemic, and the routine song lyrics his colleagues continued to write were like old-fashioned gunpowder following the invention of dynamite. Soon, people stopped comparing him to Woody Guthrie and Hank Williams and turned instead to Blake, Rimbaud, Whitman, Shakespeare.


In the most unlikely setting of all - the commercial gramophone record - he gave back to the language of poetry its elevated style, lost since the Romantics. Not to sing of eternities, but to speak of what was happening around us. As if the oracle of Delphi were reading the evening news.
Recognizing that revolution by awarding Bob Dylan the Nobel Prize was a decision that seemed daring only beforehand and already seems obvious. But does he get the prize for upsetting the system of literature? Not really. There is a simpler explanation, one that we share with all those who stand with beating hearts in front of the stage at one of the venues on his never-ending tour, waiting for that magical voice. Chamfort made the observation that when a master such as La Fontaine appears, the hierarchy of genres - the estimation of what is great and small, high and low in literature - is nullified. “What matter the rank of a work when its beauty is of the highest rank?" he wrote. That is the straight answer to the question of how Bob Dylan belongs in literature: as the beauty of his songs is of the highest rank.

By means of his oeuvre, Bob Dylan has changed our idea of what poetry can be and how it can work. He is a singer worthy of a place beside the Greeks' ἀοιδόι, beside Ovid, beside the Romantic visionaries, beside the kings and queens of the Blues, beside the forgotten masters of brilliant standards. If people in the literary world groan, one must remind them that the gods don't write, they dance and they sing. The good wishes of the Swedish Academy follow Mr. Dylan on his way to coming bandstands."


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Fri December 1st, 2017, 14:40 GMT 
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At ER I get to learn that when I don't like something, it's my fault! I'm a lame Dylan fan. I'm stupid. It's proven by the fact that I can't stand what he's doing now. I don't want Sinatra covers. I don't want to see his current show. I don't like what I've seen or heard. I don't like any of the recent albums. I don't care about the Music Cares speech or the Nobel prize lecture. What's wrong with me?

I love just about everything Dylan has done up until he left the Winterland stage on Thanksgiving 1976. After that there's some good stuff, but it just goes down hill to the point where I have absolutely no interest is what he's doing now. I'm really screwed up, why on earth would I feel this way?


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Fri December 1st, 2017, 14:44 GMT 
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Winter Lude wrote:
At ER I get to learn that when I don't like something, it's my fault! I'm a lame Dylan fan. I'm stupid. It's proven by the fact that I can't stand what he's doing now. I don't want Sinatra covers. I don't want to see his current show. I don't like what I've seen or heard. I don't like any of the recent albums. I don't care about the Music Cares speech or the Nobel prize lecture. What's wrong with me?

I love just about everything Dylan has done up until he left the Winterland stage on Thanksgiving 1976. After that there's some good stuff, but it just goes down hill to the point where I have absolutely no interest is what he's doing now. I'm really screwed up, why on earth would I feel this way?


IF YOU DON'T LIKE DYLAN THEN WHY DO YOU EVEN COME HERE????






:lol: :P


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Fri December 1st, 2017, 17:12 GMT 
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Winter Lude wrote:
At ER I get to learn that when I don't like something, it's my fault! I'm a lame Dylan fan. I'm stupid. It's proven by the fact that I can't stand what he's doing now. I don't want Sinatra covers. I don't want to see his current show. I don't like what I've seen or heard. I don't like any of the recent albums. I don't care about the Music Cares speech or the Nobel prize lecture. What's wrong with me?

I love just about everything Dylan has done up until he left the Winterland stage on Thanksgiving 1976. After that there's some good stuff, but it just goes down hill to the point where I have absolutely no interest is what he's doing now. I'm really screwed up, why on earth would I feel this way?



The basement tapes boot, the 66 recordings, the cutting edge and the news of the recent tulsa archives being digitalized are all good too. There really has been something for everyone these past few years.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Sun December 3rd, 2017, 19:51 GMT 

Joined: Mon January 9th, 2006, 09:01 GMT
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toilandblood546 wrote:
I honestly think that in 200 years when people write about the cultural annals of the USA in our era, it will be the Great American Songbook that is seen as the high water mark of American music, rock is a step down. Now Dylan is absolutely one of the greatest songwriters in history and will be remembered as such, but rock music is a huge step down in music from jazz. That's sure to be an unpopular opinion here, but guitar based three or four chord songs are just not as interesting as well composed music made by composers with actual musical training. Saying that these days makes you a snob, but who would rather see the scribbled drawings of a teenager than paintings painted by actual trained artists who take time to learn their craft. I loved rock when I was younger, but as I get older I find myself going to Ella Fitzgerald or Sinatra or the great jazz artists for more rewarding emotional experiences. I love Dylan, but I think he has been feeling the same lately. I mean how many boring endless 10 minute jams do you need through the three chords of All Along the Watchtower?

I don't get how anyone thinks the songs sung by Ella Fitzgerald or Sinatra are the peak of music.

I can understand how people can think Beethoven or Mahler or Wagner are the peak of music - demanding rewarding music that can change how you think and feel.

And I can understand how people can think rock music is the peak - energetic, involving music that hits you where you are.

I just can't see the smooth jazz stuff. A personal blindspot. It just doesn't touch me. It isn't as well written and conceived as great classical music, and it doesn't have the visceral thrill of great rock music.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Sun December 3rd, 2017, 21:16 GMT 

Joined: Fri January 5th, 2007, 23:38 GMT
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RichardW wrote:
toilandblood546 wrote:
I honestly think that in 200 years when people write about the cultural annals of the USA in our era, it will be the Great American Songbook that is seen as the high water mark of American music, rock is a step down. Now Dylan is absolutely one of the greatest songwriters in history and will be remembered as such, but rock music is a huge step down in music from jazz. That's sure to be an unpopular opinion here, but guitar based three or four chord songs are just not as interesting as well composed music made by composers with actual musical training. Saying that these days makes you a snob, but who would rather see the scribbled drawings of a teenager than paintings painted by actual trained artists who take time to learn their craft. I loved rock when I was younger, but as I get older I find myself going to Ella Fitzgerald or Sinatra or the great jazz artists for more rewarding emotional experiences. I love Dylan, but I think he has been feeling the same lately. I mean how many boring endless 10 minute jams do you need through the three chords of All Along the Watchtower?

I don't get how anyone thinks the songs sung by Ella Fitzgerald or Sinatra are the peak of music.

I can understand how people can think Beethoven or Mahler or Wagner are the peak of music - demanding rewarding music that can change how you think and feel.

And I can understand how people can think rock music is the peak - energetic, involving music that hits you where you are.

I just can't see the smooth jazz stuff. A personal blindspot. It just doesn't touch me. It isn't as well written and conceived as great classical music, and it doesn't have the visceral thrill of great rock music.


I agree with you. I think it goes without saying that music reached its apogee with Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et al, but the jazz era has inculcated itself, cuckoo-like, in a position of exaltation that it simply does not deserve. Exponents of this urbane, very self-proclaimedly 'sophisticated' genre look down on practitioners of more rural musical forms, such as folk, traditional, blues, country, bluegrass and gospel. I'd assert that the latter forms possess incalculably greater depth, variety and complexity, generally also without as exaggerated a commercial motivation. Although very much more commercial, 'rock' music is rooted in these styles. Dylan has unquestionably paid his dues to these genres and can't be criticised for engaging with the jazz style in recent times. Undoubtedly, the above criticisms do not negate the fact that good, well-crafted and deeply meaningful songs exist in the jazz realm and these are what has attracted Dylan's attention. I also think that Dylan sings jazz as one would expect a blues/folk man to do. He could never be an authentic lounge lizard.

Additionally, jazz has degraded into a modern style that sounds to me more like aural dissonance than music. I have absolutely no education in classical music, but when I listen to it, at least the pre-twentieth century material, I have no doubt of its undeniable beauty. Modern jazz-no thanks and I suspect no amount of 'education' would change my mind.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Sun December 3rd, 2017, 21:45 GMT 

Joined: Wed November 18th, 2009, 21:35 GMT
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Winter Lude wrote:
At ER I get to learn that when I don't like something, it's my fault! I'm a lame Dylan fan. I'm stupid. It's proven by the fact that I can't stand what he's doing now. I don't want Sinatra covers. I don't want to see his current show. I don't like what I've seen or heard. I don't like any of the recent albums. I don't care about the Music Cares speech or the Nobel prize lecture. What's wrong with me?

I love just about everything Dylan has done up until he left the Winterland stage on Thanksgiving 1976. After that there's some good stuff, but it just goes down hill to the point where I have absolutely no interest is what he's doing now. I'm really screwed up, why on earth would I feel this way?

I don’t love what Dylan’s doin now either, but man, I still love to watch him on stage! And it’s much easier to score Dylan tics nowadays than it was back in the 70’s!


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Mon December 4th, 2017, 04:38 GMT 

Joined: Mon November 21st, 2016, 23:02 GMT
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yikes the jazz hate here is disappointing. there's no accounting for taste, I suppose ;)

for the skeptics, check out Bill Frisell, one of the giants of modern jazz guitar, playing a Dylan classic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEtQfqpKi1I


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Mon December 4th, 2017, 14:31 GMT 
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kfb2112 wrote:
yikes the jazz hate here is disappointing. there's no accounting for taste, I suppose ;)

for the skeptics, check out Bill Frisell, one of the giants of modern jazz guitar, playing a Dylan classic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEtQfqpKi1I


Hey, great find - El Superbo!!

Good road music.

Ya gotta understand - when you're a Dylan fan, you're automatically an expert in most fields, even some you know nothing about! More importantly, you get to tell Bob Dylan what he should be doing, at any given moment - he has to adjust his output to YOUR tastebuds. Obviously, it's an exclusive club.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Mon December 4th, 2017, 14:36 GMT 

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Jazz is America's classical music and I feel sorry for people who don't get it. If you can't listen to Ella Fitzgerald sing Gershwin and see it as one of the pinnacles of human musical achievement that's absolutely your right. But to me there's little that comes close.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Mon December 4th, 2017, 15:53 GMT 

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toilandblood546 wrote:
Jazz is America's classical music and I feel sorry for people who don't get it. If you can't listen to Ella Fitzgerald sing Gershwin and see it as one of the pinnacles of human musical achievement that's absolutely your right. But to me there's little that comes close.
This. It's as stupid as people who say that Dylan can't sing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Tue December 5th, 2017, 19:36 GMT 
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What's even stupider is that people are throwing around the word "jazz" as if it's one type of music.

And even dumber than that, people thinking that Bob Dylan doing standards is in the same universe as Ella or Frank. The ignorance in this thread is over the top. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Tue December 5th, 2017, 21:10 GMT 
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Winter Lude wrote:
What's even stupider is that people are throwing around the word "jazz" as if it's one type of music.

And even dumber than that, people thinking that Bob Dylan doing standards is in the same universe as Ella or Frank. The ignorance in this thread is over the top. :lol:

Thank you. I enjoy the standards albums and Bob is singing very well on them, but they aren't much compared to Sinatra and Fitzgerald.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Wed December 6th, 2017, 02:22 GMT 
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Mail Train wrote:
Winter Lude wrote:
What's even stupider is that people are throwing around the word "jazz" as if it's one type of music.

And even dumber than that, people thinking that Bob Dylan doing standards is in the same universe as Ella or Frank. The ignorance in this thread is over the top. :lol:

Thank you. I enjoy the standards albums and Bob is singing very well on them, but they aren't much compared to Sinatra and Fitzgerald.


Right from the start I never compared this era to Sinatra and Fitzgerald, Im sure that Bob wasnt even trying to emulate them either.

The real dark ages begin when there is no new Bob music coming from him, and theres enough music left by him to help us come to terms with losing him.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Wed December 6th, 2017, 03:37 GMT 
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esto wrote:
Given that I find Bob's later originals as compelling as his earlier ones I would be happy if he came up with more. I have five years on him and see no reason to believe creativity is numbered by days and since he follows his own drum I wait with interest.


Beautiful post.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Wed December 6th, 2017, 10:05 GMT 
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Theres no reason to believe hes stopped writing I just think he holds back from recording an album until he feels he has the right songs, he could be doing what Neil Young seems to be doing and seemingly recording everything he writes whether its good or bad. Last time he recorded covers brought us Time out of Mind so sometimes less is more.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dark Ages
PostPosted: Wed December 6th, 2017, 19:04 GMT 
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Winter Lude wrote:
What's even stupider is that people are throwing around the word "jazz" as if it's one type of music.

And even dumber than that, people thinking that Bob Dylan doing standards is in the same universe as Ella or Frank. The ignorance in this thread is over the top. :lol:


There's loads of these threads on here since Bob started doing the standards. The threads all devolve the same way, eventually. It's barely worth the bother.


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