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PostPosted: Wed October 11th, 2017, 19:53 GMT 

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Please discuss once you find a way to hear it.


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PostPosted: Wed October 11th, 2017, 20:47 GMT 
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http://www.rollingstone.com/music/premi ... me-w507517


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PostPosted: Wed October 11th, 2017, 20:53 GMT 
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Verses are a slowed down Where Are You Tonight.


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PostPosted: Wed October 11th, 2017, 20:59 GMT 

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The lyrics as transcribed here on the forum are mostly quite accurate, other than substituting the word "you" a few times for the pronoun "I," which alters the perspective a bit.

It's clearly a witheringly accusatory screed, and I cannot help but think it is focused on an imagined character amalgamated from several sources, rather than a single human target.

Then again, that could simply be a misreading of the extremely refracted couplets.

My first thoughts are that this was written quickly, and inspired by some sort of well-known, recently disgraced media figure. The way he describes the person he is speaking of in both the past tense and the present tense is intriguing. As though the person is "dead" to Bob or perhaps to the world that (the person) once called his own.

I can see why he abandoned this one. It's clearly a very personal diss that meant * something * in particular to Bob at the time, and which he likely soon felt was either a rather petty dig or too revealing (as in "Ballad in Plain D").

It reminds me of "Angelina," from a year or so later, but less phantasmagorical and more concerned with straightforward interpersonal relationships.

Regardless, I am very glad this track exists.

~ L.F.


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PostPosted: Wed October 11th, 2017, 21:05 GMT 
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Musically, the song is similar to "Where are you tonight" and I was expecting one or two bridge in the middle of the song. It sounds like an incomplete song, if it had added the bridge it would really be a masterpiece.
Anyway Bob's voice is wonderful and I love all the songs of the gospel period.


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PostPosted: Wed October 11th, 2017, 21:45 GMT 

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the good


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PostPosted: Wed October 11th, 2017, 22:33 GMT 

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Location: I was there for a party once
Lonesomefetter wrote:
The lyrics as transcribed here on the forum are mostly quite accurate, other than substituting the word "you" a few times for the pronoun "I," which alters the perspective a bit.

It's clearly a witheringly accusatory screed, and I cannot help but think it is focused on an imagined character amalgamated from several sources, rather than a single human target.

Then again, that could simply be a misreading of the extremely refracted couplets.

My first thoughts are that this was written quickly, and inspired by some sort of well-known, recently disgraced media figure. The way he describes the person he is speaking of in both the past tense and the present tense is intriguing. As though the person is "dead" to Bob or perhaps to the world that (the person) once called his own.

I can see why he abandoned this one. It's clearly a very personal diss that meant * something * in particular to Bob at the time, and which he likely soon felt was either a rather petty dig or too revealing (as in "Ballad in Plain D").

It reminds me of "Angelina," from a year or so later, but less phantasmagorical and more concerned with straightforward interpersonal relationships.

Regardless, I am very glad this track exists.

~ L.F.


Interesting thoughts. I can see how a song that contains an immediate, visceral motivation might act act an outlet that then burns itself out.

In terms of the composite target for the vitriol, I see comparisons with "Property of Jesus" (which, coincidentally or not, has a kind of Rolling Stones vibe to me).


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PostPosted: Wed October 11th, 2017, 22:46 GMT 
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Rather than *Dark Heat* the song which sounds closer, to my ears, is *You Can't Always Get*, Rolling Stones.

That said, it's the umpteenth masterpiece from 70's Dylan.
Were it a new song, I'd rank it his best since Jokerman without any shadow of a doubt.
My Dylan.
I knew it.


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PostPosted: Wed October 11th, 2017, 23:01 GMT 
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Location: Chile, Concepción.
MAKING A LIAR OUT OF ME
By Bob Dylan

I TELL people, you just going through changes
And that YOU'RE ACQUAINTED both with night and day
That your money's good and YOU just being courageous
On them burning bridges KNOWING your feet are made of clay
Well I say you won't be destroyed by your inventions
That you brought it ALL under captivity
And that you really do have all the best intentions
But you're making a liar out of me

Well I say that you just young and self-tormented
But that deep down you understand
The hopes and fears and dreams of the discontented
THAT threaten now to overtake your promised land
Well I say (delete "that") you'd not sow discord among brothers
Nor drain a man of his integrity
That you remember the cries of orphans and their mothers
But you're making a liar out of me
But you're making a liar out of me

Well I say that, THAT ain't flesh and blood you're drinking
In the wounded empire of your fool's paradise
With A light above your head forever blinking
Turning virgins into merchandise
That you must have been beautiful when you were living
You remind me of some old-time used-to-be
I say you can be trusted with the power you been given
But you're making a liar out of me

So many things SO HARD to say as you stumble
To take refuge in your offices of shame
As the earth beneath my feet BEGINS to rumble
And your young men die for nothin', not even fame
I say that someday you'll begin to trust us
And that your conscience not been slain by conformity
That you stand up unafraid to believe in justice
But you're making a liar out of me
You're making a liar out of me

Well I can hear the sound of distant thunder
From an open window at the end of every hall
Now that you're gone I got to wonder
If you ever were here at all
I say you never sacrificed my children
To some false god of infidelity
And that it's not the Tower of Babel that you're building
But you're making a liar out of me
You're making a liar out of me
WELL you're making a liar out of me


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 01:44 GMT 
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Anyone besides me unable to help hearing this song without considering the weighty nature of Harvey Weinstein's recent fall from power? There's a whole hell of a lot else going on in this song, and I know it's a totally personal, historically revisionist take on things, but this stanza in particular set my mind to thinking:

Well I say that, that ain't flesh and blood you're drinking
In the wounded empire of your fool's paradise
With a light above your head forever blinking
Turning virgins into merchandise
That you must have been beautiful when you were living
You remind me of some old-time used-to-be
I say you can be trusted with the power you been given
But you're making a liar out of me

Anyhow, I'm just here to empty the trash....


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 03:16 GMT 
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It might be another masterful internal dialog, a little early to say much except "WOW".


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 03:44 GMT 
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Giuseppe Gazerro wrote:
Rather than *Dark Heat* the song which sounds closer, to my ears, is *You Can't Always Get*, Rolling Stones.

That said, it's the umpteenth masterpiece from 70's Dylan.
Were it a new song, I'd rank it his best since Jokerman without any shadow of a doubt.
My Dylan.
I knew it.


It's so close to that Stones song, I'd venture it was one of the reasons he dropped it. Even I can hear the similarity!
Love the song though!


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 03:52 GMT 
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The guitar player is even copying the Stones' licks.

Which somehow makes what is tumbling out of Dylan's mouth all the more amazing to me.


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 05:29 GMT 
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It's amazing how they manage to limit this preview to a small region of this wide world.
And by doing so, turning a blind eye to Bob's biggest market imo.

It's not like we don't fu**ing care! :twisted:


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 05:50 GMT 

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The Bard wrote:
Giuseppe Gazerro wrote:
Rather than *Dark Heat* the song which sounds closer, to my ears, is *You Can't Always Get*, Rolling Stones.

That said, it's the umpteenth masterpiece from 70's Dylan.
Were it a new song, I'd rank it his best since Jokerman without any shadow of a doubt.
My Dylan.
I knew it.


It's so close to that Stones song, I'd venture it was one of the reasons he dropped it. Even I can hear the similarity!
Love the song though!


I said this exact same thing over in SH forum and they deleted my post. Guess they don't like Dylan criticism over there.


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 05:54 GMT 

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Sounds very much like a song in progress. Certainly not a lost masterpiece. Yes, you can hear echoes of You Can't Always Get What You Want but the song is based on a very common two chord progression.


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 06:08 GMT 
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There are some moments of this song that give me the old Dylan tingle. As the earth beneath my feet begins to rumble. .. The phrasing on it is delicious. The song really picks up some steam in the last two verses too. But it does sound like it needed some editing. Some lines really shine but others no so much. And also musically, perhaps a B-section, a bridge...
And agree on the Can't Always Get What You Want feel (with a touch of Dark Heat) sound and have no problem with it.


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 06:49 GMT 
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savemenow wrote:

I said this exact same thing over in SH forum and they deleted my post. Guess they don't like Dylan criticism over there.


Wow ... didnt even realise this would classify as "criticism" ... just an observation. Hardly the first song of Bob's to resemble somebody else's.
Who cares? I love the song!


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 07:53 GMT 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh5FQhbirrc

With all that build-up the song was somewhat of let-down, but it still damn good. I'd love for Bob to develop the song live, I think I faster version could be a classic. As it stands it's too close You Can't Always Get What You Want.
Still glad I've heard it. Bob's voice and delivery was tremendous at this period.

"Turning virgins into merchandise". And the little laughs between verses are glorious.


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 08:12 GMT 
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yopietro wrote:
Verses are a slowed down Where Are You Tonight.


So the mistress claimed


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 09:33 GMT 
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"Making a liar out of me" sounds like "Dark Heat" and "Dark Heat" sounds like "You Can't Always get".


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 10:08 GMT 

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Making a Liar: Gospel Rant

I don't think that Making a Liar Out of Me is directed to any one
person, not even a fictional one. Dylan here employs the same
perspective as he does in Property of Jesus and When You Gonna
Wake Up, Dead Man, and Watered Down Love: he addresses the
unfaithful, apostate 'world' as a person. Hence accusations of sins such
as sacrificing children to false gods, ignoring the orphans and building
the tower of Babel can be levied.

In scripture this was common practice, especially in the Old Testament.
Check Ezkiel 16, Hosea 2 and Jeremiah 2-5 for extended monologues
about the Nation of Israel as a wayward unfaithful wife.

And it's that angle that is picked, in my opinion, in the case of this
particular song. A well known scripture in the New Testament says
'He who does not believe God has made Him a liar'. There are more
bible references that labour on this point ('Let God be true and every
man a liar', among others).

We're still in the hard core Christian phase here, along with about half
of Shot of Love, and the song is full (did I want to say riddled?) with
scripture references. I mention Shot of Love because this is from Oct
1980, and would, if finished and released, have ended up on that album.

Verse 1 'Feet of clay' originated from Daniel 2:33
'Destroyed by your inventions' Dt 28:20 'You will be destroyed because
of the wickedness of your inventions'

Verse 2 The 'promised land', and its conquest and defence are throughout
Old Testament scripture but esoecially in Joshua 1-24.
'sow discord among brothers' Literal quotation of Proverbs 6:19 (he who
soweth discord among brethren')
Remember the cries of the orphans and their mothers Job 29:12 'I saved
the needy who cried and the orphan' Ps 9:12 'He does not forget the cry of
the poor'.

Verse 3 Flesh and blood you're drinking Jn 6:54 'He who eats my flesh and
drinks my blood has eternal life'
Turning virgins into merchendise Nehemiah 5:5 'We are forced to sell our
children as slaves, some of our daughters are already sold off' Joel 3:8
'You have sold your sons and daughters'

Verse 4 Rumbling earth. At least 45 references on the earth trembling, often
as an apocalyptic sign of impending judgment. Hebrews 12:26 'Once more will
I make the earth to tremble'
Stand up unafraid to believe in justice Job 11:14,15 'If you put iniquity away
you will stand firm without fear'.

Verse 5 Sacrificing children to false gods. Unsurprisingly many references here,
mostly to Moloch and Baal. Jer 19:5 'They built altars to Baal to sacrifice their
children to him in the fire' Ex 16:36 'You worshipped disgusting idols and sacrificed
your children as offerings'.
The Tower of Babel is a Bible story found in Genesis 11:1-9. Man started to build
a tower to heaven. God destroyed the tower eventually and confused the language
of the builders, thus causing the phenomenon of multiple languages.

All that to say that there's just too much here. A very obvious reading of Making
a Liar, the most obvious one, is as a prophetic song from God's perspective to and
about the unfaithful earthlings. Let me know what you think.


Last edited by gerardv on Thu October 12th, 2017, 10:38 GMT, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 10:13 GMT 
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anyway, it's from yesterday that this song sounds in my head


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 10:28 GMT 

Joined: Mon March 16th, 2009, 10:46 GMT
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gizeta wrote:
anyway, it's from yesterday that this song sounds in my head


I love the way he sings the title line at the end of the first verse.
That should be a patented ringtone


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PostPosted: Thu October 12th, 2017, 11:19 GMT 

Joined: Fri January 5th, 2007, 23:38 GMT
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Location: Ireland
gerardv wrote:
Making a Liar: Gospel Rant

I don't think that Making a Liar Out of Me is directed to any one
person, not even a fictional one. Dylan here employs the same
perspective as he does in Property of Jesus and When You Gonna
Wake Up, Dead Man, and Watered Down Love: he addresses the
unfaithful, apostate 'world' as a person. Hence accusations of sins such
as sacrificing children to false gods, ignoring the orphans and building
the tower of Babel can be levied.

In scripture this was common practice, especially in the Old Testament.
Check Ezkiel 16, Hosea 2 and Jeremiah 2-5 for extended monologues
about the Nation of Israel as a wayward unfaithful wife.

And it's that angle that is picked, in my opinion, in the case of this
particular song. A well known scripture in the New Testament says
'He who does not believe God has made Him a liar'. There are more
bible references that labour on this point ('Let God be true and every
man a liar', among others).

We're still in the hard core Christian phase here, along with about half
of Shot of Love, and the song is full (did I want to say riddled?) with
scripture references. I mention Shot of Love because this is from Oct
1980, and would, if finished and released, have ended up on that album.

Verse 1 'Feet of clay' originated from Daniel 2:33
'Destroyed by your inventions' Dt 28:20 'You will be destroyed because
of the wickedness of your inventions'

Verse 2 The 'promised land', and its conquest and defence are throughout
Old Testament scripture but esoecially in Joshua 1-24.
'sow discord among brothers' Literal quotation of Proverbs 6:19 (he who
soweth discord among brethren')
Remember the cries of the orphans and their mothers Job 29:12 'I saved
the needy who cried and the orphan' Ps 9:12 'He does not forget the cry of
the poor'.

Verse 3 Flesh and blood you're drinking Jn 6:54 'He who eats my flesh and
drinks my blood has eternal life'
Turning virgins into merchendise Nehemiah 5:5 'We are forced to sell our
children as slaves, some of our daughters are already sold off' Joel 3:8
'You have sold your sons and daughters'

Verse 4 Rumbling earth. At least 45 references on the earth trembling, often
as an apocalyptic sign of impending judgment. Hebrews 12:26 'Once more will
I make the earth to tremble'
Stand up unafraid to believe in justice Job 11:14,15 'If you put iniquity away
you will stand firm without fear'.

Verse 5 Sacrificing children to false gods. Unsurprisingly many references here,
mostly to Moloch and Baal. Jer 19:5 'They built altars to Baal to sacrifice their
children to him in the fire' Ex 16:36 'You worshipped disgusting idols and sacrificed
your children as offerings'.
The Tower of Babel is a Bible story found in Genesis 11:1-9. Man started to build
a tower to heaven. God destroyed the tower eventually and confused the language
of the builders, thus causing the phenomenon of multiple languages.

All that to say that there's just too much here. A very obvious reading of Making
a Liar, the most obvious one, is as a prophetic song from God's perspective to and
about the unfaithful earthlings. Let me know what you think.


I don't want to hear this song until I get my own copy of the box-set, but it seems a really major one. That last verse seems a stunning excoriation of the modern idols of convenience.

Thanks for your analysis.


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