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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 16:47 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 7th, 2004, 18:31 GMT
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Gotta Serve Somebody is at least as interesting as Maggie's Farm or any of the hundreds of blues template, paint by numbers Dylan songs from the 60's

In the Garden is one of the most harmonically complex songs Dylan ever wrote and he stands by it as an overlooked gem

I Believe in You, and Precious Angel are as good as any three chord Dylan love song.

Covenant Woman is gorgeous as is What Can I Do For You

Ain't Gonna Go to Hell For Anyone is a fantastic tune.

Solid Rock, Slow Train, and Saved rock harder than even most sixties Dylan tunes.

Every Grain of Sand, Caribbean Wind, and Angelina are stunning.

I would say that all of these songs are among his best work ever and it is very much the subject matter that turns off his liberal intelligentsia fans. Had any of the above been recorded in the sixties with different lyrics, people here would fall all over themselves praising them.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 16:59 GMT 
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slimtimslide wrote:
If the mystery and beauty of god's work as seen in the narration of 'Clothes Line Saga' eludes people, and they feel some song on 'Saved' or whatever is somehow 'better' or more profound, so be it, but I think they are wrong and I think they are missing the essence.

The performances are an entirely different matter. I, for one, adore some of the great blues spiritually based songs and much gospel music - as music and as performance - regardless of any personal views about god or his/her/its various supposed Messiahs, and I look at Bob's performances during this period in that light; they either connect or they don't.

My karma ran over your dogma.

This release highlights a period of fantastic intensity and engagement with his music and the audience on Dylan's part. He stood toe to toe with the world world and put it out there whatever the cost. And as has been typical during his career, some of the best songs did not find official release (until this). Though readily available in bootleg form, the release of Cover Down, Pray Through and several other songs that have not yet made it to vinyl is going to be a treasure. Dylan's performances were passionate and I am looking forward to this more than any release since Tempest.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 16:59 GMT 

Joined: Sat August 5th, 2006, 11:56 GMT
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toilandblood546 wrote:
Gotta Serve Somebody is at least as interesting as Maggie's Farm or any of the hundreds of blues template, paint by numbers Dylan songs from the 60's
.


Oops! If you think Maggie's Farm is a 'paint by numbers' song then you are not qualified to judge. Game over. Thank you for playing.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 17:11 GMT 
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gerardv wrote:
Giuseppe Gazerro wrote:
At least:

I Believe In You
Every Grain Of Sand
Caribbean Wind
Angelina


Precious Angel
Slow Train
honorary mention: Groom's Still Waiting


Slow Train, yes!
I forgot to put it in the list.

I totally agree on Precious Angel, though in this case the inclusion is a subjective matter; I understand it's not *objectively* a masterpiece - for the lyrics, if nothing else... - as it is, instead, Every Grain Of Sand, for instance.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 17:21 GMT 

Joined: Tue June 21st, 2016, 17:01 GMT
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toilandblood546 wrote:

I would say that all of these songs are among his best work ever and it is very much the subject matter that turns off his liberal intelligentsia fans. Had any of the above been recorded in the sixties with different lyrics, people here would fall all over themselves praising them.


So in other words, if these songs that people don't like had lyrics like the songs that they do like, they'd like these songs too. That's probably true, but it's not very helpful. Try it the other way around--in the sixties, if he'd sung "Hey, Mr. Jesus Man, smite my enemies"--the same tune you know, just different lyrics--do you think anyone would be falling over themselves praising that?


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 17:27 GMT 

Joined: Mon March 16th, 2009, 10:46 GMT
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slimtimslide wrote:
Wot he said. (Jim B, two posts up)
Most (not all, but most) great songwriting comes not from a sense of certainty but of doubt. Fewer songs are written about found love than lost love, far fewer good songs are written about abiding faith than questioning god, and very few good songs come from a position of dogma.

Regardless of whether one agrees, or not, with the messianic fervour of Bob's position during this period - which, in itself, seems to have shifted over time - I don't think there are any songs which merit the title 'masterpiece'. (...) The bottom line is that Bob is a songwriter (and performer) and during this period he didn't write that many enduring songs


I think that the thesis that great songwriting comes not from a sense of certainty is merely a half-truth. I agree that some of Dylan's 1979-1981 work is substandard. However, if you look at music historically, a staggering volume of the very best in music has been devotional in nature, from Handel to Bach and from Mozart to Schubert and Mahler. Many of these works contain choruses and arias that structurally are songs.

Beyond that, if you look at devotional songs written by Katherine von Schlegel, Charles Wesley, John Newton, together with more contemporary examples such as Thomas Dorsey, and other writers in the negro spiritual tradition, you are looking at work that is continually performed and heard all over the world, as well as work that consistently inspires and moves people, from generation to generation.

The best devotional music is so pervasive because it deals with feelings of despair, doubt, uncertainty, angst and insecurity and couples them with faith. A good deal of Dylan's christian work lies squarely within that tradition, especially in Slow Train Coming and Shot of Love. We see self doubt & loathing in When He Returns, isolation in I Believe In You, depression in Slow Train and compromise, guilt and fear in Shot of Love, to name just a few examples.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 17:34 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 7th, 2004, 18:31 GMT
Posts: 408
FieldingMellish wrote:
toilandblood546 wrote:
Gotta Serve Somebody is at least as interesting as Maggie's Farm or any of the hundreds of blues template, paint by numbers Dylan songs from the 60's
.


Oops! If you think Maggie's Farm is a 'paint by numbers' song then you are not qualified to judge. Game over. Thank you for playing.


It has one chord change per verse. It's very very pedestrian musically


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 17:37 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 7th, 2004, 18:31 GMT
Posts: 408
mojofilter wrote:
toilandblood546 wrote:

I would say that all of these songs are among his best work ever and it is very much the subject matter that turns off his liberal intelligentsia fans. Had any of the above been recorded in the sixties with different lyrics, people here would fall all over themselves praising them.


So in other words, if these songs that people don't like had lyrics like the songs that they do like, they'd like these songs too. That's probably true, but it's not very helpful. Try it the other way around--in the sixties, if he'd sung "Hey, Mr. Jesus Man, smite my enemies"--the same tune you know, just different lyrics--do you think anyone would be falling over themselves praising that?



Because for people who are believers, and some who aren't, the gospel songs are more moving than any surrealistic sixties hippie tunes. We are talking about which gospel songs are among Dylan's best ever, and musically a lot of them are. We just let our personal biases cloud our judgment.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 17:48 GMT 
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toilandblood546 wrote:
Gotta Serve Somebody is at least as interesting as Maggie's Farm or any of the hundreds of blues template, paint by numbers Dylan songs from the 60's

In the Garden is one of the most harmonically complex songs Dylan ever wrote and he stands by it as an overlooked gem

I Believe in You, and Precious Angel are as good as any three chord Dylan love song.

Covenant Woman is gorgeous as is What Can I Do For You

Ain't Gonna Go to Hell For Anyone is a fantastic tune.

Solid Rock, Slow Train, and Saved rock harder than even most sixties Dylan tunes.

Every Grain of Sand, Caribbean Wind, and Angelina are stunning.

I would say that all of these songs are among his best work ever and it is very much the subject matter that turns off his liberal intelligentsia fans. Had any of the above been recorded in the sixties with different lyrics, people here would fall all over themselves praising them.


It's hard not to disagree with just about everything in this post. Where to begin. Say there are 3 elements to a recorded original song. Lyrics, performance, and the music. You are saying off the bat to trade out Dylan's born-again lyrics for different lyrics to see how good the songs are. As if the lyrics themselves are not essential to Dylan, the man owing a great deal of his name and fame in the world to his incomparable lyrics. So listeners are supposed to disregard the pedantic, proselytizing, "you may hate me for my faith but you're going to hell and I'm not not" lyrics of this evangelical period?? Sadly, it's like Bob Dylan's consciousness got lower in significant ways with his conversion and much of what he preaches on these albums. It's hard to hear. And don't give us any nonsense that it's just liberal bias about religious/spiritual songs. Leonard Cohen wrote and sang many songs to and about God. He just wrote them with a much more nuanced, palatable, and openhearted spiritual vision.
Now, with regard to performance on these born-again albums. Dylan obviously blew a gasket out in his voice somewhere around 1978 and his voice on Street-Legal and the '78 tour had obviously degraded from Desire and RTR. So off the bat, the vocal performances we get on these born-again songs are thinner, pinched, rougher and with less vocal control than he possessed a few years back. The sound of Dylan's voice on these born-again records is inferior to peak Dylan.
Now lastly, lyrics and voice aside, with the music...the trilogy has a few nice moments...but to say these songs are as good as anything Dylan has written in the past?? "I Believe in You and Precious Angel are as good as any 3-chord Dylan love song" Aside from the fact that I Believe in You and Precious Angel are not even 3-chord songs, this is quite a delusional statement considering the catalogue of "love songs" that Dylan produced from 1963-1975...
And as far as the "paint-by-numbers blues songs," unless you're Jimmy Swaggart, in what world is Gotta Serve Somebody as interesting as Tombstone Blues, Maggie's Farm, She Belongs to Me, Leopard-Skin Pillbox Hat??

Not to say there aren't a few nice songs put out by Dylan in this period. But the phase is really a step backward from where he had been as a songwriter and singer. There's been a rumor going around for years that Dylan actually shook off his mortal coil in late 1976 and his DNA was used to create a replicant Dylan. Sadly, it's a glitchy, imperfect process, as we've been seeing ever since...


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 18:16 GMT 

Joined: Wed October 22nd, 2008, 14:12 GMT
Posts: 55
gerardv wrote:
Here an unknown rehearsal of Every Grain of Sand
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/mu ... story.html


Could anyone upload that on youtube or somewhere else where we outside the US could listen to it? When I go to the LA Times site I just wait forever and nothing plays.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 18:26 GMT 
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gerardv wrote:
Giuseppe Gazerro wrote:
At least:

I Believe In You
Every Grain Of Sand
Caribbean Wind
Angelina


Precious Angel
Slow Train


Lenny Bruce
Is your love is vain
When he returns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CTHkmw ... ata_player


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 19:03 GMT 
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gerardv wrote:
Here an unknown rehearsal of Every Grain of Sand
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/mu ... story.html

absolutely beautiful, thanks for the link

this track was recorded only three days after the publishing demo for Special Rider Music with the dog barking, released on the 5LP set of the first bootleg series installment, more than 26 and a half years ago

how anyone can knock the release of this pristine early recording of his finest lyrics, which he had only just written that summer, is beyond me

[whoever prefers that this gem should have stayed in the vault, has the option not to listen to it again, and to pretend it was never released]

----------------------------------------------------

And here is a small part of the end from the Dave Herman interview from July 2, 1981:

Herman: There's a song on Shot Of Love, Every Grain Of Sand, which is about as a healing song as I ever heard from you. It's a beautiful, beautiful song.

Dylan: Oh, yeah, I wrote that last summer.

Herman: Is that what you mean by hopefully healing music?

Dylan: I would hope so.

----------------------------------------------------


Last edited by notdarkyet on Wed October 18th, 2017, 19:12 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 19:12 GMT 

Joined: Tue June 21st, 2016, 17:01 GMT
Posts: 206
toilandblood546 wrote:
Because for people who are believers, and some who aren't, the gospel songs are more moving than any surrealistic sixties hippie tunes. We are talking about which gospel songs are among Dylan's best ever, and musically a lot of them are. We just let our personal biases cloud our judgment.


Well, sure. A lot of people don't like the gospel songs because they don't like what they're about. That's too bad. They're missing some great stuff. But that's kind of how it works, isn't it? People want to listen to music that speaks to them in some way. "Personal bias" is just another way of saying "personal taste." Your believers aren't moved because these are such great songs, necessarily; they're moved because they like what the songs are telling them and because they like the music. The same way the hippies and "liberal intelligentsia" you sneer at are moved by songs that connect with them. I know we should all expand our horizons, venture into the great big world of wonderful music, discover things we never thought we'd like, etc., etc. But in the end, if people don't enjoy being preached at, you can't tell them they should enjoy it because "In the Garden" has such an amazing chord progression. There are enough amazing chord progressions out there. I knew a music critic who told me I should forget that Willis Alan Ramsey's "Muskrat Candlelight"--aka "Muskrat Love"--is about muskrats and just listen to how gorgeous it is. I said why, when there are so many gorgeous songs that aren't about muskrats?


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 19:18 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 7th, 2004, 18:31 GMT
Posts: 408
yopietro wrote:
toilandblood546 wrote:
Gotta Serve Somebody is at least as interesting as Maggie's Farm or any of the hundreds of blues template, paint by numbers Dylan songs from the 60's

In the Garden is one of the most harmonically complex songs Dylan ever wrote and he stands by it as an overlooked gem

I Believe in You, and Precious Angel are as good as any three chord Dylan love song.

Covenant Woman is gorgeous as is What Can I Do For You

Ain't Gonna Go to Hell For Anyone is a fantastic tune.

Solid Rock, Slow Train, and Saved rock harder than even most sixties Dylan tunes.

Every Grain of Sand, Caribbean Wind, and Angelina are stunning.

I would say that all of these songs are among his best work ever and it is very much the subject matter that turns off his liberal intelligentsia fans. Had any of the above been recorded in the sixties with different lyrics, people here would fall all over themselves praising them.


It's hard not to disagree with just about everything in this post. Where to begin. Say there are 3 elements to a recorded original song. Lyrics, performance, and the music. You are saying off the bat to trade out Dylan's born-again lyrics for different lyrics to see how good the songs are. As if the lyrics themselves are not essential to Dylan, the man owing a great deal of his name and fame in the world to his incomparable lyrics. So listeners are supposed to disregard the pedantic, proselytizing, "you may hate me for my faith but you're going to hell and I'm not not" lyrics of this evangelical period?? Sadly, it's like Bob Dylan's consciousness got lower in significant ways with his conversion and much of what he preaches on these albums. It's hard to hear. And don't give us any nonsense that it's just liberal bias about religious/spiritual songs. Leonard Cohen wrote and sang many songs to and about God. He just wrote them with a much more nuanced, palatable, and openhearted spiritual vision.
Now, with regard to performance on these born-again albums. Dylan obviously blew a gasket out in his voice somewhere around 1978 and his voice on Street-Legal and the '78 tour had obviously degraded from Desire and RTR. So off the bat, the vocal performances we get on these born-again songs are thinner, pinched, rougher and with less vocal control than he possessed a few years back. The sound of Dylan's voice on these born-again records is inferior to peak Dylan.
Now lastly, lyrics and voice aside, with the music...the trilogy has a few nice moments...but to say these songs are as good as anything Dylan has written in the past?? "I Believe in You and Precious Angel are as good as any 3-chord Dylan love song" Aside from the fact that I Believe in You and Precious Angel are not even 3-chord songs, this is quite a delusional statement considering the catalogue of "love songs" that Dylan produced from 1963-1975...
And as far as the "paint-by-numbers blues songs," unless you're Jimmy Swaggart, in what world is Gotta Serve Somebody as interesting as Tombstone Blues, Maggie's Farm, She Belongs to Me, Leopard-Skin Pillbox Hat??

Not to say there aren't a few nice songs put out by Dylan in this period. But the phase is really a step backward from where he had been as a songwriter and singer. There's been a rumor going around for years that Dylan actually shook off his mortal coil in late 1976 and his DNA was used to create a replicant Dylan. Sadly, it's a glitchy, imperfect process, as we've been seeing ever since...



I would say that to the majority of the population, the surrealistic, endless lyrics of Tombstone Blues are a tremendous bore. As is the two chord, unmelodic tune. The same could be said about a lot of his sixties output. We, as Dylan fans, feel otherwise, but to the majority of music lovers, Dylan has always been pretentious and unable to carry a tune. So this is all subjective. Folk songs like It Ain't Me Babe and Don't Think Twice are not only NOT that melodically interesting, they are not even that original. I am playing Devils Advocate here to a certain extent, but the idea that Dylan's sixties output is an ethereal body of work that is untouchable has never struck me as true. His gospel tunes are more lyrically direct, but the language is right out of the Bible. And I do think that Cohen's direct songs to God are comparably direct. A song like Hallelujah is more in the vein of Shot of Love songs like Caribbean Wind that is somewhat about God but also about much more than that.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 19:37 GMT 
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The version of EGOS is stunningly good. One the level of the album version.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 21:15 GMT 
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moonpeeler wrote:
gerardv wrote:
Here an unknown rehearsal of Every Grain of Sand
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/mu ... story.html


Could anyone upload that on youtube or somewhere else where we outside the US could listen to it? When I go to the LA Times site I just wait forever and nothing plays.


Worked fine for me in the UK.


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PostPosted: Wed October 18th, 2017, 21:33 GMT 
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Great Era.
I like how he constructs his lyrics and the way he passionately delivers them in this period.
Pressin’ On, case in point.

“What kinda sign ya need? When it all comes from within?”

I’m not a bible thumper & don’t feel like I’m being made to become one when I listen.
It’s just good stuff with a nice Bob/Gospel twist.

Bob is on and not everyone gets it.
And that’s ok.

“I was blinded by the devil, born already ruined...”


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PostPosted: Thu October 19th, 2017, 00:03 GMT 
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Yes, great songs. Still hoping for some of them this tour, ie tonight


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Thu October 19th, 2017, 03:40 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 7th, 2004, 18:31 GMT
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I would also add that Christopher Ricks' book has an excellent couple of chapters on the lyrics of Gotta Serve Somebody and What Can I Do For You? which make great arguments showing how deceivingly complex the lyrics to those songs really are. Direct lyrics can sometimes be the best as all the great country and blues songwriters knew. Wordy Dylan is great, but songs like Stuck Inside of Mobile are missing an emotional core because of their surrealism.


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PostPosted: Thu October 19th, 2017, 05:58 GMT 

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toilandblood546 wrote:
I would also add that Christopher Ricks' book has an excellent couple of chapters on the lyrics of Gotta Serve Somebody and What Can I Do For You? which make great arguments showing how deceivingly complex the lyrics to those songs really are. Direct lyrics can sometimes be the best as all the great country and blues songwriters knew. Wordy Dylan is great, but songs like Stuck Inside of Mobile are missing an emotional core because of their surrealism.


All the great country and blues songwriters knew how to write 'double entendre' lyrics, not only direct lyrics, didn't they?
For example, Fourth Time Around is an emotional song (to me at least) and its lyrics are not direct, I could've picked many more Bob Dylan songs.


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PostPosted: Thu October 19th, 2017, 08:32 GMT 
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Isn't the real problem with Dylan's 'Born Again' period the fact that it's horrible to experience - the sight and sound of a coke-emptied intellect declaiming the views of his brainwashers is distressing to witness.

For me, there is no joy to be derived from another person's madness.


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PostPosted: Thu October 19th, 2017, 08:35 GMT 
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The rehearsal version of Every Grain Of Sand is stunningly good, better than the "Barking Dog" version for mine although I still like the released album version best.


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PostPosted: Thu October 19th, 2017, 08:43 GMT 

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toilandblood546 wrote:
FieldingMellish wrote:
Gotta Serve Somebody is at least as interesting as Maggie's Farm or any of the hundreds of blues template, paint by numbers Dylan songs from the 60's


Oops! If you think Maggie's Farm is a 'paint by numbers' song then you are not qualified to judge. Game over. Thank you for playing.


It has one chord change per verse. It's very very pedestrian musically


Analysing Dylan's songs in that manner is *completely* missing the point. Maybe you should be listening to Ed Sheeran instead?


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PostPosted: Thu October 19th, 2017, 09:43 GMT 
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Late posting about this, but I'm pretty excited.

This was the bootleg I was waiting for to be honest. Part of me had hoped they were gonna go in a different direction - yeah more studio cuts, or a live album with more of the weird stuff left in. I felt that the time had come to re-define and rescue how the gospel era is commonly perceived - something Another Self Portrait managed - but it doesn't look like they really wanted to go down that road here. Dylan wouldn't be Dylan if these releases didn't continue to frustrate and confound, in some ways, so it is oddly relaxing.

On the one hand, this feels like a missed opportunity, a big one. On the other hand, we're getting new material from a great period, and you can't sniff too much at some of this music.

As it is, it is gonna be a great set, just not definitive. I'm pretty frustrated with how the deluxe set is structured, to be honest, but that is neither here nor there. It feels like even if I did pay more to get the stuff I wanted, it'd be too spread out across nine discs to make good listening. I definitely prefer the BS releases that don't go down this super-baggy route. I'm just gonna get the regular CD edition, and'll have to stick to streaming the bigger set. But I'm sure the CDs will be cherished, and'll get as much play as the Thunder set.


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PostPosted: Thu October 19th, 2017, 10:21 GMT 
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littlemaggie wrote:
Isn't the real problem with Dylan's 'Born Again' period the fact that it's horrible to experience - the sight and sound of a coke-emptied intellect declaiming the views of his brainwashers is distressing to witness.

For me, there is no joy to be derived from another person's madness.


Yep. Gotta Swerve Some Bobby


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