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PostPosted: Fri September 29th, 2017, 18:35 GMT 

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Anr Bjotk wrote:
Mickvet wrote:

Maybe it's these 'contemporary views of cultural relativism' that are the culprits, they're terrible things alright, but my reading of Paul Williams is of one of the warmest, most subjective, most personal Dylan writers I've ever come across, the diametrical opposite of what you describe. We might both be wrong, but we certainly can't both be right, cultural relativism or not.



Warmest? Maybe I need to re-read him... I feel like even the typesetting (spacing and whatnot) and graphic design scream academic twaddle. But maybe I'm wrong about Williams.
What I do know is that Heylin has written some of the most engrossing, educated and historically important texts about Bob.

I would really (I'm serious) like some specific things about Heylin's writing that is so awful.


I've no problem with Heylin's writings. I find him very well-informed, readable and balanced. He has a reputation for not suffering fools gladly-I don't really see that as a negative.

I think you must be mixing Paul Williams up with someone else. 'Academic' is not a word I would apply to him. The main criticism of him, I would have, is that he tended to be enthusiastic to a fault. But he really, really loved Dylan and was very perceptive of his greatness.


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PostPosted: Fri September 29th, 2017, 18:39 GMT 
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Mickvet wrote:

I've no problem with Heylin's writings. I find him very well-informed, readable and balanced. He has a reputation for not suffering fools gladly-I don't really see that as a negative.

I think you must be mixing Paul Williams up with someone else. 'Academic' is not a word I would apply to him. The main criticism of him, I would have, is that he tended to be enthusiastic to a fault. But he really, really loved Dylan and was very perceptive of his greatness.


Guess I'll have to dig out his books. :)


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PostPosted: Fri September 29th, 2017, 18:52 GMT 

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Watching The River Flow

Bob Dylan, Performing Artist, Vols. 1&2

Bob Dylan, Mind Out of Time (=Performing Artist Vol. 3).

Williams was struggling a bit by the last volume because of the effects of his unfortunate accident. So it isn't as good as the others.


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PostPosted: Fri September 29th, 2017, 19:27 GMT 

Joined: Tue September 30th, 2008, 23:50 GMT
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Anr Bjotk wrote:
Mickvet wrote:

I've no problem with Heylin's writings. I find him very well-informed, readable and balanced. He has a reputation for not suffering fools gladly-I don't really see that as a negative.

I think you must be mixing Paul Williams up with someone else. 'Academic' is not a word I would apply to him. The main criticism of him, I would have, is that he tended to be enthusiastic to a fault. But he really, really loved Dylan and was very perceptive of his greatness.


Guess I'll have to dig out his books. :)



Yes, Paul Williams never wrote with any academic pretensions. He was an unabashed Dylan fan, and wrote his books primarily from the perspective of a fan. He could occasionally seem over-gushing in his praise, but I found his books to be a valuable resource when I was just getting started in collecting live Dylan.

Clinton Heylin, on the other hand, does have academic pretensions, at least he did when I was reading his books (I haven't read any of his books in the past 15-20 years so maybe he has changed). These pretensions sometimes seem to result in unsubtle jabs at other Dylan writers/scholars. He seemed to get particularly upset that Michael Kroggsgaard, rather than he, was given access to the Dylan vaults and recording logs back in the mid-90's. I seem to recall him complaining about Dylan/Sony inviting "lesser Dylan scholars" to review the tapes - maybe in his own book on the Dylan recording sessions, I'll have to dig it out and see. I also seem to remember him harshly criticizing the first Bootleg Series release in one of his books; writing about it as if it had been compiled by total incompetents. It seemed overly critical to me.


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PostPosted: Fri September 29th, 2017, 19:32 GMT 
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Anyone in NYC interested in attending the sold out Movie Premiere on Monday Night 10/2, 9pm Lincoln Center, I have an extra pair of tickets - $25/each face value

- DM Me (First come...)


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PostPosted: Fri September 29th, 2017, 20:51 GMT 

Joined: Fri September 29th, 2017, 20:47 GMT
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I'm going to college here and thought it'd be a good idea to go see Trouble No More at the NY Film Festival. Excited to see that previously unseen Dylan footage.


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PostPosted: Fri September 29th, 2017, 22:06 GMT 
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Anr Bjotk wrote:
Mickvet wrote:

Maybe it's these 'contemporary views of cultural relativism' that are the culprits, they're terrible things alright, but my reading of Paul Williams is of one of the warmest, most subjective, most personal Dylan writers I've ever come across, the diametrical opposite of what you describe. We might both be wrong, but we certainly can't both be right, cultural relativism or not.



Warmest? Maybe I need to re-read him... I feel like even the typesetting (spacing and whatnot) and graphic design scream academic twaddle. But maybe I'm wrong about Williams.
What I do know is that Heylin has written some of the most engrossing, educated and historically important texts about Bob.

I would really (I'm serious) like some specific things about Heylin's writing that is so awful.



Just sit down with any of Heylin's books written in the last decade and count the mistakes.


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 01:46 GMT 
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I like Heylin's writing but he can be extremely opinionated which comes across as more than a little smug. I can't think of them offhand but I know he's desecrated specific performances (that I love) with dismissals so offhanded, yet so off the mark, that I wanted to reach through the page and physically strike him. He has also praised things I don't see as being special. The difference of opinion is fine, but the combination of mean-spiritedness and overconfidence is a stain on his otherwise fine writing. He can also be uncharitable towards other writers.

It hasn't bothered me enough to stop me from buying a fair number of his books, though.


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 10:58 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
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saturn.de has a special "get 3 pay for 2"-promotion this weekend. And it works with Trouble No More. I just ordered three copies for just 270 euros


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 12:04 GMT 
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slewan wrote:
saturn.de has a special "get 3 pay for 2"-promotion this weekend. And it works with Trouble No More. I just ordered three copies for just 270 euros


Not bad. I could do that. Anybody wanna share?


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 12:18 GMT 
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I finally decided to order the 8CD deluxe set, albeit not from bobdylan.com - so no additional bonus content for me. But the price + shipping there is just too expensive for me.

I'm especially looking forward to the two recordings of Caribbean Wind, the live debut of Every Grain Of Sand, Precious Angel (live) and the two versions of The Groom's Still Waiting At The Altar.
I'm a little bit disappointed that the original studio cut of Heart Of Mine isn't included, though.

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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 13:45 GMT 

Joined: Sat August 5th, 2006, 11:56 GMT
Posts: 383
Anr Bjotk wrote:
I'll probably never understand the hatred twards Heylin. I cannot think of a single bad thing about him. Informed, well-written, clearly a fanboy and clearly well-connected. As for the smugness, I have never come across it. Could you be specific?


Are you being ironic?


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 15:05 GMT 

Joined: Fri May 1st, 2009, 16:35 GMT
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slewan wrote:
saturn.de has a special "get 3 pay for 2"-promotion this weekend. And it works with Trouble No More. I just ordered three copies for just 270 euros


Same promotion on Amazon DE.


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 15:26 GMT 
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DCB wrote:

Yes, Paul Williams never wrote with any academic pretensions. He was an unabashed Dylan fan, and wrote his books primarily from the perspective of a fan. He could occasionally seem over-gushing in his praise, but I found his books to be a valuable resource when I was just getting started in collecting live Dylan.

Clinton Heylin, on the other hand, does have academic pretensions, at least he did when I was reading his books (I haven't read any of his books in the past 15-20 years so maybe he has changed). These pretensions sometimes seem to result in unsubtle jabs at other Dylan writers/scholars. He seemed to get particularly upset that Michael Kroggsgaard, rather than he, was given access to the Dylan vaults and recording logs back in the mid-90's. I seem to recall him complaining about Dylan/Sony inviting "lesser Dylan scholars" to review the tapes - maybe in his own book on the Dylan recording sessions, I'll have to dig it out and see. I also seem to remember him harshly criticizing the first Bootleg Series release in one of his books; writing about it as if it had been compiled by total incompetents. It seemed overly critical to me.


I'd be pretty upset too if I wrote one of the better known books on Dylan and wasn't invited to the vaults. I've never even heard of Michael Kroggsgaard...


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 16:00 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
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four-armed phone wrote:
slewan wrote:
saturn.de has a special "get 3 pay for 2"-promotion this weekend. And it works with Trouble No More. I just ordered three copies for just 270 euros


Same promotion on Amazon DE.


where? I can't find/see it…


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 16:50 GMT 

Joined: Fri January 5th, 2007, 23:38 GMT
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Location: Ireland
Reverting to the subject of books, I'm about half-way through Scott Marshall's 'Bob Dylan, A Spiritual Life'.

To me it's excellent; very detailed, to the point, with minimal authorial intrusion, seems well researched and documented, with plentiful references.

I find it a good lead-in to the upcoming box-set, giving me a broader sense of Dylan's frame-of-mind.


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 17:01 GMT 

Joined: Sat October 3rd, 2009, 13:47 GMT
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Johanna Parker wrote:
slewan wrote:
saturn.de has a special "get 3 pay for 2"-promotion this weekend. And it works with Trouble No More. I just ordered three copies for just 270 euros


Not bad. I could do that. Anybody wanna share?


saturn.de:

3 FÜR 2 FILM UND MUSIK AKTION

* Wählen Sie aus unserer "3 für 2 Film und Musik Aktion“ drei Titel aus und Sie erhalten den günstigsten Artikel kostenlos dazu. So geht’s: Einfach die gewünschten Artikel auswählen und in den Warenkorb legen. Der Rabatt wird beim Checkout automatisch vom Gesamtpreis abgezogen. Rückgabe online nur wenn alle drei Titel zusammen zurückgegeben werden. Gewährleistungsansprüche bleiben hiervon unberührt. Abgabe nur in haushaltsüblichen Mengen. Irrtümer und technische Änderungen vorbehalten.

An der Aktion nehmen alle Film- & Musiktitel mit Erscheinungsdatum bis 03.10.2017 teil.

Aktion gültig vom 26.09. 20:00 Uhr - 03.10.2017 23:59 Uhr


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 18:37 GMT 

Joined: Fri May 1st, 2009, 16:35 GMT
Posts: 44
Same promotion on Amazon DE.[/quote]

where? I can't find/see it…[/quote]


Here's the link; don't know if Trouble No More is eligible, but a looot of Dylan is.

https://www.amazon.de/b/ref=amb_link_1? ... B00NVHRB4W


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 19:47 GMT 

Joined: Tue November 7th, 2006, 15:14 GMT
Posts: 3022
four-armed phone wrote:
Same promotion on Amazon DE.


where? I can't find/see it…[/quote]


Here's the link; don't know if Trouble No More is eligible, but a looot of Dylan is.

https://www.amazon.de/b/ref=amb_link_1? ... B00NVHRB4W[/quote]

a lot of stuff is excluded from the amazon offer: Trouble No More, for example. But also the new Rolling Stones release (Sticky Fingers Live at the Fonda)


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 20:27 GMT 

Joined: Mon November 21st, 2016, 23:02 GMT
Posts: 10
dpam wrote:
Anyone in NYC interested in attending the sold out Movie Premiere on Monday Night 10/2, 9pm Lincoln Center, I have an extra pair of tickets - $25/each face value

- DM Me (First come...)


hey I would love to get these tickets from ya but i don't have messaging privileges yet. if anyone can message on my behalf and let dpam know that I'm interested I would super appreciate it. Otherwise I hope this gets noticed!


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 22:36 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
I like Heylin's writing but he can be extremely opinionated which comes across as more than a little smug. I can't think of them offhand but I know he's desecrated specific performances (that I love) with dismissals so offhanded, yet so off the mark, that I wanted to reach through the page and physically strike him. He has also praised things I don't see as being special. The difference of opinion is fine, but the combination of mean-spiritedness and overconfidence is a stain on his otherwise fine writing. He can also be uncharitable towards other writers.

It hasn't bothered me enough to stop me from buying a fair number of his books, though.


Pretty much this.

I enjoyed—for the most part—the 2 volume set that covered the songs—until about 1997 on when he turned into a Dickensian curmudgeon.


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PostPosted: Sun October 1st, 2017, 12:21 GMT 
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John B. Stetson wrote:
smoke wrote:
I like Heylin's writing but he can be extremely opinionated which comes across as more than a little smug. I can't think of them offhand but I know he's desecrated specific performances (that I love) with dismissals so offhanded, yet so off the mark, that I wanted to reach through the page and physically strike him. He has also praised things I don't see as being special. The difference of opinion is fine, but the combination of mean-spiritedness and overconfidence is a stain on his otherwise fine writing. He can also be uncharitable towards other writers.

It hasn't bothered me enough to stop me from buying a fair number of his books, though.


Pretty much this.

I enjoyed—for the most part—the 2 volume set that covered the songs—until about 1997 on when he turned into a Dickensian curmudgeon.
Seconded. Heylin is very critical about Dylan's output since 1997, sometimes too critical (in my opinion), especially when it comes to TOOM and L&T. The way he dismisses Cold Irons Bound and Love Sick.. Wow.

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PostPosted: Sun October 1st, 2017, 12:57 GMT 

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depp91 wrote:
John B. Stetson wrote:
I enjoyed—for the most part—the 2 volume set that covered the songs—until about 1997 on when he turned into a Dickensian curmudgeon.
Seconded. Heylin is very critical about Dylan's output since 1997, sometimes too critical (in my opinion), especially when it comes to TOOM and L&T. The way he dismisses Cold Irons Bound and Love Sick.. Wow.

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Heylin would be a great man to have on your team for a Bob Dylan pub quiz. He knows the price of every Dylan song, and the value of none. He's been a tenacious researcher, but as a critic, as an arbiter of taste, he is a total washout.


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PostPosted: Sun October 1st, 2017, 13:34 GMT 

Joined: Thu September 19th, 2013, 18:24 GMT
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The main thing about Heylin is he is actually not a very good writer, as a stylist. Very bland; readably workmanlike, at best. His opinions are occasionally annoying, but they are worse when coupled with his prose, which lacks verve. He is informative though.


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PostPosted: Sun October 1st, 2017, 14:57 GMT 

Joined: Sat December 27th, 2014, 12:09 GMT
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yolacrary wrote:
The main thing about Heylin is he is actually not a very good writer, as a stylist. Very bland; readably workmanlike, at best. His opinions are occasionally annoying, but they are worse when coupled with his prose, which lacks verve. He is informative though.


Here's a quote from political biographer and MP Giles Radice about Roy Jenkins's biography of Churchill. ' Roy is thoroughly enjoying writing it and likes and admires his hero (which really is essential for a biographer).'

Does Heylin like and admire his subject? I have my doubts.


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