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PostPosted: Fri November 24th, 2017, 08:35 GMT 

Joined: Tue December 30th, 2008, 09:05 GMT
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kaleidosc0pe wrote:
mjmooney wrote:
Anybody else have misplaying issues with their set? My disc 4 (the best of the nine, imo) skips in several places, and is going back to Amazon UK for replacement. Hoping this is just an isolated case, and not an issue on a whole production run.


Me too... Disc 4 track 2 is not playing . Haven't listened to all the tracks yet, I hope it's the only one that won't play. :cry:


Have to say I contacted Sandbag and I had replacement disc within 24 hrs.


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PostPosted: Fri November 24th, 2017, 11:04 GMT 

Joined: Tue January 6th, 2015, 15:03 GMT
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bobfan wrote:
kaleidosc0pe wrote:
[quote="mjmooney"]Anybody else have misplaying issues with their set? My disc 4 (the best of the nine, imo) skips in several places, and is going back to Amazon UK for replacement. Hoping this is just an isolated case, and not an issue on a whole production run.


Me too... Disc 4 track 2 is not playing . Haven't listened to all the tracks yet, I hope it's the only one that won't play. :cry:


Have to say I contacted Sandbag and I had replacement disc within 24 hrs.[/quote]I assumed Amazon wouldn't swap out a single disc, so the whole box has to be replaced.

Clearly something amiss with some pressings of disc 4, though.


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PostPosted: Fri November 24th, 2017, 12:47 GMT 
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Mmmmm - this gives me an idea. Maybe people could start complaining that the DVD doesn't work, and then when they get sent a replacement they could mail them out as xmas presents to all of us who don't have a copy?

Sticking it to the man!


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PostPosted: Fri November 24th, 2017, 16:13 GMT 

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slimtimslide wrote:
I rather like 'Man gave names to all the animals" - it sits right next to 'Wiggle Wiggle' as an exercise in humorous innocent fun. It may be hard to believe it is written by the same guy who gave us Visions Of Johanna or Desolation Row, but I enjoy them for what they are, and a three year old would get much more from them than from the serious stuff.


You know, I was listening to 'Man Gave Names' in my car today, when it dawned on me, after a mere thirty-eight years, that the precepts behind the song are not as childish as I always thought. Those are the emergence of consciousness and the consequent development of abstract thought. That is what is implied in giving a name to a thing-one is providing a signifier, both for the particular thing named and for the universal it represents. When the man that first named a dog did so, he not only was describing a label for the four-legged creature in front of him, but also recognising it as one that could be applied to other things of the category he was discovering, but not to a different, though similar, thing, such as a pig. Therefore, when one thinks of one's dog, one is thinking both of one's own pet and also of the notion of a dog as a universal. I recollect the late American novelist Walker Percy making a gallant attempt to explain these very esoteric ideas. This ability to think and organise one's thoughts abstractly is what distinguishes the human from the other animals.

Those that wrote Genesis weren't stupid. Whether Dylan was aware of such precepts when he wrote the song, I have no idea, but he's very well read, it's well-known.

As for the Trouble No More DVD, there appear to be quite a few with the post-modern problem of not having the technology to play it-perhaps they might donate their copies to those luddites who still have the players but not the DVD?


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PostPosted: Fri November 24th, 2017, 17:18 GMT 
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Mickvet wrote:
slimtimslide wrote:
I rather like 'Man gave names to all the animals" - it sits right next to 'Wiggle Wiggle' as an exercise in humorous innocent fun. It may be hard to believe it is written by the same guy who gave us Visions Of Johanna or Desolation Row, but I enjoy them for what they are, and a three year old would get much more from them than from the serious stuff.


You know, I was listening to 'Man Gave Names' in my car today, when it dawned on me, after a mere thirty-eight years, that the precepts behind the song are not as childish as I always thought. Those are the emergence of consciousness and the consequent development of abstract thought. That is what is implied in giving a name to a thing-one is providing a signifier, both for the particular thing named and for the universal it represents. When the man that first named a dog did so, he not only was describing a label for the four-legged creature in front of him, but also recognising it as one that could be applied to other things of the category he was discovering, but not to a different, though similar, thing, such as a pig. Therefore, when one thinks of one's dog, one is thinking both of one's own pet and also of the notion of a dog as a universal. I recollect the late American novelist Walker Percy making a gallant attempt to explain these very esoteric ideas. This ability to think and organise one's thoughts abstractly is what distinguishes the human from the other animals.

Those that wrote Genesis weren't stupid. Whether Dylan was aware of such precepts when he wrote the song, I have no idea, but he's very well read, it's well-known.

As for the Trouble No More DVD, there appear to be quite a few with the post-modern problem of not having the technology to play it-perhaps they might donate their copies to those luddites who still have the players but not the DVD?



It's funny, I've always loved this song, and I've never seen it as a humorous throw-away. I like what you've written above, but I've also additionally always thought of it as a sort of rebuke of the arrogance of mankind in the face of God. Given Bob's frame of mind on the Slow Train Coming album and around the time in general, this fits well. To me the song ridicules the fact that man can have the audacity to wander around this incredible planet, that is composed of God's creations, and deign to start naming things he sees, willy-nilly, as if he has the right to do so.

Really a cow is not actually a "cow", it is an animal, and we humans have chosen to chuck some letters at it in order to label it.
I also always saw the nursery-rhyme style of the song as an added rebuke. Man's naming of the animal kingdom is completely arbitrary... 'I will simply call this a 'cow' because it rhymes with something I just said. For I am man, and I say so.' The nursery rhyme style is also a clever way of suggesting that man's attitude to the world around him is and remains childlike... I want this, I want that, I'm calling this animal this, and that animal that, executed with selfish blinkeredness and without consideration for anyone other than ourselves and what we desire in the moment.

The reggae beat (which is wonderfully played) is also arbitrary to the subject matter, another layer of meaninglessness, put there simply because it's pleasant.

In this regard I've always thought people are missing something when they diss the song. I think it's one of the slyest Dylan's ever created, almost Randy-Newmanesque in its desire and ability to inhabit a thing while simultaneously mocking it.


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PostPosted: Fri November 24th, 2017, 17:35 GMT 

Joined: Fri January 5th, 2007, 23:38 GMT
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Rimshottbob wrote:
Mickvet wrote:

You know, I was listening to 'Man Gave Names' in my car today, when it dawned on me, after a mere thirty-eight years, that the precepts behind the song are not as childish as I always thought. Those are the emergence of consciousness and the consequent development of abstract thought. That is what is implied in giving a name to a thing-one is providing a signifier, both for the particular thing named and for the universal it represents. When the man that first named a dog did so, he not only was describing a label for the four-legged creature in front of him, but also recognising it as one that could be applied to other things of the category he was discovering, but not to a different, though similar, thing, such as a pig. Therefore, when one thinks of one's dog, one is thinking both of one's own pet and also of the notion of a dog as a universal. I recollect the late American novelist Walker Percy making a gallant attempt to explain these very esoteric ideas. This ability to think and organise one's thoughts abstractly is what distinguishes the human from the other animals.

Those that wrote Genesis weren't stupid. Whether Dylan was aware of such precepts when he wrote the song, I have no idea, but he's very well read, it's well-known.

As for the Trouble No More DVD, there appear to be quite a few with the post-modern problem of not having the technology to play it-perhaps they might donate their copies to those luddites who still have the players but not the DVD?



It's funny, I've always loved this song, and I've never seen it as a humorous throw-away. I like what you've written above, but I've also additionally always thought of it as a sort of rebuke of the arrogance of mankind in the face of God. Given Bob's frame of mind on the Slow Train Coming album and around the time in general, this fits well. To me the song ridicules the fact that man can have the audacity to wander around this incredible planet, that is composed of God's creations, and deign to start naming things he sees, willy-nilly, as if he has the right to do so.

Really a cow is not actually a "cow", it is an animal, and we humans have chosen to chuck some letters at it in order to label it.
I also always saw the nursery-rhyme style of the song as an added rebuke. Man's naming of the animal kingdom is completely arbitrary... 'I will simply call this a 'cow' because it rhymes with something I just said. For I am man, and I say so.' The nursery rhyme style is also a clever way of suggesting that man's attitude to the world around him is and remains childlike... I want this, I want that, I'm calling this animal this, and that animal that, executed with selfish blinkeredness and without consideration for anyone other than ourselves and what we desire in the moment.

The reggae beat (which is wonderfully played) is also arbitrary to the subject matter, another layer of meaninglessness, put there simply because it's pleasant.

In this regard I've always thought people are missing something when they diss the song. I think it's one of the slyest Dylan's ever created, almost Randy-Newmanesque in its desire and ability to inhabit a thing while simultaneously mocking it.


I don't think it's entirely arrogant to label things differentially. It is a means of attributing and communicating information. Without such distinctions some may have attempted to milk the wrong animal-if it happened, for example, to be the animal we now universally acknowledge as a lioness, rather than a cow, the result would most likely have been very unfortunate. So, such categorisation was absolutely necessary in man's being human, the imago dei which distinguishes him as an entirely new category from the other animals.


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PostPosted: Fri November 24th, 2017, 18:47 GMT 
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Does anyone here know if the rehearsal/take of Caribbean Wind that's included on the "Genuine bootleg series Vol 1" was recorded at Rundown Studios? :)


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PostPosted: Fri November 24th, 2017, 19:49 GMT 
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Anr Bjotk wrote:
Does anyone here know if the rehearsal/take of Caribbean Wind that's included on the "Genuine bootleg series Vol 1" was recorded at Rundown Studios? :)



According to Olof Björner, no

http://bjorner.com/DSN06131%20-%201981% ... m#DSN06133


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PostPosted: Fri November 24th, 2017, 19:55 GMT 
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h.egbert wrote:
Anr Bjotk wrote:
Does anyone here know if the rehearsal/take of Caribbean Wind that's included on the "Genuine bootleg series Vol 1" was recorded at Rundown Studios? :)



According to Olof Björner, no

http://bjorner.com/DSN06131%20-%201981% ... m#DSN06133


Is anyone of the circulating versions from Rundown then? If not, I'm getting genuinely excited for the Rundown version existing in the vaults... :D


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 12:14 GMT 

Joined: Tue January 6th, 2015, 15:03 GMT
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So, what does "Cover Down, Break Through" mean?


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 12:49 GMT 
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The titel was always incorrect, the right spelling is „Cover Down, Pray Trough“.

Btw: What does that mean?


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 13:14 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 7th, 2004, 18:31 GMT
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Mickvet wrote:
slimtimslide wrote:
I rather like 'Man gave names to all the animals" - it sits right next to 'Wiggle Wiggle' as an exercise in humorous innocent fun. It may be hard to believe it is written by the same guy who gave us Visions Of Johanna or Desolation Row, but I enjoy them for what they are, and a three year old would get much more from them than from the serious stuff.


You know, I was listening to 'Man Gave Names' in my car today, when it dawned on me, after a mere thirty-eight years, that the precepts behind the song are not as childish as I always thought. Those are the emergence of consciousness and the consequent development of abstract thought. That is what is implied in giving a name to a thing-one is providing a signifier, both for the particular thing named and for the universal it represents. When the man that first named a dog did so, he not only was describing a label for the four-legged creature in front of him, but also recognising it as one that could be applied to other things of the category he was discovering, but not to a different, though similar, thing, such as a pig. Therefore, when one thinks of one's dog, one is thinking both of one's own pet and also of the notion of a dog as a universal. I recollect the late American novelist Walker Percy making a gallant attempt to explain these very esoteric ideas. This ability to think and organise one's thoughts abstractly is what distinguishes the human from the other animals.

Those that wrote Genesis weren't stupid. Whether Dylan was aware of such precepts when he wrote the song, I have no idea, but he's very well read, it's well-known.

As for the Trouble No More DVD, there appear to be quite a few with the post-modern problem of not having the technology to play it-perhaps they might donate their copies to those luddites who still have the players but not the DVD?



Man giving names can be seen as a form of striving to mimic God's power of creation. So where God himself can actually create life and matter, all man can do is create systems to understand God's creation, a sort of secondary, less important creation. You could see everything man does from art to the sciences as merely attempts to create an order on God's creation. We can then expand this to say that man's desire to mimic creation was ultimately responsible for Original Sin. Thus the appearance of the snake at the very end. To borrow from another Bob song, man has invented his doom, first step was naming the animals.


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 13:28 GMT 
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h.egbert wrote:
The titel was always incorrect, the right spelling is „Cover Down, Pray Through“.

Btw: What does that mean?


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 13:46 GMT 
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toilandblood546 wrote:
... man's desire to mimic creation was ultimately responsible for Original Sin. Thus the appearance of the snake at the very end. To borrow from another Bob song, man has invented his doom, first step was naming the animals.

Not according to the biblical account; Genesis 2:20 [The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field.] happened before Genesis 3:1 [Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.]. First step was not naming the animals before the fall, but believing the lies of the serpent and acting on them.


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 14:07 GMT 

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notdarkyet wrote:
toilandblood546 wrote:
... man's desire to mimic creation was ultimately responsible for Original Sin. Thus the appearance of the snake at the very end. To borrow from another Bob song, man has invented his doom, first step was naming the animals.

Not according to the biblical account; Genesis 2:20 [The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field.] happened before Genesis 3:1 [Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.]. First step was not naming the animals before the fall, but believing the lies of the serpent and acting on them.



I think you misread my post or I am misunderstanding yours. I said that the naming of the animals preceded original sin, and my argument is that man's thirst to create an order of man that was outside of the order of God was a sign that man would yield to the temptation of the Tree of Knowledge. The fact that the snake is the last animal of this song, is Bob's way of showing how man's hubris behind the inferior acts of creation of naming animals was linked to his yielding to temptation for knowledge. Also, think about how much Bob hates being labelled as anything, thus song is a parody of labelling. "Mmmmm I think I'll call it a voice of a generation..."


Last edited by toilandblood546 on Sat November 25th, 2017, 14:18 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 14:18 GMT 

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toilandblood546 wrote:
notdarkyet wrote:
Not according to the biblical account; Genesis 2:20 [The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field.] happened before Genesis 3:1 [Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.]. First step was not naming the animals before the fall, but believing the lies of the serpent and acting on them.



I think you misread my post or I am misunderstanding yours. I said that the naming of the animals preceded original sin, and my argument is that man's thirst to create an order of man that was outside of the order of God was a sign that man would yield to the temptation of the Tree of Knowledge. The fact that the snake is the last animal of this song, is Bob's way of showing how man's hubris behind the inferior acts of creation of naming animals was linked to his yielding to temptation for knowledge.


If Man had not been given the ability to name things and think of these things in both the particular and universal, could he have been a rational being and therefore could he have been capable of making a decision in Free Will? Indeed, he wouldn't have even been capable of knowing what God was talking about when he mentioned a 'Tree'.


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 14:21 GMT 
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I'm getting really lost...and I'm sober.


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 14:27 GMT 

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Agree with a lot of that, Mickvet. The Bible frequently describes creation in terms of language. In the beginning was the Word for example. Or when the Tower of Babel was created God punishes Man by changing his languages. I think that you can make an argument that the Bible views language as sacred; and crucial in the process of creation and in the fall of Man. I think that when God made man in his own image he must have known that His creation would have a penchant for creating things. However I think that there is a duality in man's ability to create that allows him to create in Praise of God or against Him. When the snake appears slithering through the grass at the end of this song I think that Bob is making a very wry observation along these lines. The language that is labeling these animals is doing them harm, just as the fans who labeled Bob do him harm in his eyes. So you are right language itself is not a problem but rather the hubris that man uses behind his words and his labels.


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 14:32 GMT 
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toilandblood546 wrote:
I think you misread my post or I am misunderstanding yours. I said that the naming of the animals preceded original sin, and my argument is that man's thirst to create an order of man that was outside of the order of God was a sign that man would yield to the temptation of the Tree of Knowledge. The fact that the snake is the last animal of this song, is Bob's way of showing how man's hubris behind the inferior acts of creation of naming animals was linked to his yielding to temptation for knowledge. Also, think about how much Bob hates being labelled as anything, thus song is a parody of labelling. "Mmmmm I think I'll call it a voice of a generation..."

Maybe a misunderstanding, or just a different understanding of the biblical text and/or Bob's lyrics. I don't think Genesis 2:20 is telling us that naming the animals was a bad thing it itself, and it never occurred to me in the last 38 years that Dylan would be trying to communicate that it was. Things turned bad only after man chose to believe the lies of the serpent.


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 14:34 GMT 

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toilandblood546 wrote:
Agree with a lot of that, Mickvet. The Bible frequently describes creation in terms of language. In the beginning was the Word for example. Or when the Tower of Babel was created God punishes Man by changing his languages. I think that you can make an argument that the Bible views language and communication as crucial in the process of creation and in the fall of Man. I think that when God made man in his own image he must have known that his creation would have a penchant for creating things. However I think that there is a duality in man's ability to create that allows him to create in Praise of God or against Him. When the snake appears slithering through the grass at the end of this song I think that Bob is making a very wry observation along these lines. The language that is labeling these animals is doing them harm, just as the fans who labeled Bob do him harm in his eyes. So you are right language itself is not a problem but rather the hubris that man uses behind his words and his labels.


Unless God had first made Man reasonable, he could not have behaved unreasonably. And the Word is the foundation of Reason. You are dead right about Man's duality. With our powers of reason came the double-edged sword of Free Will. The rest is that snake and History.


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 14:35 GMT 

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notdarkyet wrote:
toilandblood546 wrote:
I think you misread my post or I am misunderstanding yours. I said that the naming of the animals preceded original sin, and my argument is that man's thirst to create an order of man that was outside of the order of God was a sign that man would yield to the temptation of the Tree of Knowledge. The fact that the snake is the last animal of this song, is Bob's way of showing how man's hubris behind the inferior acts of creation of naming animals was linked to his yielding to temptation for knowledge. Also, think about how much Bob hates being labelled as anything, thus song is a parody of labelling. "Mmmmm I think I'll call it a voice of a generation..."

Maybe a misunderstanding, or just a different understanding of the biblical text and/or Bob's lyrics. I don't think Genesis 2:20 is telling us that naming the animals was a bad thing it itself, and it never occurred to me in the last 38 years that Dylan would be trying to communicate that it was. Things turned bad only after man chose to believe the lies of the serpent.


The power of naming was not in itself bad, it just provided us with the means of choosing bad or good, two essences that themselves had to be named.


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PostPosted: Sat November 25th, 2017, 20:27 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
I'm getting really lost...and I'm sober.


Real straight arrow, that


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PostPosted: Sun November 26th, 2017, 08:33 GMT 
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h.egbert wrote:
The titel was always incorrect, the right spelling is „Cover Down, Pray Trough“.

Btw: What does that mean?


I guess it means:
*stay awake/alert/on guard and trust on prayers/God (to overcome/get through anything that troubles you)*

(my best guess, at least)


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PostPosted: Sun November 26th, 2017, 09:13 GMT 

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So, everyone's making guesses as to its precise meaning. Fair enough, I just wondered if 'cover down' was an American expression unfamiliar to us Brits.


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PostPosted: Sun November 26th, 2017, 10:08 GMT 
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mjmooney wrote:
So, everyone's making guesses as to its precise meaning. Fair enough, I just wondered if 'cover down' was an American expression unfamiliar to us Brits.


Elsewhere someone has commented that they heard this phrase from someone under a great deal of stress during hard times, who said there was nothing to be done about their situation for the present but 'cover down and pray through'... it may not make literal sense, but it is evocative. "Pull the covers down over me, and pray through the situation" doesn't have quite the same ring.


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