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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 14:24 GMT 
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FieldingMellish wrote:

Interesting. Do you have more detail, and/or sources for these comments? (I ask genuinely, not argumentatively.)


Unfortunately, not at hand. I want to say... maybe Heylin's Behind The Shades? Alternately, there was a Michael Gray book I read that might have had it. If I find a more specific quote, I will get back to you on it. In essence, it was similar to how Newport '65 went - most of the audience enjoyed it, but a few hecklers were responded to from the stage and it became more of a heightened story than those in the hall experienced; the archival releases have been edited, not inaccurately, to emphasize this aspect by enhancing crowd noise and highlighting the between-song exchanges more than they might if the narrative was not there.

A 2010 Rolling Stone interview with an unnamed Dylan camp individual (presumed to be Jeff Rosen) suggested that the narrative was a major aspect of what's chosen for Bootleg Series releases, noting that Supper Club '93 had been considered at the time of the Witmark Demos but was discarded because they couldn't frame it as a story. It makes sense, since these aren't giant dumps of archival material without curation, but it does inherently limit what's going to be included - I suspect this storytelling aspect is why more secular material from 1980-1981 was not included on BS13, like "Let's Keep It Between Us" or "Heart of Mine."


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 14:49 GMT 

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belleseb32 wrote:
FieldingMellish wrote:

Interesting. Do you have more detail, and/or sources for these comments? (I ask genuinely, not argumentatively.)


Unfortunately, not at hand. I want to say... maybe Heylin's Behind The Shades? Alternately, there was a Michael Gray book I read that might have had it. If I find a more specific quote, I will get back to you on it. In essence, it was similar to how Newport '65 went - most of the audience enjoyed it, but a few hecklers were responded to from the stage and it became more of a heightened story than those in the hall experienced; the archival releases have been edited, not inaccurately, to emphasize this aspect by enhancing crowd noise and highlighting the between-song exchanges more than they might if the narrative was not there.

A 2010 Rolling Stone interview with an unnamed Dylan camp individual (presumed to be Jeff Rosen) suggested that the narrative was a major aspect of what's chosen for Bootleg Series releases, noting that Supper Club '93 had been considered at the time of the Witmark Demos but was discarded because they couldn't frame it as a story. It makes sense, since these aren't giant dumps of archival material without curation, but it does inherently limit what's going to be included - I suspect this storytelling aspect is why more secular material from 1980-1981 was not included on BS13, like "Let's Keep It Between Us" or "Heart of Mine."


I was lamenting in another thread the absence of 'let's keep it between us' from the set.... (hadn't even thought of 'heart of mine', but at least it's a song that was released!).... and actually, isn't part of the 'story' of the whole thing is how at the end of the so-called 'gospel' period', Bob found a way to get back into his pre-gospel material (the 1981 show included has about half 'old' material) and also start writing songs not primarily 'spiritual' ("groom's still waiting at the altar", for one, "Lenny Bruce" for a second, and both of those songs included on the box, while the unreleased 'lets keep it between us' is not......)


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 15:07 GMT 

Joined: Wed May 31st, 2017, 00:56 GMT
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The Bard wrote:
ShotofMercy wrote:
The New Orleans version is stellar, and it's a shame that it isn't on this release.


I just dont get that line of thinking.
It's precisely because we do already have a "stellar" version that it would have been a shame if they had included it here.


I also far prefer that more raw sound of Europe '81 to the more slick sound of USA '81, but that's another story.


I get what you mean, it's just that personally I think it'd be better for the Dylan crew to release this material officially rather than have some people rely on actuall bootlegs. I have a love/hate relationship with bootlegs because there's something very appealing to them and they also give fans a chance to hear something they thought they'd never be able to. That being said, I think those three years are very important to really nail and the material from '79 and '80 sound great to me, I just have what I know is a stupid gripe over the '81 material. But earls court as a whole doesn't sound bat at all, and there's other live material from that year on the other discs that sound awesome so I'm just happy we have it now (well not really have it, seems there's still problems with shipping. But soon!)


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 15:11 GMT 

Joined: Tue December 30th, 2008, 09:05 GMT
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Location: Liverpool
How do you find the Earls Court concert overall?[/quote]
Many of us are quite familiar with the '81 tour. Some of these points are general regarding the tour..
-Bob&co stepped up their game with arrangements; the SLC material sounds edgier; Serve Somebody and Wake Up both rock a lot harder than previously.
-Dylan's approach to his vocal was higher register and a lot of syncopation. You can hear some reggae
influences (particularly Marley who had just died a month before) in both the arrangements & vocals.
Fact is though that the vocals here & there are pretty thin & reedy, partly because of how they are recorded.
-I feel the New Orleans November concert is probably on par. I think they did right to put London out instead, considering that many people have great boots of New Orleans.
![/quote]

Agree with some points here, particularly the higher register and reggae influences in Dylan's vocals, and the harder edged playing of the band. Personally, I think the '81 summer tour was the best Dylan had sung since the Rolling Thunder Revue. It's also one of the few times I agree with Heylin when he says that the vocal acrobatics of that tour blew out Dylan's vocals. This why I'm surprised people prefer the Fall tour, which doesn't come close to the Summer tour in my opinion. There are negatives; songs like Ballad of A Thin Man, Girl From The North Country, Forever Young and a few others from the sixties could probably have used a rest at this point. For me the Earls Court release is the highlight of the set.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 17:04 GMT 
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Somebody Naked wrote:
I'm loving the music; but, dare I say that the Trouble No More DVD is a wasted opportunity? Apart from a promising opening - it starts like a documentary and everything - it's seemingly just footage from one concert, interspersed with all that sermon stuff. And that's it. Interesting rehearsal footage at the beginning and end. Otherwise a bit, well, lazy. There's a real story to be told here, but apparently no one could be bothered.

Is that unfair?


The stuff on the dvd is great.
But I am more than just a little bit disappointed about that DVD. I expected something like NO DIRECTIOn HOME.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 17:08 GMT 
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mikesnyc wrote:
isn't part of the 'story' of the whole thing is how at the end of the so-called 'gospel' period', Bob found a way to get back into his pre-gospel material (the 1981 show included has about half 'old' material) and also start writing songs not primarily 'spiritual' ("groom's still waiting at the altar", for one, "Lenny Bruce" for a second, and both of those songs included on the box, while the unreleased 'lets keep it between us' is not......)


Two responses on this, though I think your case is a good one:

1. Getting back to secular material is a story, but not the one that Trouble No More told. I do wish that it included that material, but creative decisions were made on the large scale (the story of the set) that limited its scope, for better and worse.

2. "Lenny Bruce" is included, but only in the context of the full 1981 concert. It's not included as a period-specific song, in much the same way that older songs - "Maggie's Farm," "Like A Rolling Stone," etc. - are within the context of the full Earl's Court show. Had they selected a full show from Fall 1980, it's likely that "Let's Keep It Between Us" would have appeared. "The Groom's Still Waiting At The Altar," on the other hand, is a song still full of religious imagery in much the same way as "Caribbean Wind". These two, along with "In The Summertime" and "Watered Down Love," are in a unique place between Dylan's 'gospel' and 'secular' 1980/1981 content so I guess it was decided that they fell in enough with the box set's theme to make the cut. If memory serves, "Let's Keep It Between Us," "Lenny Bruce" and "Heart of Mine" have no significant biblical allusions at all.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 17:18 GMT 

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belleseb32 wrote:
mikesnyc wrote:
isn't part of the 'story' of the whole thing is how at the end of the so-called 'gospel' period', Bob found a way to get back into his pre-gospel material (the 1981 show included has about half 'old' material) and also start writing songs not primarily 'spiritual' ("groom's still waiting at the altar", for one, "Lenny Bruce" for a second, and both of those songs included on the box, while the unreleased 'lets keep it between us' is not......)


Two responses on this, though I think your case is a good one:

1. Getting back to secular material is a story, but not the one that Trouble No More told. I do wish that it included that material, but creative decisions were made on the large scale (the story of the set) that limited its scope, for better and worse.

2. "Lenny Bruce" is included, but only in the context of the full 1981 concert. It's not included as a period-specific song, in much the same way that older songs - "Maggie's Farm," "Like A Rolling Stone," etc. - are within the context of the full Earl's Court show. Had they selected a full show from Fall 1980, it's likely that "Let's Keep It Between Us" would have appeared. "The Groom's Still Waiting At The Altar," on the other hand, is a song still full of religious imagery in much the same way as "Caribbean Wind". These two, along with "In The Summertime" and "Watered Down Love," are in a unique place between Dylan's 'gospel' and 'secular' 1980/1981 content so I guess it was decided that they fell in enough with the box set's theme to make the cut. If memory serves, "Let's Keep It Between Us," "Lenny Bruce" and "Heart of Mine" have no significant biblical allusions at all.


true, but.. and this is for me a big but..... 'let's keep it between us' is a really really good if not great song with a really fantastic performance! With a box set with five or six versions of the song 'slow train', four or five versions of most of the other 'core' gospel songs, would it have done any damage at all to the narrative to include a great performance of a totally unreleased amazing original song? .. its not like the song lyrics are 'by the way, forget all that jesus stuff in the other songs, i was only kidding!', right? :) You probably do sum up what the compilers were thinking with this one, tho..


Last edited by mikesnyc on Sun November 5th, 2017, 17:23 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 17:19 GMT 

Joined: Tue December 30th, 2008, 09:05 GMT
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Location: Liverpool
Turtle wrote:
Somebody Naked wrote:
I'm loving the music; but, dare I say that the Trouble No More DVD is a wasted opportunity? Apart from a promising opening - it starts like a documentary and everything - it's seemingly just footage from one concert, interspersed with all that sermon stuff. And that's it. Interesting rehearsal footage at the beginning and end. Otherwise a bit, well, lazy. There's a real story to be told here, but apparently no one could be bothered.

Is that unfair?


If you take the DVD for what's it included, then it's very good, but yeah once you start thinking about what could have been included, then it does seem a little on the short side.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 18:00 GMT 
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Turtle wrote:
Somebody Naked wrote:
I'm loving the music; but, dare I say that the Trouble No More DVD is a wasted opportunity? Apart from a promising opening - it starts like a documentary and everything - it's seemingly just footage from one concert, interspersed with all that sermon stuff. And that's it. Interesting rehearsal footage at the beginning and end. Otherwise a bit, well, lazy. There's a real story to be told here, but apparently no one could be bothered.

Is that unfair?


The stuff on the dvd is great.
But I am more than just a little bit disappointed about that DVD. I expected something like NO DIRECTIOn HOME.


Well, exactly. Wonderful footage, but I really would have appreciated a proper documentary.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 18:04 GMT 

Joined: Mon March 16th, 2009, 10:46 GMT
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belleseb32 wrote:
A 2010 Rolling Stone interview with an unnamed Dylan camp individual (presumed to be Jeff Rosen) suggested that the narrative was a major aspect of what's chosen for Bootleg Series releases, noting that Supper Club '93 had been considered at the time of the Witmark Demos but was discarded because they couldn't frame it as a story. It makes sense, since these aren't giant dumps of archival material without curation, but it does inherently limit what's going to be included - I suspect this storytelling aspect is why more secular material from 1980-1981 was not included on BS13, like "Let's Keep It Between Us" or "Heart of Mine."

That could very well be it. What I sort of rationalised in my own mind is that Dylan seems to have had
quite an active involvement in this instalment (or maybe his involvement was just more widely
reported), possibly because there's something about this period that is still sacrosanct and special
in Dylan's mind. Songs like 'Need a Woman' and 'Let's Keep It Between Us' herald the end of his
involvement with Vineyard & the evangelical community. They speak of Bob's fatigue with some of
the social control elements within the church. To include them may have felt like a dilution of focus,
a muddying of the waters.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 18:10 GMT 
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I'm going to have to do an audio rip of Abraham Martina and John when I get a hold of the dvd. It's worth the set alone.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 18:34 GMT 
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goodnitesteve wrote:
I'm going to have to do an audio rip of Abraham Martina and John when I get a hold of the dvd. It's worth the set alone.


That’s what I plan to do also. Somehow I will figure out how to rip this DVD audio and file it as disc 11 of audio in the BS13 folder.

I watched the DVD sans sermons. It didn’t have much cohesion as an experience. I’m glad we have it but it feels like so much more could have been done with it.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 18:55 GMT 
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kuddukan wrote:
goodnitesteve wrote:
I'm going to have to do an audio rip of Abraham Martina and John when I get a hold of the dvd. It's worth the set alone.


That’s what I plan to do also. Somehow I will figure out how to rip this DVD audio and file it as disc 11 of audio in the BS13 folder.

I watched the DVD sans sermons. It didn’t have much cohesion as an experience. I’m glad we have it but it feels like so much more could have been done with it.


I think Bob just likes Michael Shannon as an actor. Use Handbrake, it works really well. I know you can use it on the mac, but it should be on the pc as well.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 18:56 GMT 

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Abraham, Martin and John. (TROUBLE NO MORE )
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FZb0YNPU-sI


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 19:07 GMT 
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zagonga wrote:
Abraham, Martin and John. (TROUBLE NO MORE )
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FZb0YNPU-sI


Off the speaker? I remember it sounded clearer in the film.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 19:09 GMT 

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belleseb32 wrote:
A 2010 Rolling Stone interview with an unnamed Dylan camp individual (presumed to be Jeff Rosen) suggested that the narrative was a major aspect of what's chosen for Bootleg Series releases, noting that Supper Club '93 had been considered at the time of the Witmark Demos but was discarded because they couldn't frame it as a story. It makes sense, since these aren't giant dumps of archival material without curation, but it does inherently limit what's going to be included - I suspect this storytelling aspect is why more secular material from 1980-1981 was not included on BS13, like "Let's Keep It Between Us" or "Heart of Mine."


Probably that's also why The Never-Ending Tour has been neglected so far in the Bootleg series. There's no obvious "story" to it. The way people call The NET phases here in ER (ie, "GE Smith years" and so on) are not going to stick on an official release. Frame it as "Time Out Of Mind Tour" or something similar, connecting to the latest album recorded, is also weak, in my opinion (and hasn't been done yet in the BS). And I can't think of a concert (or series of) in the NET that has a special "aura" (let's use that) besides Supper Club. The other ones were just another city in the schedule - although everyone here has their favorites.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 19:18 GMT 

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They could do a 99-02 story concerning the Campbell/Sexton/Kemper/Garnier band years which would factor in M&A, L&T alt takes etc.Grear era.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 20:03 GMT 

Joined: Mon March 16th, 2009, 10:46 GMT
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San Diego
Had a good chance listen through this one today in the car.
This concert really builds. It starts out fine, but builds in
passion and intensity especially in the second half.
Highlights:
Slow Train Beautiful guitar solo.
Covenant Woman: chills, an understated intimate vocal.
In comparison the studio version sounds flat & routine.
Solid Rock Dylan tears through this with more than
Rolling Thunder fervor.
Saving Grace Brilliant. All the slow tunes tend to be
quite emotional.
Saved Energy keeps building through this song. I agree
with what someone said earlier. Play this at high volume!
What Can I Do For You? Fresh, sung as if performed for
the first time.
Bless Is The Name Sledgehammer. Drummond's bass pops.
The whole band bolts along like the Metroliner.
Pressing On The audience seems either delirious or very
high. It's a riot. At the end of the night it feels like the crowd is
resolutely on board, and quite happy with their ticket.


Last edited by gerardv on Sun November 5th, 2017, 20:12 GMT, edited 5 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 20:08 GMT 
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Thank you for the review, gerardv!


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 20:10 GMT 

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mikesnyc wrote:
belleseb32 wrote:
isn't part of the 'story' of the whole thing is how at the end of the so-called 'gospel' period', Bob found a way to get back into his pre-gospel material (the 1981 show included has about half 'old' material) and also start writing songs not primarily 'spiritual' ("groom's still waiting at the altar", for one, "Lenny Bruce" for a second, and both of those songs included on the box, while the unreleased 'lets keep it between us' is not......)

Two responses on this, though I think your case is a good one:

1. Getting back to secular material is a story, but not the one that Trouble No More told. I do wish that it included that material, but creative decisions were made on the large scale (the story of the set) that limited its scope, for better and worse.

2. "Lenny Bruce" is included, but only in the context of the full 1981 concert. It's not included as a period-specific song, in much the same way that older songs - "Maggie's Farm," "Like A Rolling Stone," etc. - are within the context of the full Earl's Court show. Had they selected a full show from Fall 1980, it's likely that "Let's Keep It Between Us" would have appeared. "The Groom's Still Waiting At The Altar," on the other hand, is a song still full of religious imagery in much the same way as "Caribbean Wind". These two, along with "In The Summertime" and "Watered Down Love," are in a unique place between Dylan's 'gospel' and 'secular' 1980/1981 content so I guess it was decided that they fell in enough with the box set's theme to make the cut. If memory serves, "Let's Keep It Between Us," "Lenny Bruce" and "Heart of Mine" have no significant biblical allusions at all.


true, but.. and this is for me a big but..... 'let's keep it between us' is a really really good if not great song with a really fantastic performance! With a box set with five or six versions of the song 'slow train', four or five versions of most of the other 'core' gospel songs, would it have done any damage at all to the narrative to include a great performance of a totally unreleased amazing original song? .. its not like the song lyrics are 'by the way, forget all that jesus stuff in the other songs, i was only kidding!', right? :) You probably do sum up what the compilers were thinking with this one, tho..



Agreed. It's a real shame they excluded Let's Keep It Between Us, which as you say is a very good and maybe great song - a rarity for the period, as most of the songs on the Christian albums are crap.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 22:05 GMT 
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Re: framing a narrative for the NET. I think Trouble No More points to a way forward.

Pack in Bromberg/WGW/GAIBTY and whatever bits and pieces from the early nineties there are. Add in the Supper Club and a particularly good '94 show and you can have the 'Dylan finds his muse' bootleg series.


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 22:41 GMT 
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four-armed phone wrote:
Probably that's also why The Never-Ending Tour has been neglected so far in the Bootleg series. There's no obvious "story" to it.


Very interesting point. Look at all the press, which likely drives a huge percentage of the revenue, and the "born again phase" story of this release or the great history of Basement tapes or the 'revival' of Self Portrait - without those huge angles they wouldn't get the major stories and therefore business would be much less worth the huge packaging effort. Never thought about that side of it.

Guess it's Blood on the Tracks next....

They could certainly do a more modestly packaged series of LIVE NET shows (outside the Bootleg Series) and we'd all buy them (assuming quality upgrades).


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PostPosted: Sun November 5th, 2017, 23:44 GMT 

Joined: Sat September 14th, 2013, 17:56 GMT
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I am really enjoying this set so far. It has me wondering—are we past the point of ever getting another simple two disc Bootleg Series release? Do you think that they’ll only deal with releases that feature deluxe six to eight disc boxes from here on out?

I’d love to get a proper Supper Club release, but now it would have to fit within the context of a larger deluxe release with a marketable narrative. Volumes 11-13 have raised the bar, and I don’t see it getting lowered again.


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PostPosted: Mon November 6th, 2017, 00:09 GMT 
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I Believe In You from Earls Court was just beautiful


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PostPosted: Mon November 6th, 2017, 02:44 GMT 
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The Kindle version of Heylin's new 'Trouble in Mind' book is down to $10.49 pre-order if anyone wants to grab before Tuesday. Not sure if price will rise then.


https://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Mind-Dyl ... Src=detail


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