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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 10:12 GMT 

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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 10:46 GMT 

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Hank wrote:
I'm having trouble grasping why Sony would allow the copyright to lapse on JWH outtakes--unless (a) Dylan, for some reason, never wants these outtakes to see the light of day; (b) Sony, for some reason, does not own the master tapes (this might have something to do with the breakup with Grossman, or perhaps explain why they have yet to show up on any Bootleg Series title); (c) based on studies of previous EU grey-market titles, they've calculated that the amount of revenue that they would stand to lose to EU bootleggers is minimal; (d) they have been advised that previous "Copyright Extension/50th Anniversary) titles somehow failed to extend the copyrights as intended; or (e) they have it on good authority that the EU laws are set to change.

That's just spitballing, however. It makes no practical sense for Sony to allow these recordings to lose even partial international copyright protection--if it can be prevented by another small "50th Anniversary" release. (And has Sony ever spent any money at all marketing/promoting these sets? If memory serves, the 1962-64 titles were each very quietly dropped in December with little to no formal announcement.)


Options A and B both seem likely. Also, perhaps they don't have access to all the tapes anymore, making a potential release somewhat fragmented. (Did Sony ever aquire all of Clark Enslin's tapes? That Nashville Skyline tape on eBay some years ago suggests they didn't).

Sony's commercial judgment isn't always particularly well-tuned (as in the way they've handled their Johnny Cash reissues, for instance). But the people who handle Sony's Dylan stash are at the top of Legacy Recordings and know exactly what they're doing - whereas most of the rest of Sony's marketing staff might as well be selling washing powder or toilet paper for all they care. Hopefully though, they're don't decide future copyright sets based on the effect of the first three but rather on how well Cutting Edge and the Bootleg Series in general do. (I'm guessing that the JWH material will also be more interesting to a general audience than outtakes, etc. from the early 60's).

Obviously the copyright sets are being pirated - homemade copies are even on display at major record fairs in Europe, and have been so for some years. But if they wish, Sony can still have that stopped. Without securing another 20 years of copyright, Sony does run a real risk of this stuff soon being all over the streaming services, Amazon, etc.


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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 12:57 GMT 
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BenjaminH wrote:
Obviously the copyright sets are being pirated - homemade copies are even on display at major record fairs in Europe, and have been so for some years. But if they wish, Sony can still have that stopped. Without securing another 20 years of copyright, Sony does run a real risk of this stuff soon being all over the streaming services, Amazon, etc.

Yep. Huge risk.

Ain't gonna say who or how obviously, but I know someone who has had these outtakes buried away like treasure for years, and will most certainly be sold and circulated come next year.

Watch out Sony!

(this is no joke)


Last edited by mystic garden on Tue September 19th, 2017, 13:04 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 12:58 GMT 
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I heard the tapes once in a washhouse in New Mexico. Or was it Santa Fe. They definitely are circulating. They are tremendous.


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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 13:34 GMT 
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Cmon guys :D sony arent thick!. Can you tell us anything we dont already know about the outtakes then?


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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 14:10 GMT 
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Sometimes he sang with his Nashville Skyline twang. There was a version of Frankie Lee solo on piano.


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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 15:01 GMT 
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Without judas priest!!!


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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 15:26 GMT 

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Apparently I'm a gullible rube.


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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 16:05 GMT 
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This thread broke my irony-meter. :?
goodnitesteve wrote:
I heard the tapes once in a washhouse in New Mexico. Or was it Santa Fe. They definitely are circulating. They are tremendous.

Or was it a whorehouse in Buenos Aires... :?:


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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 17:27 GMT 
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my precious time wrote:
This thread broke my irony-meter. :?
goodnitesteve wrote:
I heard the tapes once in a washhouse in New Mexico. Or was it Santa Fe. They definitely are circulating. They are tremendous.

Or was it a whorehouse in Buenos Aires... :?:


The outtakes I heard were at a warehouse and were unusual for these odd Arabian drums accompaniment.


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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 17:48 GMT 
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yopietro wrote:

The outtakes I heard were at a warehouse and were unusual for these odd Arabian drums accompaniment.



If you listen closely with your headphones on you can hear one hundred drummers. I'd like to see their hands.


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PostPosted: Tue September 19th, 2017, 18:57 GMT 
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eltedioso wrote:

So people are bluffing then? Right, that's what I figured.
...Or ARE they?!


Yes.


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PostPosted: Wed September 20th, 2017, 01:44 GMT 
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My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:
eltedioso wrote:

So people are bluffing then? Right, that's what I figured.
...Or ARE they?!


Yes.

I was not bluffing.

Ban me if it's not circulating next year.


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PostPosted: Wed September 20th, 2017, 06:54 GMT 
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Tell us something we dont ken about them then :?


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PostPosted: Wed September 20th, 2017, 08:03 GMT 
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escapeedrifter wrote:
Tell us something we dont ken about them then :?


The key is Ken. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed September 20th, 2017, 09:56 GMT 
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mystic garden wrote:
I was not bluffing.

Ban me if it's not circulating next year.


I believe you.

In any case banning you would be too harsh. I could send you my chocolate hat to eat in case there is a forfeit to be made.


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PostPosted: Fri September 22nd, 2017, 13:16 GMT 

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There are many here among us, that feel that anybody owning the outtakes must be a joke
But you and me, we've been thru that, "i'd love a PM", Maxwinner truly and kindly spoke.


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PostPosted: Tue October 31st, 2017, 07:52 GMT 
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EvanMarshall wrote:
You might very well be right but it would seem that Dylan's people see it another way. Sony have been very proactive about releasing this stuff in the past so it would seem very unusual of them to just let JWH-era recordings go public domain. This is a company which has released every single note in the studio or on stage for 65/66 - a total of 54 CDs with the equivalent of another 11 as a download which included some concerts in real diabolical quality from 65. The company that put out the equivale of 65 CDs for 65/66 wouldn't let the 67 material go PD unless they felt they were on a strong legal footing. I'll admit though that a reading of the current law seems to be against them. Isn't it curious though that the Beatles and the Stones have just ignored the whole copyright extension thing?

Yes, it is very curious, and has been a matter of intense speculation among Beatles fans ever since they bailed on the "Copyright Extension" bandwagon in 2014. Clearly, Apple and Bob Inc. have taken different legal approaches, with Bob's being "better safe than sorry" and Apple's being "better not release anything or we'll sue you"! Since they are clearly apples and oranges (pun intended) in terms of legal strategy, the question should only be: "Why would Bob comply with the EU directive for five straight years, covering MOST of his 'golden' period, and stop NOW?" It doesn't make sense, especially after all the effort was made to protect "every second recorded" of the 1965-66 sessions and concerts. The Dylan "source" has told Rolling Stone that there will be no JWH release this year, so I'm just going to try not to think about it until mid-December. When I do think about it, though, I think there are two real possibilities:

(1) Fans who purchased Bootleg Series 13 from BD.com will get a download of "Copyright Extension 1967", just as those who bought Big Blue got "CE 1965" a couple of years ago; OR
(2) On December 29th, with no prior announcement, a nice (but simple) 3-4 CD reissue of John Wesley Harding will just appear on shelves (where they exist) or download/streaming services. Stereo mix, Mono mix, and 1-2 CDs of outtakes, thereby protecting the most valuable vaulted takes. Why the secrecy? A sly nod to how the original JWH was released with almost no publicity in 1967 (some shops didn't even get it until 1968). Releasing it in late December with no press fulfills the EU directive AND doesn't compete with BS13; eventually (January or February 2018), Sony issues a press release and announces it -- but likely, the very secrecy and quick discovery of it will get it more free publicity than it would have gotten as a normal release.

Why do I think the Dylan "source" denial is a smokescreen? Because (a) they've issued Copyright Extension sets every year from 2012-2016 and haven't declared an intention to stop; and (b) at least twice in the past year, reports on the Dylan Archive in Tulsa have remarked on hearing surprising, unexpected outtake material from JWH. We've always been led to believe that there was nothing different, nothing interesting to hear in the tapes, but now people who have actually HEARD them have said that there IS.

So until January 1st comes and goes with no release, I am hopeful. Not betting my house on it, but hopeful.


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PostPosted: Tue October 31st, 2017, 13:08 GMT 
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In my mind, BOB was '66, Basement tapes was '67 and JWH was '68.

So I did some reading and found a couple claims that JWH actually came out in the first days of January 1968. I don't know the law but if the ticker starts when the product is available in stores, then maybe they have another year to protect this stuff.
Quote:
"John Wesley Harding" - mono vinyl LP, Columbia CL 2804 (USA), Jan 1968:
bobdylan.com says the release date was 27 Dec 1967, but contemporary sources say the album did not appear in stores until Jan 1968.


Quote:
Release dates[edit]
Contradictory release dates have been claimed for this album. In addition to the date listed above, the liner notes to the Dylan mono box states December 17, 1967, as the original date of release.[19] Reproduced in the liner notes to the eleventh volume of the Dylan Bootleg Series is an article by Al Aronowitz for The New York Times, date stamped December 23, 1967, stating that John Wesley Harding would be released "within the next two weeks".[20] In a November 2014 article for CounterPunch on-line, musician Peter Stone Brown claims from personal recollection a date of January 2, 1968.



PSB posts here. Has he commented?


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PostPosted: Tue October 31st, 2017, 13:11 GMT 
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As far as I understand it, JWH was officially released at the end of December, but given the holidays, many stores didn't receive copies until after New Year.

It's surprisingly hard to work out exact release dates in the mid sixties, given that distribution was relatively localised, and there could also be differences between UK and US. See Blonde on Blonde for more confusion.


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PostPosted: Tue October 31st, 2017, 15:05 GMT 
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gibsona07 wrote:
As far as I understand it, JWH was officially released at the end of December, but given the holidays, many stores didn't receive copies until after New Year.

It's surprisingly hard to work out exact release dates in the mid sixties, given that distribution was relatively localised, and there could also be differences between UK and US. See Blonde on Blonde for more confusion.



I'm ashamed of myself for being brainwashed into believing that the JWH outtakes might be released this year as a copyright collection. All I had to do was look at the copyright information on the UK LP label.

©1968

Assuming that this is not a typo on the label and record sleeve, Bob Inc. has until 31 December 2018 to decide whether to release a JWH outtakes Copyright Collection.

According to SFAG, JWH was released in Europe in February 1968. I think I'm right in saying that for European Copyright purposes it doesn't matter when it was released in the US; the copyright laws are different there.

Image

#


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PostPosted: Tue October 31st, 2017, 15:24 GMT 
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^^^^

I'm not convinced that things are that easy.

As far as I understood the matter, according to the (new) European copyright law the date of a certain recording is important.


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PostPosted: Tue October 31st, 2017, 15:28 GMT 
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I'm not an expert, but I think other people here have noted that the EU copyright laws relate to when the recordings were made, rather than when they were first copyrighted.


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PostPosted: Tue October 31st, 2017, 16:09 GMT 
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Winter Lude wrote:
In my mind, BOB was '66, Basement tapes was '67 and JWH was '68.

So I did some reading and found a couple claims that JWH actually came out in the first days of January 1968. I don't know the law but if the ticker starts when the product is available in stores, then maybe they have another year to protect this stuff.


Disregard my post. I wasn't thinking straight. This has nothing to do with the release date of an album full of different recordings. We're talking about out takes from the sessions, not an anniversary of the official release.


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PostPosted: Tue October 31st, 2017, 16:11 GMT 
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h.egbert wrote:
^^^^

I'm not convinced that things are that easy.

As far as I understood the matter, according to the (new) European copyright law the date of a certain recording is important.



There does seem to be some confusion, mostly in my head it seems, but you're probably right. There's this from Gov.uk:-


if a recording is not published or communicated to the public, the performers` rights last for 50 years from when the recording was made

if a recording is published or communicated to the public within 50 years of when it was made the performers` rights last for 70 years from the year when the earliest of these events first occurs


which seems clear.

So it seems I can still dream about a Christmas gift from bobdylan.com as a reward for buying BS13 from the website. (I won't hold my breath though!)


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