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PostPosted: Thu August 24th, 2017, 16:33 GMT 
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escapeedrifter wrote:
The other collections were released or at least announced by now (late august) in the previous years? Its not looking good, I was really looking forward to hearing these. :cry:


I think there is a bit of confusion here. The Bootleg Series are announced between mid-August and late-September (at least since BS 11). Regarding copyright releases, there are rumours around late-november early december.


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PostPosted: Thu August 24th, 2017, 21:49 GMT 
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My bad, theres still time :)


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PostPosted: Fri August 25th, 2017, 11:25 GMT 
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michpom wrote:
WrittenInMySoul wrote:
What if Dylan's people just talk to the guy who allegedly has these tapes and buy the recordings back from him?


This will not happen. The person who has the tapes (I remember there were several takes of All Along the Watchtower) has a collection of non-circulating tapes, that he will NEVER let go out of his hard drive. He did not pay to get them, just established through the years a relationship of trust with somebody who is quite close to Bob Dylan. Even if this is very frustrating, one can understand, as the condition to get these outtakes was to never let them circulate.
This is and will (unfortunately) be respected.


@michpom What else can you tell us about the session tapes? The information about several takes of All Along The Watchtower is not new, since it was published by the Dylan Archive people in Tulsa.


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PostPosted: Fri August 25th, 2017, 15:26 GMT 

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@michpom What else can you tell us about the session tapes? The information about several takes of All Along The Watchtower is not new, since it was published by the Dylan Archive people in Tulsa.

Not much more I am afraid, these sessions were only a part of the treasure I discovered on that day, in the state of mind that you can imagine. I could not listen to all of them, I just remember these several takes of AATWT; there were other songs too, but I do not remember the titles. There were about 15/20 songs in the JWH directory, and there were a lot of directories...


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PostPosted: Sat August 26th, 2017, 05:00 GMT 
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I'll bet the out takes are like the '65-'66 out takes. It's cool to be a fly on the wall, hearing different versions and aborted takes. But it's not something you listen to over and over. They should save us the trouble of illegally downloading torrents and make it public. It would make a good radio show on Sirius XM. Interview Bob and have him talk about the sessions.

..if only.


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PostPosted: Sat August 26th, 2017, 09:34 GMT 
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Nightingale's Code wrote:
WrittenInMySoul wrote:
What if Dylan's people just talk to the guy who allegedly has these tapes and buy the recordings back from him? Make him an offer he can't refuse, or something like that?

Shame Albert Grossman died. He was probably a perfect Luca Brasi.

:lol:


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PostPosted: Sat August 26th, 2017, 14:18 GMT 
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Winter Lude wrote:
I'll bet the out takes are like the '65-'66 out takes. It's cool to be a fly on the wall, hearing different versions and aborted takes. But it's not something you listen to over and over. They should save us the trouble of illegally downloading torrents and make it public. It would make a good radio show on Sirius XM. Interview Bob and have him talk about the sessions.

..if only.



I would happily counter that and hope they do release "everything" they have, i doubt i will get bored going back to the previous big releases, cutting edge, basement tapes, the live 66 releases and the copyright stuff. Its a treasure trove i love getting lost in from time to time. I dont want some technician picking out his favourites for a small 2 cd set.


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PostPosted: Fri September 1st, 2017, 17:38 GMT 
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Searching For A Gem says a 1967 Copyright Protection will not happen.

http://www.searchingforagem.com/GemNews.htm


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PostPosted: Fri September 1st, 2017, 18:05 GMT 
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What is the track listing (if there is one) of the JWH?


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PostPosted: Fri September 1st, 2017, 18:15 GMT 
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shooting_star_night wrote:
What is the track listing (if there is one) of the JWH?


The JWH sessions (according to Michael Krogsgaard) that are not going to be released:-

There have been rumours of a September 1967 session prior to the actual recording of John Wesley Harding. There are no session dates in Bob Dylan's name in the Nashville log books prior to the three John Wesley Harding sessions. For the first two sessions, all details are available:


Studio A
Columbia Recording Studios
Nashville, Tennessee
October 17, 1967, 9 pm - 12 midnight.

Produced by Bob Johnston


1. Drifter's Escape CO120927 Take 1C
2. Drifter's Escape Take 2C
3. Drifter's Escape Take 3b
4. Drifter's Escape Take 4b
5. Drifter's Escape Take 5C

6. I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine CO120928 Take 1B
7. I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine Take 2C
8. I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine Take 3C
9. I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine Take 4C

10. The Ballad Of Frankie Lee And Judas Priest
CO120929 Take 1C


Musicians: Charlie McCoy (bass) and Kenneth Buttrey (drums).


2, 9 and 10 released on John Wesley Harding.


Studio A
Columbia Recording Studios
Nashville, Tennessee
November 6, 1967, 6:00 - 9:30 pm.

Produced by Bob Johnston


1. All Along The Watchtower CO120955 Take 1b
2. All Along The Watchtower Take 2C
3. All Along The Watchtower Take 3C
4. All Along The Watchtower (Insert) Take 1b
5. All Along The Watchtower (Insert) Take 2C

6. John Wesley Harding CO120956 Take 1C
7. John Wesley Harding Take 2C

8. As I Went Out One Morning CO120957 Take 1C
9. As I Went Out One Morning Take 2C
10. As I Went Out One Morning Take 3B
11. As I Went Out One Morning Take 4b
12. As I Went Out One Morning Take 5C

13. I Pity The Poor Immigrant CO120958 Take 1b
14. I Pity The Poor Immigrant Take 2C
15. I Pity The Poor Immigrant Take 3b
16. I Pity The Poor Immigrant Take 4C
17. I Pity The Poor Immigrant Take 5B
18. I Pity The Poor Immigrant Take 6B
19. I Pity The Poor Immigrant Take 7b
20. I Pity The Poor Immigrant Take 8B
21. I Pity The Poor Immigrant Take 9B
22. I Pity The Poor Immigrant Take 10C

23. I Am A Lonesome Hobo CO120959 Take 1C
24. I Am A Lonesome Hobo Take 2b
25. I Am A Lonesome Hobo Take 3C
26. I Am A Lonesome Hobo Take 4C
27. I Am A Lonesome Hobo Take 5C


Musicians: Charlie McCoy (bass) and Kenneth Buttrey (drums).


A splice of 3 and 5, and 7, 12, 22, 27 released on John Wesley Harding.


For the third session, the session tape has been located but not been available for examination yet:


Studio A
Columbia Recording Studios
Nashville, Tennessee
November 29, 1967, 6:00 - 9:00 pm and 9:00 - 12 midnight.

Produced by Bob Johnston


1. Wicked Messenger CO120960

2. I'll Be Your Baby Tonight CO120961

3. Down Along The Cove CO120962

4. Dear Landlord CO120963


6-9 pm: The Wicked Messenger and I'll Be Your Baby Tonight recorded.
9-12 pm: Down Along The Cove, and Dear Landlord recorded.

Musicians: Charlie McCoy (bass) and Kenneth Buttrey (drums).
9-12: Pete Drake (steel guitar).

All tracks released on John Wesley Harding.


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PostPosted: Fri September 1st, 2017, 21:04 GMT 
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That'll be very unusual from Sony to just give up on the rights of those recordings. Sure, those tapes aren't circulating... YET. But that was said for a lot of Bob's material (last year it was the 1985 After The Empire bootleg and the 1985 Rehearsal Tape).

I mean, why allow Rolling Stone to talk about those sessions from the Tulsa archives if they would just give up on them? Here is the article (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/featu ... ok-w489787)

I think Sony might play games with Bob's fans to hype up BS 13 instead of those copyright extensions. Maybe it is just wishful thinking, but for me it doesn't make sense to release those copyright extensions since 2012 (even though many of the material was never even known by fans), and then just throw away some of his well-known material (you could have unknown Basement Tapes and the JWH sessions).

Maybe having access to the tapes in the archives is considered a release in terms of EU law (I don't think so, but why not)? Maybe they are preparing a website like Neil Young and give restricted access to it (either in time or high price) for late December?

I won't be convinced there are no release of 1967 material until January 1st 2018.


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PostPosted: Fri September 1st, 2017, 23:43 GMT 
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What happens if they don't release a new Copyright Protection but they want to do a Bootleg Series down the line? Will anyone be able to download/resell the songs on it for free since they lost the copyright? Or can they like "reapply" for it?


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PostPosted: Sat September 2nd, 2017, 03:06 GMT 
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The searching for a gem link on the home page alluded to the possibility that it might be a bls release


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PostPosted: Sat September 2nd, 2017, 03:45 GMT 

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thisisjohn wrote:
What happens if they don't release a new Copyright Protection but they want to do a Bootleg Series down the line? Will anyone be able to download/resell the songs on it for free since they lost the copyright? Or can they like "reapply" for it?


They would lose the copyright (EU) if they don't release these tracks by the end of 1967...they couldn't reapply for the copyright.

It's kind of a 50 years "use it or lose it" type of thing...

As long as the EU law remains as-is, if they released these sessions after December 2017, the previously unreleased tracks would be in the EU public domain. The fact that the material shouldn't really factor into their decision at all, imo, unless their interpretation of the EU law has been altered this past year.


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PostPosted: Sat September 2nd, 2017, 04:07 GMT 
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goodmeats wrote:
The searching for a gem link on the home page alluded to the possibility that it might be a bls release

Actually, they said the exact opposite: "but this could also preclude any future Bootleg Series release."

Meaning if they do not release the recordings this year, it would make it impossible to include on a future Bootleg Series release.

I'm not entirely convinced this is true though. Someone else here might have a better understanding?


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PostPosted: Sat September 2nd, 2017, 12:36 GMT 

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mystic garden wrote:
goodmeats wrote:
The searching for a gem link on the home page alluded to the possibility that it might be a bls release

Actually, they said the exact opposite: "but this could also preclude any future Bootleg Series release."

Meaning if they do not release the recordings this year, it would make it impossible to include on a future Bootleg Series release.

I'm not entirely convinced this is true though. Someone else here might have a better understanding?


if they don't release that stuff from 1967 before the end of 2017 they'll lose the copyright and these recordings become public domain in the EU. However this doesn't mean that they can't release it as Bootleg Series anymore. After thees recording have become public domain everybody is allowed to release them – even Sony. But in case they do so (i.e. release previously unused 1967 stuff after 2017) they'll face the risk that anybody is able and allowd to copy the stuff from the offical release and sell it themselves. In short: Since Sony is very well aware of the EU law it would be a foolish move not to release what they have and the have the right to release it in any form they want (for example as an LP box limited to 5 copies). Any commercial release before the end of 2017 will save the copyright!


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PostPosted: Sat September 2nd, 2017, 12:53 GMT 

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slewan wrote:
if they don't release that stuff from 1967 before the end of 2017 they'll lose the copyright and these recordings become public domain in the EU. However this doesn't mean that they can't release it as Bootleg Series anymore. After thees recording have become public domain everybody is allowed to release them – even Sony. But in case they do so (i.e. release previously unused 1967 stuff after 2017) they'll face the risk that anybody is able and allowd to copy the stuff from the offical release and sell it themselves. In short: Since Sony is very well aware of the EU law it would be a foolish move not to release what they have and the have the right to release it in any form they want (for example as an LP box limited to 5 copies). Any commercial release before the end of 2017 will save the copyright!


You can look at it from two sides: Yes, if they don't release this stuff now, it will become Public Domain and could be immediately snapped up by anybody for (legal) commercial release. But also: if they are certain that this stuff isn't out there at all and they have no plans to include it on any future Bootleg Series, why putting it out there (even in limited qualities) and thus putting it in the hands of potential bootleggers (which is what happned with the 1962 set and possibly the others too)?

The other questions are:

1. Why wouldn't they protect the copyright for a future Bootleg Series? Is it possibly, that the other "JWH" takes are just a bunch of incomplete false starts, that - given the sparseness of the arrangements on the finished LP - sound very similiar to what's been released and wouldn't be qute a revelatory as some of the 1965/66 stuff?

2. Do we know what's in Bob's contract? Can he stop Columbia from putting out anything, even if they intended to, to protect their copyright, and the previous sets where put out with his blessing?


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PostPosted: Sat September 2nd, 2017, 13:54 GMT 

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Handsomeinthefog wrote:
slewan wrote:
if they don't release that stuff from 1967 before the end of 2017 they'll lose the copyright and these recordings become public domain in the EU. However this doesn't mean that they can't release it as Bootleg Series anymore. After thees recording have become public domain everybody is allowed to release them – even Sony. But in case they do so (i.e. release previously unused 1967 stuff after 2017) they'll face the risk that anybody is able and allowd to copy the stuff from the offical release and sell it themselves. In short: Since Sony is very well aware of the EU law it would be a foolish move not to release what they have and the have the right to release it in any form they want (for example as an LP box limited to 5 copies). Any commercial release before the end of 2017 will save the copyright!


You can look at it from two sides: Yes, if they don't release this stuff now, it will become Public Domain and could be immediately snapped up by anybody for (legal) commercial release. But also: if they are certain that this stuff isn't out there at all and they have no plans to include it on any future Bootleg Series, why putting it out there (even in limited qualities) and thus putting it in the hands of potential bootleggers (which is what happned with the 1962 set and possibly the others too)?

The other questions are:

1. Why wouldn't they protect the copyright for a future Bootleg Series? Is it possibly, that the other "JWH" takes are just a bunch of incomplete false starts, that - given the sparseness of the arrangements on the finished LP - sound very similiar to what's been released and wouldn't be qute a revelatory as some of the 1965/66 stuff?

2. Do we know what's in Bob's contract? Can he stop Columbia from putting out anything, even if they intended to, to protect their copyright, and the previous sets where put out with his blessing?


well, we don't know what is in Bob's contract.
But: I agree that a reason why Sony does not care about the 1967 copyright could be that these recordings are worthless crap (false starts, as you said), but on the other hand: a lot off people earn money by selling crap.
I also doubt that they really can be sure that the stuff is not "out there" and won't be "out there" in the future. How could they know? These recordings have been around for 50 years and nobody can really say if there isn't a copy in somebody's cellar. The fact that they never surfaced on bootlegs is no guarantee that no copies exist. Just think of the Velvet Underground acetate that surfaced some years ago…


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PostPosted: Sun September 3rd, 2017, 12:37 GMT 

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To not release this simply because the recordings do not circulate among collectors seems like a risky decision. Columbia's vaults used to be wide open, and outtakes from sessions both before and after JWH circulate, so it seems reasonle to expect that some people may indeed have copies, but for some reason never shared. Also, it has been a while since then, but at the time, wasn't there fairly sound speculations that both the 1963 Town Hall and Carnegie Hall shows which suddenly surfaced came via Sony? If so, other recordings may well have leaked in recent years.

According to Krogsgaard's lists there are at least two complete takes of most of the songs on the album, often more than that (at least from the tapes he was able to examine). But perhaps Dylan approached the JWH sessions differently from earlier sessions and this time each take was nearly identical. Perhaps he had a very clear idea of what he wanted the album to sound like, and achieved that on every take. If so, then the commercial value of extending the copyright is likely very little. But if not, and the alternate takes are more than just a little different, then Sony practically prevents any release of these songs for the next 25 years (and who knows, perhaps changes to EU copyright laws will extend that grace period in the future). At least if they want to avoid unofficial but legal distribution. They could, though, if they wanted to, press a tiny amount of copies, like Slewan suggests, and sell them from a select store somewhere, making sure that Sony staff would be first in line, buying up every single copy. Perhaps they could even do it on 3-track reel-to-reel tape or some other virtually unplayable format.

Of course it's impossible for us to know anything about Bob Dylan's contract with Sony, and whether or not he has any final say over how they choose to use his old recordings. But didn't Clive Davis go out of his way to keep Dylan from changing labels back in the 60's, even though Dylan wasn't selling as well as most people would have thought? Perhaps Sony still wants to keep on his good side even if contractually they aren't obligated to do so.


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PostPosted: Sun September 3rd, 2017, 15:51 GMT 
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BenjaminH wrote:

According to Krogsgaard's lists there are at least two complete takes of most of the songs on the album, often more than that (at least from the tapes he was able to examine). But perhaps Dylan approached the JWH sessions differently from earlier sessions and this time each take was nearly identical.


Given the snippets of information coming out of the Tulsa Archives about the JWH sessions from these articles, I'd say there are enough variations for the outtakes to be interesting.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/featu ... ok-w489787

"To guard against bootlegging, the archive will maintain the audio files on a secure, offline network accessible only by three computer terminals at the library. Employees are still in the process of transferring many of the audio files, though they do have John Wesley Harding outtakes that have never been heard by fans. A click on the first take of "As I Went Out One Morning" reveals a drastically slowed-down, dirge-like rendition of the song."

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/ ... n-20160303

"Chaiken has only begun to dip into the hundreds of hours of raw Dylan recording sessions, but he's already come across a completely different version of 1997's Time Out of Mind produced by pianist Jim Dickinson [update: Dickinson denies such a thing exists] and the complete John Wesley Harding sessions. "It's such a mysterious record," he says. "I heard a couple of alternate takes of 'All Along The Watchtower' that were, to me as a fan, just incredible.""


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PostPosted: Sun September 17th, 2017, 10:08 GMT 
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Looking forward to this almost as much as BS13 Gospel set.


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PostPosted: Mon September 18th, 2017, 12:00 GMT 

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mikeja75 wrote:
thisisjohn wrote:
What happens if they don't release a new Copyright Protection but they want to do a Bootleg Series down the line? Will anyone be able to download/resell the songs on it for free since they lost the copyright? Or can they like "reapply" for it?


They would lose the copyright (EU) if they don't release these tracks by the end of 1967...they couldn't reapply for the copyright.

It's kind of a 50 years "use it or lose it" type of thing...

As long as the EU law remains as-is, if they released these sessions after December 2017, the previously unreleased tracks would be in the EU public domain. The fact that the material shouldn't really factor into their decision at all, imo, unless their interpretation of the EU law has been altered this past year.


I guess there's never been a test case but I'd be very surprised if an official Sony release of these tracks in the future would be considered public domain. For circulating tracks, then they certainly go public domain after 50 years but for tracks that no one even knew existed I suspect that an official Sony release would establish copyright for what has now been increased to seventy years. That's how their lawyers are looking at it I would guess. If it wasn't the case then they would be scrambling to release them.

Don't forget that there also definitely unreleased tracks from the Basement Tapes still under lock and key from 67 despite the "complete" title of that Bootleg Series. Sid Griffen's book (for which he was allowed full access to the sessions) makes mention o takes of Wild Wolf which aren't on the Bootleg Series release. Of course, there's zero chance of those takes ever leaking out to be released in the public domain and Sony would have released them already if they were going to.


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PostPosted: Mon September 18th, 2017, 12:59 GMT 
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I have the 1967 JWH out takes in my possession. If the Dylan people don't release that material by the end of this year I will be posting it everywhere.

Dylan people: You have been warned!

(BTW, the out takes are awesome)


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PostPosted: Mon September 18th, 2017, 15:23 GMT 
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Winter Lude wrote:
I have the 1967 JWH out takes in my possession. If the Dylan people don't release that material by the end of this year I will be posting it everywhere.

Dylan people: You have been warned!

(BTW, the out takes are awesome)


It was very kind of you to share these. albeit under cover of secrecy. and I too shall withold my copies until after the copyright has expired, at which time a series of 12" one sided vinyl singles will be released in a drip by drip fashion. Don't say we didn't warn you, Sony.


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PostPosted: Mon September 18th, 2017, 15:46 GMT 

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Wow, what an interesting set of recordings! I'm baffled as to why Sony doesn't think they are commercially viable? I will respect and adhere to your commitment not to share them before the first of the year as well.


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