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PostPosted: Mon December 11th, 2017, 15:12 GMT 

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michpom wrote:
thisisjohn wrote:
Does Columbia even know about this mythical guy that has all these outtakes just sitting on his laptop?

Absolutely: somebody at Sony/Columbia knows that these outtakes are in the hands of this collector, but he is quite trustable and they know he is not open to any discussion for sharing them at any price.
On the other hand he gladly lets people listen to them, as he did last year with me: I spent 2 hours of dream, listening and watching to uncirculating material. But everything is 'for your eyes/ears only'. This was quite a frustrating experience, but once again I can understand the position: he made the promise to not let the tapes circulate, he keeps it.


How does one get in contact with these people?

Without wanting to sound like i am having a dig at these people but I cant these collectors who have these tapes just to say that they have as some sort of bragging right over others fans "i have/heard something you haven."

Much like the recording of lilly rosemary that done the rounds a few months ago, if you have it share it as much as possible and post it all over social media/facebook/twitter/youtube etc


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PostPosted: Mon December 11th, 2017, 17:49 GMT 
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michpom wrote:
Absolutely: somebody at Sony/Columbia knows that these outtakes are in the hands of this collector, but he is quite trustable and they know he is not open to any discussion for sharing them at any price.
On the other hand he gladly lets people listen to them, as he did last year with me: I spent 2 hours of dream, listening and watching to uncirculating material. But everything is 'for your eyes/ears only'. This was quite a frustrating experience, but once again I can understand the position: he made the promise to not let the tapes circulate, he keeps it.

Is his name Bob or Jeff?


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PostPosted: Mon December 11th, 2017, 20:38 GMT 

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who ever has these recordings… There will alaways be a leak – at least some time in the future. And I don't think that Sony will run the risk of losing the copyright of that stuff. Thus they have no choice exept to release it within 20 days in some way and somewhere in Europe. Since they obviously don't consider the stuff to be too worthy and/or relevant to make a bootleg series release of it, I guess they'll either put in on some very limited LP that will his a few selected stores after Christmas or they'll send download codes to people who bought the Trouble No More box at BD.com (just like they did with the 1965 live recordings)


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PostPosted: Mon December 11th, 2017, 21:43 GMT 

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I don't think there will be a copyright release this year.

First of all, ISIS said there won't be. Usually there info is accurate.

Secondly, it's not as if Sony didn't let slip some stuff in the past. For the 1963/64 sets they did NOT release every single take of every song. They simply would do something similar here, as all there is (apparently) would be different takes of already released songs.

Also, talk here seems to focus on JWH. Isn't there a small number of Baseent Tapes that didn't make the "Complete Basement Tapes" set for quality reasons? Would be odd to exlude them from the box and then put them on a separate release? I think they will let those slip and they will do the same with the JHW stuff.

Because let's face it, this stuff has a limited commercial appeal. "Watchtower" and may, just maybe "St. Augsutine" aside all the songs where known alt. takes exist are virtually unknown outside the Dylan hardcore fanbase. And while 1962-65 they had dozens, if not hundreds of recordings to protect, this time it would be what, 8, 10, 12?

Probably costs more to ready them for release than what they stand to lose if some bootlegger seels 500 copies of this stuff. If, and only if they do get there hands on the recordings. And ias far as we know, that is still be big "IF".

Just my 2 cents.


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PostPosted: Mon December 11th, 2017, 23:43 GMT 
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To the argument (posed by people here and Dylan "sources" in a couple of articles) that the JWH sessions won't be protected by a Copyright Extension release because there isn't much of interest in the outtakes, I find it curious that three times in the past couple of years, the JWH tapes have been cited as one of the highlights of the new Tulsa Archive. Here are the relevant quotes:

(1) Chaiken has only begun to dip into the hundreds of hours of raw Dylan recording sessions, but he's already come across a completely different version of 1997's Time Out of Mind produced by pianist Jim Dickinson and the complete John Wesley Harding sessions. "It's such a mysterious record," he says. "I heard a couple of alternate takes of 'All Along The Watchtower' that were, to me as a fan, just incredible."

(2) Chaiken found himself doing a deep dive on the sessions that would become the album titled "John Wesley Harding." "To hear the alternate versions to 'All Along the Watchtower,' it was amazing," Chaiken said. "He's like a Miles Davis character when he goes into the studio, there's so much improvisation going on and moving things around, trying to find the rhythm."

(3) To guard against bootlegging, the archive will maintain the audio files on a secure, offline network accessible only by three computer terminals at the library. Employees are still in the process of transferring many of the audio files, though they do have John Wesley Harding outtakes that have never been heard by fans. A click on the first take of "As I Went Out One Morning" reveals a drastically slowed-down, dirge-like rendition of the song.

As an owner of the 18-CD version of BS12, where literally dozens of takes consist of repetitive (and incomplete) versions of the same arrangements of the songs that ended up as the "masters," I can't understand why they wouldn't want to similarly protect the outtakes of one of his greatest albums -- no less great, imo, than Blonde On Blonde or Highway 61 Revisited. I'll admit that it doesn't look like anything is forthcoming this year, but then again, a "secret release" ALWAYS looks like it isn't happening -- until it does.


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PostPosted: Tue December 12th, 2017, 00:11 GMT 
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Sean Murdock wrote:
To the argument (posed by people here and Dylan "sources" in a couple of articles) that the JWH sessions won't be protected by a Copyright Extension release because there isn't much of interest in the outtakes, I find it curious that three times in the past couple of years, the JWH tapes have been cited as one of the highlights of the new Tulsa Archive.


I think that they are trying to hype up the material, because they know it will remain exclusive to them (e.g. there will be no "1967 Anniversary Collection") and they will have the chance to create an exhibition around it.


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PostPosted: Tue December 12th, 2017, 01:46 GMT 
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Handsomeinthefog wrote:
I don't think there will be a copyright release this year.

First of all, ISIS said there won't be. Usually there info is accurate.

Secondly, it's not as if Sony didn't let slip some stuff in the past. For the 1963/64 sets they did NOT release every single take of every song. They simply would do something similar here, as all there is (apparently) would be different takes of already released songs.

Also, talk here seems to focus on JWH. Isn't there a small number of Baseent Tapes that didn't make the "Complete Basement Tapes" set for quality reasons? Would be odd to exlude them from the box and then put them on a separate release? I think they will let those slip and they will do the same with the JHW stuff.

Because let's face it, this stuff has a limited commercial appeal. "Watchtower" and may, just maybe "St. Augsutine" aside all the songs where known alt. takes exist are virtually unknown outside the Dylan hardcore fanbase. And while 1962-65 they had dozens, if not hundreds of recordings to protect, this time it would be what, 8, 10, 12?

Probably costs more to ready them for release than what they stand to lose if some bootlegger seels 500 copies of this stuff. If, and only if they do get there hands on the recordings. And ias far as we know, that is still be big "IF".

Just my 2 cents.



Also, most people were not too enthused about "Big Blue".


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PostPosted: Tue December 12th, 2017, 01:52 GMT 
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Why would they bother releasing anything now since they have everything in Tulsa.


They can release The Bootleg Series whenever they would like or not.

If people would like to listen; they are hoping/counting on people making the Journey.


but we can all:


https://youtu.be/1k8craCGpgs


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PostPosted: Tue December 12th, 2017, 19:53 GMT 
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My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:
Sean Murdock wrote:
To the argument (posed by people here and Dylan "sources" in a couple of articles) that the JWH sessions won't be protected by a Copyright Extension release because there isn't much of interest in the outtakes, I find it curious that three times in the past couple of years, the JWH tapes have been cited as one of the highlights of the new Tulsa Archive.


I think that they are trying to hype up the material, because they know it will remain exclusive to them (e.g. there will be no "1967 Anniversary Collection") and they will have the chance to create an exhibition around it.

Hmm ... could be, but there's still the matter of the recordings falling into the Public Domain in the EU if they are not protected / extended this year. Do they believe that housing the tapes in a museum constitutes a "release" that would qualify under the EU directive? I don't expect Dylan Inc. to say anything on the record about all this, so most likely in three weeks we'll be left to (imperfectly) interpret their action or inaction. Some clarity would be super, but if there's a secret surprise coming on December 29th, all would be forgiven!


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PostPosted: Tue December 12th, 2017, 23:26 GMT 
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@Sean Murdoch

EU law says the recording must be "lawfully communicated/published to the public" within 50 years "after fixation" (recording date) in order to extend the copyright to 70 years (from the date of communication/publication). It could be argued that a presentation at a museum constitutes a "lawful communication/publication to the public", but for the JWH outtakes it would have to come before 2018 and I do not see that happening.

I think that the Dylan organization/Columbia/Sony will let the material fall into the public domain, because it is not circulating and therefore out of reach of the public domain labels and it is not considered important/interesting enough for future commercial exploitation as a Sony product. They already have many much more interesting projects stockpiled. Just because the material does exist, does not mean they have to release it. Any future use of the JWH outtakes (and similar caches of material) will most likely be confined to the Tulsa Archive/future Museum in a context where it cannot be copied.


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PostPosted: Wed December 13th, 2017, 03:08 GMT 

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Here's a hypothetical for everybody:

Since Sony did go out of the way to preserve their copyright in Dylan's 1962-63 recordings via the "Copyright Extension/50th Anniversary" sets, should this mean that a future "Bootleg Series" release of "Freewheelin'" outtakes is a possibility?

Would such a vault title be somehow tainted by the fact that it technically contained no previously unreleased material--or would Dylan fans be eager to own a recording of Bob singing "That's All Right, Mama" on some format other than an MP3?

This past summer, Somy re-released their Elvis Presley boxed set "A Boy From Tupelo", originally released in 2012 as a high-end $100+ limited edition box as an $25 3-disc set, despite the fact that everything in the set is in the public domain over in Europe, and that the 2012 box was immediately copied and re-released by at least one EU label. However...is it possible that the demand for grey-area EU releases just isn't all that strong? If, in five or ten years, Sony releases a boxed set which includes a half-dozen JWH outtakes, how much do they really stand to lose if an EU label cherry-picks those six songs and releases them along with, I don't know, Carolyn Hester's 1962 album?

I'm sure that Sony has crunched all these numbers by now, although I can only guess what they've determined. Something tells me they kept an eye on the torrenting which occurred in the wake of the first three copyright extension sets, and as a result went ahead and gave away the 1965 downloads with a pretty good idea of how many people would ultimately be able to obtain them via torrents and file-sharing. But I have no idea. Mostly, I'm just extremely curious about the whole thing.


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PostPosted: Wed December 13th, 2017, 03:20 GMT 

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one of the news stories in Rolling Stone (in the 2015 or 2016 one, i forget) had their "source" (Rosen) saying that among other projects (that have been listed here and elsewhere), an early coffeeshop days (covering the period you speak of, naturally) set would be fun to do. this is, of course, a few years after the copyright releases of those tapes. of course it would sell. just as well or maybe even better (because of the time period covered) than some of the other sets. most people that would buy the set probably haven't torrented the copyright sets or heard this stuff on bootlegs over the years and 3/4 of the ones that had would shell out for the cleaned up sound, fancy books and curation.

at least if they do this within the next, say, 5 years or so.


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PostPosted: Wed December 13th, 2017, 04:31 GMT 

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I don't think I should allow myself to become greedy. Even with music. There has to be a point where I have enough Dylan. I worry about the consequences of insatiability. That one Watchtower on JWH has always been good enough. It's more than good enough. I should be satisfied.


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PostPosted: Wed December 13th, 2017, 15:43 GMT 
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If the recordings exist at the Tulsa archive, then eventually they will leak. It will probably be similar to the Karen Wallace armpit tape, but with modern technology. This recording will be made with a wireless hearing aid device.


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PostPosted: Wed December 13th, 2017, 19:59 GMT 

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the only way to keep the copyright without releasing anything seems to count the Tulsa Archive as a commercial use of the recordings. But I doubt that they'll get away with than


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PostPosted: Wed December 13th, 2017, 23:23 GMT 
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Winter Lude wrote:
If the recordings exist at the Tulsa archive, then eventually they will leak. It will probably be similar to the Karen Wallace armpit tape, but with modern technology. This recording will be made with a wireless hearing aid device.


Don't give them any hints about where to search ... ;-)


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PostPosted: Thu December 14th, 2017, 16:30 GMT 
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My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:
@Sean Murdoch

EU law says the recording must be "lawfully communicated/published to the public" within 50 years "after fixation" (recording date) in order to extend the copyright to 70 years (from the date of communication/publication). It could be argued that a presentation at a museum constitutes a "lawful communication/publication to the public", but for the JWH outtakes it would have to come before 2018 and I do not see that happening.

I think that the Dylan organization/Columbia/Sony will let the material fall into the public domain, because it is not circulating and therefore out of reach of the public domain labels and it is not considered important/interesting enough for future commercial exploitation as a Sony product. They already have many much more interesting projects stockpiled. Just because the material does exist, does not mean they have to release it. Any future use of the JWH outtakes (and similar caches of material) will most likely be confined to the Tulsa Archive/future Museum in a context where it cannot be copied.

Yes, I have wondered whether making the JWH tapes available through the Tulsa museum might allow Dylan Inc. some short-cut to avoid perpetual "Copyright Extension" releases. There are a couple of problems, though -- (1) Tulsa won't be open to the general public before 2018 (scholars and journalists only), and (2) "releasing" them in Tulsa doesn't release them in the EU, which is what the EU Directive cares about. As to the JWH outtakes not being "important" or "interesting" enough to protect, well that just baffles me completely. (I know that is your guess at Dylan Inc.'s position, not necessarily your opinion.) Maybe their priorities have shifted, but five years ago they certainly deemed ALL of Bob's studio outtakes to be important enough to protect, and I would take one single JWH outtake over innumerable takes of "Mixed Up Confusion" or "Sally Gal." (No offense to those tracks, which I am happy to have.) John Wesley Harding is still easily one of Bob's top 10 best and most important albums, and its outtakes are every bit as worthy of extension as the dozens (hundreds?) of 1965-66 outtakes I paid good coin for a couple of years ago.

Two weeks to go....


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PostPosted: Thu December 14th, 2017, 16:36 GMT 
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Hank wrote:
Here's a hypothetical for everybody:

Since Sony did go out of the way to preserve their copyright in Dylan's 1962-63 recordings via the "Copyright Extension/50th Anniversary" sets, should this mean that a future "Bootleg Series" release of "Freewheelin'" outtakes is a possibility?

Would such a vault title be somehow tainted by the fact that it technically contained no previously unreleased material--or would Dylan fans be eager to own a recording of Bob singing "That's All Right, Mama" on some format other than an MP3?

This past summer, Somy re-released their Elvis Presley boxed set "A Boy From Tupelo", originally released in 2012 as a high-end $100+ limited edition box as an $25 3-disc set, despite the fact that everything in the set is in the public domain over in Europe, and that the 2012 box was immediately copied and re-released by at least one EU label. However...is it possible that the demand for grey-area EU releases just isn't all that strong? If, in five or ten years, Sony releases a boxed set which includes a half-dozen JWH outtakes, how much do they really stand to lose if an EU label cherry-picks those six songs and releases them along with, I don't know, Carolyn Hester's 1962 album?

I'm sure that Sony has crunched all these numbers by now, although I can only guess what they've determined. Something tells me they kept an eye on the torrenting which occurred in the wake of the first three copyright extension sets, and as a result went ahead and gave away the 1965 downloads with a pretty good idea of how many people would ultimately be able to obtain them via torrents and file-sharing. But I have no idea. Mostly, I'm just extremely curious about the whole thing.

To your first question, yes, I think a "Complete Freewheelin' Sessions" Bootleg Series is a viable (and possible) future release -- and one of the reasons why they started extending the copyright of all these recordings in the first place. If you look at the session details for Freewheelin', it would make an absolutely fascinating and rewarding release, even if all of it has been "released" in one form or another. To have it all in one coherent package would be very nice, and I think fans would buy it to get those "Copyright Extension" tracks on a "real" Dylan release.

As for the future release of PD material (like the JWH outtakes, if not protected), perhaps they will take the approach that Apple seems to have taken with their unprotected Beatles outtakes. They know that any official, Apple-branded product will dwarf any subsequent gray-market rip-offs -- and they could always try to crush them with lawsuits if they were a little TOO successful.


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PostPosted: Thu December 14th, 2017, 16:38 GMT 
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slewan wrote:
the only way to keep the copyright without releasing anything seems to count the Tulsa Archive as a commercial use of the recordings. But I doubt that they'll get away with that.

"Releasing" them in Tulsa won't satisfy the EU requirements for releasing them in the EU, for starters.


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PostPosted: Thu December 14th, 2017, 16:41 GMT 
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Ghost Of Lectricity wrote:
I don't think I should allow myself to become greedy. Even with music. There has to be a point where I have enough Dylan. I worry about the consequences of insatiability. That one Watchtower on JWH has always been good enough. It's more than good enough. I should be satisfied.

This is a very fair point, and even though I post about this topic and think about it a lot, if January 1st comes and goes with no release, life will go on. I still haven't completely grappled with Bootleg Series 13 yet -- heck, I'm still working on BS12! Double-heck -- I just discovered a song on BS10 that I forgot was on it! We've all got more than enough Dylan to last our lifetimes. Not that I want them to stop releasing stuff!


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PostPosted: Fri December 15th, 2017, 15:32 GMT 
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Sean Murdock wrote:
-- We've all got more than enough Dylan to last our lifetimes.
Not that I want them to stop releasing stuff!

Yes and Yes!

Coming into the homestretch with only half a month left.


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 05:50 GMT 

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Beginning to lose hope... Surely they aren't going to take the gamble of not releasing these.


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 13:48 GMT 
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I got an email this morning from bobdylan.com

I thought it was the download code for the new copyright protection release.

But they only wanted to sell me another BS13 as a christmas gift for somebody.


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 13:56 GMT 

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if you want to hear them (JWH outtakes) come to NYC and pay a visit to mr. b.


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PostPosted: Wed December 20th, 2017, 19:05 GMT 
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oldfan wrote:
if you want to hear them (JWH outtakes) come to NYC and pay a visit to mr. b.


Where do we find this Mr. B?


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