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Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?
http://www.expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=91085
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Author:  pol2jem [ Mon July 24th, 2017, 15:50 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

eltedioso wrote:
Anr Bjotk wrote:
Wait, what? So the 4th December Berkeley show from "1965 Revisited" is actually San Jose 12 December? And that was recorded by Ginsberg?
Are the Ginsberg tapes 11/12 december circulated or not? Confused... :?


The previously circulated "Berkeley" material is from San Jose, yes. And only half the show circulated previously, where the whole show was archived. Was the previously circulating material sourced from Ginsberg's tape or a separate source? That's unclear to me. Either way, the newly-digitized tape is supposedly an upgrade in sound quality.

Actual Berkeley tape, on the other hand, is now not thought to exist at all.


The previously circulated "04 December Berkeley" material, which is actually 12 December San Jose, was not from a separate source but it was presented in lesser quality. The performance was officially copyrighted (although still labelled as Berkeley) on the '65 Copyright Collection download given to those who purchased Big Blue in 2015. There were other mis-labellings on that collection; I seem to recall that Bob Stacy provided a synopsis somewhere in this forum at the time, probably in the "Discuss Rare Recordings" section.

The Ginsberg tapes (11 December San Francisco and 12 December San Jose) have been digitised by, and are held at, Stanford Libraries:-

http://library.stanford.edu/blogs/digit ... erg-papers


#

Author:  smoke [ Mon July 24th, 2017, 16:37 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

If these don't leak will Stanford establish a weed smoking room?

Author:  pol2jem [ Mon July 24th, 2017, 19:29 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

smoke wrote:
If these don't leak will Stanford establish a weed smoking room?


I believe you're required to take a shower in this at the front door so the tapes aren't contaminated:-

Image

Author:  Anr Bjotk [ Tue July 25th, 2017, 05:50 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

eltedioso wrote:
Anr Bjotk wrote:
Wait, what? So the 4th December Berkeley show from "1965 Revisited" is actually San Jose 12 December? And that was recorded by Ginsberg?
Are the Ginsberg tapes 11/12 december circulated or not? Confused... :?


The previously circulated "Berkeley" material is from San Jose, yes. And only half the show circulated previously, where the whole show was archived. Was the previously circulating material sourced from Ginsberg's tape or a separate source? That's unclear to me. Either way, the newly-digitized tape is supposedly an upgrade in sound quality.

Actual Berkeley tape, on the other hand, is now not thought to exist at all.


I see. But who is digitizing and releasing these? Sony?

Author:  smiley [ Tue July 25th, 2017, 05:55 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

"to be made public" could mean public access via appointment. Not necessarily a commercial release.

Author:  gibsona07 [ Tue July 25th, 2017, 12:00 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

smiley wrote:
"to be made public" could mean public access via appointment. Not necessarily a commercial release.


It's already accessible to the public if you visit Stanford library.

It also should be pointed out that these recordings are now public domain in Europe.

Author:  pol2jem [ Tue July 25th, 2017, 16:59 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

gibsona07 wrote:
smiley wrote:
"to be made public" could mean public access via appointment. Not necessarily a commercial release.


It's already accessible to the public if you visit Stanford library.

It also should be pointed out that these recordings are now public domain in Europe.


The San Jose electric set is not public domain. That was featured on the Live '65 Copyright Collection download, albeit labelled as Berkeley. I don't think a mislabelling of the venue interferes with the copyright, although I'm open to ridicule on this legal matter. :)

Author:  pol2jem [ Wed July 26th, 2017, 19:32 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

A new discussion was started on SHF for those who maintain interest in this subject:-

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/b ... ur.685611/

Author:  pol2jem [ Fri July 28th, 2017, 16:24 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

To introduce a little more mystery to the "Which one is Berkeley...?" question, I just noticed this at the foot of the relevant page at Searching For A Gem, here:-

http://www.searchingforagem.com/2010s/2 ... hAnniv.htm

Quote:-

The Berkeley tape was recorded by Allen Ginsberg. However, Stephan Pickering says:

"Allen Ginsberg donated almost all of his archive to Stanford University's Special Collections.

MO 733, Ginsberg Papers Subseries 11.b. Reel-to-reel tapes; 7 in.

Box 119, Reel 7. "Bob Dylan, San José, CA, Civic Auditorium, 12 December 1965"

Box 134, Reel 5. "San Francisco, CA, Dylan undated" [AG had identified this tape as Berkeley 4 December 1965 after it was catalogued as 'San Francisco, Dylan undated.']

Box 120, Reel 1: "[Untitled] 1965 Dec 12"

I have not had the opportunity to listen to Box 120 Reel 1, and I would like to know who has reidentified these tapes, and on what documentary basis. No doubt, these are the Stanford archived tape reels. This means the Berkeley 4 December 1965 (Box 134 Reel 5) released by Jeff Rosen is actually 11 December 1965 San Francisco. What happened to 4 December 1965 Berkeley? I was there, and saw Reb Allen taping the electric segment, the acoustic 'Freeze Out' premiered that night, but he wasn't able to tape it."


Unquote


So, it seems Allen Ginsberg himself suggested that the undated San Francisco tape was Berkeley. The reason we believe that the San Francisco tape is San Francisco is that AG asks Bob where he is playing next during their backstage conversation and the answer is "San Jose", and the tour dates support that assertion.

It seems clear that the San Jose tape is definitely San Jose. The information contained in the fan interviews AG conducted prior to and after the show confirm that they are outside the Civic Auditorium. Also Bob confirms to AG during their interval conversation here that his next show is at Long Beach which again fits the tour schedule (although for some reason the Long Beach show on 17 December is not included at bobdylan.com.)

However, it does seem that there is another tape, Box 120, Reel 1: "[Untitled] 1965 Dec 12", that perhaps hasn't been digitised yet, or perhaps is not being offered as a listening experience to visitors to the Library. As Stephan reports that he saw AG taping the electric set at Berkeley (but not the acoustic set at which "Visions of Johanna" was premiered), I think one should assume that this mystery reel is actually the Berkeley electric set.

Author:  Anr Bjotk [ Fri July 28th, 2017, 16:59 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

pol2jem wrote:

So, it seems Allen Ginsberg himself suggested that the undated San Francisco tape was Berkeley. The reason we believe that the San Francisco tape is San Francisco is that AG asks Bob where he is playing next during their backstage conversation and the answer is "San Jose", and the tour dates support that assertion.

It seems clear that the San Jose tape is definitely San Jose. The information contained in the fan interviews AG conducted prior to and after the show confirm that they are outside the Civic Auditorium. Also Bob confirms to AG during their interval conversation here that his next show is at Long Beach which again fits the tour schedule (although for some reason the Long Beach show on 17 December is not included at bobdylan.com.)

However, it does seem that there is another tape, Box 120, Reel 1: "[Untitled] 1965 Dec 12", that perhaps hasn't been digitised yet, or perhaps is not being offered as a listening experience to visitors to the Library. As Stephan reports that he saw AG taping the electric set at Berkeley (but not the acoustic set at which "Visions of Johanna" was premiered), I think one should assume that this mystery reel is actually the Berkeley electric set.



Is the backstage chat with Ginsy already made public or will it be? It'd chop of my left leg to see or hear that...

Author:  eltedioso [ Fri July 28th, 2017, 18:49 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

pol2jem wrote:
To introduce a little more mystery to the "Which one is Berkeley...?" question, I just noticed this at the foot of the relevant page at Searching For A Gem, here:-

http://www.searchingforagem.com/2010s/2 ... hAnniv.htm

Quote:-

The Berkeley tape was recorded by Allen Ginsberg. However, Stephan Pickering says:

"Allen Ginsberg donated almost all of his archive to Stanford University's Special Collections.

MO 733, Ginsberg Papers Subseries 11.b. Reel-to-reel tapes; 7 in.

Box 119, Reel 7. "Bob Dylan, San José, CA, Civic Auditorium, 12 December 1965"

Box 134, Reel 5. "San Francisco, CA, Dylan undated" [AG had identified this tape as Berkeley 4 December 1965 after it was catalogued as 'San Francisco, Dylan undated.']

Box 120, Reel 1: "[Untitled] 1965 Dec 12"

I have not had the opportunity to listen to Box 120 Reel 1, and I would like to know who has reidentified these tapes, and on what documentary basis. No doubt, these are the Stanford archived tape reels. This means the Berkeley 4 December 1965 (Box 134 Reel 5) released by Jeff Rosen is actually 11 December 1965 San Francisco. What happened to 4 December 1965 Berkeley? I was there, and saw Reb Allen taping the electric segment, the acoustic 'Freeze Out' premiered that night, but he wasn't able to tape it."


Unquote


So, it seems Allen Ginsberg himself suggested that the undated San Francisco tape was Berkeley. The reason we believe that the San Francisco tape is San Francisco is that AG asks Bob where he is playing next during their backstage conversation and the answer is "San Jose", and the tour dates support that assertion.

It seems clear that the San Jose tape is definitely San Jose. The information contained in the fan interviews AG conducted prior to and after the show confirm that they are outside the Civic Auditorium. Also Bob confirms to AG during their interval conversation here that his next show is at Long Beach which again fits the tour schedule (although for some reason the Long Beach show on 17 December is not included at bobdylan.com.)

However, it does seem that there is another tape, Box 120, Reel 1: "[Untitled] 1965 Dec 12", that perhaps hasn't been digitised yet, or perhaps is not being offered as a listening experience to visitors to the Library. As Stephan reports that he saw AG taping the electric set at Berkeley (but not the acoustic set at which "Visions of Johanna" was premiered), I think one should assume that this mystery reel is actually the Berkeley electric set.


As a rule, I don't trust Pickering's research. It seems like he's actually wrong most of the time, in fact.

Author:  Anr Bjotk [ Fri July 28th, 2017, 20:22 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

eltedioso wrote:
As a rule, I don't trust Pickering's research. It seems like he's actually wrong most of the time, in fact.


Oh snap! Them's fightin' words... Shizz just got real. Etc.

Author:  eltedioso [ Fri July 28th, 2017, 20:55 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

Anr Bjotk wrote:
eltedioso wrote:
As a rule, I don't trust Pickering's research. It seems like he's actually wrong most of the time, in fact.


Oh snap! Them's fightin' words... Shizz just got real. Etc.


Since he doesn't hang out on the boards anymore, I think we're okay. (Not trying to stir up old drama either -- just pointing out that he's not a reliable source).

Author:  asdf29 [ Fri July 28th, 2017, 21:41 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

Right or wrong about details, SP is the one who pointed out the existence of the Ginsberg tapes in the Stanford collection. I would thank him for that, and move on to hoping these are released with all the talking and interviews. That would make a fascinating release.

Author:  jman [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 15:50 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

Hello! xx

Author:  slimtimslide [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 16:25 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

jman wrote:
Hello! xx



:D :D :D

Author:  wormington [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 16:49 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

I don´t have access to that site. can some kind soul copy paste?

Author:  eltedioso [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 17:10 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

wormington wrote:
I don´t have access to that site. can some kind soul copy paste?


It's all transferring VERY slow on my torrent software. And unless the one(?!) seed gets online soon, I think most of us peers won't reach 100%.

Author:  wormington [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 17:12 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

Mmmmh... So how is this being released, assuming we know yet?

Author:  eltedioso [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 17:13 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

wormington wrote:
Mmmmh... So how is this being released, assuming we know yet?


Fan community. Like the old days. Torrents, even!
(the post a few above yours, with a hyperlink, can serve as a road map).

Author:  wormington [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 17:15 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

I hope we will get one fine day a proper hard release, nick packaging and all.
I am no good for mp3s

Author:  eltedioso [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 17:25 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

wormington wrote:
I hope we will get one fine day a proper hard release, nick packaging and all.
I am no good for mp3s


I'm reserving my judgment until I actually hear the recordings, but I just don't believe they're physical-release-worthy in sonic terms.

Author:  pol2jem [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 18:19 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

eltedioso wrote:
wormington wrote:
I hope we will get one fine day a proper hard release, nick packaging and all.
I am no good for mp3s


I'm reserving my judgment until I actually hear the recordings, but I just don't believe they're physical-release-worthy in sonic terms.


It depends on how high your expectations are, I suppose, and whether physical media holds any aesthetic value for you.

It's a 1965 front-row-of-the-audience single-track mono recording, taped with the artist's knowledge in a 3000-seater hall on a $500 Uher 4000 Report S portable reel-to-reel tape recorder running at a slower-than-optimum-speed (possibly as low as 15/16ths i.p.s. and never more than 3.75 i.p.s.), with a poorly-placed microphone in the hands of someone who is not overly familiar with its functions and who is often pressing "Pause" between songs.

Sonically, the early recordings in The 1966 Live Recordings box are much worse. The later Richard Alderson Nagra recordings in The 1966 Live Recordings are much better.

#

Author:  wormington [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 18:34 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

You´re doing a lousy job selling then, pol2jem!

Author:  pol2jem [ Wed August 2nd, 2017, 18:53 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Unheard 1965 concerts being made public soon?

wormington wrote:
You´re doing a lousy job selling then, pol2jem!


:lol: I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I'm not trying to sell them, but historically they are very important documents and certainly deserve to be discussed further if they do emerge.

San Francisco contains the earliest known live recording of "Visions of Johanna", introduced by the artist as "Alcatraz To The 9th Power Revisited", and the San Jose electric set is the one we all knew as Berkeley. (Whisper it quietly, but the SJ electric set is of better sonic quality than the official release contained on the '65 Copyright Collection download.)

Although I sometimes think that history is overrated (after all history is just one thing happening after another, and it's happening all the time), these recordings are Historic. Performance quality and the place in history can occasionally be more important than sonic quality.

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