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PostPosted: Thu June 15th, 2017, 19:41 GMT 
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mystic garden wrote:
amonmarktalk wrote:
Well, I would like to see the still missing tunes of The Basement Tapes, that were not included in the "Complete Box"! :-D Is this possible?

What missing songs do you speak of?


There are a bunch of them discussed by Sid Griffin in his revised "Million Dollar Bash" book. Most are in, apparently, poor sound quality (probably even worse than those on Disc 6 on the official Deluxe release, but not so bad that Sid couldn't identify and describe them in his book).

Sid listened to everything when he visited Bob's office. When I spoke to him about the missing tracks soon after the release of the so-called Complete 6CD Bootleg Series set, Sid indicated that he had advised Bob's people to release everything, regardless of the quality. He didn't know why they hadn't heeded his advice.


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PostPosted: Wed June 28th, 2017, 16:59 GMT 

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Just a snippet from Rolling Stone about the new Tulsa archives:

"To guard against bootlegging, the archive will maintain the audio files on a secure, offline network accessible only by three computer terminals at the library. Employees are still in the process of transferring many of the audio files, though they do have John Wesley Harding outtakes that have never been heard by fans. A click on the first take of "As I Went Out One Morning" reveals a drastically slowed-down, dirge-like rendition of the song."

I'd love to hear that version, it must be very eerie. Also even if there's only a handful of outtakes, some of which can be accessed in the archives, I still hope they get released this year.


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PostPosted: Tue July 18th, 2017, 05:25 GMT 
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ShotofMercy wrote:
Just a snippet from Rolling Stone about the new Tulsa archives:

"To guard against bootlegging, the archive will maintain the audio files on a secure, offline network accessible only by three computer terminals at the library. Employees are still in the process of transferring many of the audio files, though they do have John Wesley Harding outtakes that have never been heard by fans. A click on the first take of "As I Went Out One Morning" reveals a drastically slowed-down, dirge-like rendition of the song."

I'd love to hear that version, it must be very eerie. Also even if there's only a handful of outtakes, some of which can be accessed in the archives, I still hope they get released this year.

I'd love to hear that as well, although I'm not that a big supporter of hearing loads of JWH outtakes I'd still prefer it to The Gospel Era!


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PostPosted: Tue July 18th, 2017, 07:50 GMT 

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What I don''t understand is there's been stuff on other copyright releases that, as far as I'm aware, had never circulated either like Royal Festival Hall on the '64 release.


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PostPosted: Tue July 18th, 2017, 16:36 GMT 
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bobfan wrote:
What I don''t understand is there's been stuff on other copyright releases that, as far as I'm aware, had never circulated either like Royal Festival Hall on the '64 release.


And the October 1965 Carnegie Hall show...


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PostPosted: Tue July 18th, 2017, 16:57 GMT 
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bobfan wrote:
What I don''t understand is there's been stuff on other copyright releases that, as far as I'm aware, had never circulated either like Royal Festival Hall on the '64 release.


The Royal Festival Hall '64 material and other recordings that did not circulate were included with the "Anniversary Collections", because copies of the material were in the hands of collectors or were thought to be in the hands of collectors. They were not circulating freely, but copies were out there (or suspected to be out there) and thus the material was "not safe". I think that with the "Anniversary Collections" the policy is "if in doubt, release in order to secure copyright".
As to the "John Wesley Harding" sessions, Dylan's people apparently are sure that no copies ever escaped the vaults. So, no need to secure copyrights. This also means that they do not intend to commercially exploit the material in the near future (probably because there are not a lot of outtakes and the existing outtakes are similar to the released takes). The "John Wesley Harding" sessions (and similar batches of material) will probably be made available to the public in one way or another at the Tulsa Archive at some point.


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PostPosted: Tue July 18th, 2017, 17:19 GMT 
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pol2jem wrote:
bobfan wrote:
What I don''t understand is there's been stuff on other copyright releases that, as far as I'm aware, had never circulated either like Royal Festival Hall on the '64 release.


And the October 1965 Carnegie Hall show...


The situation with Carnegie Hall '65 is that the tape is in the hands of collectors (along with a tape of the preceding rehearsals – both not circulating, though), so one would have expected Dylan's people to include the material with the "Anniversary Collection 1965". The fact that the recordings were not included seems to indicate that Dylan's people do not have access to the tapes. I think that the original tapes (not copies) made their way from the estate of Albert Grossman straight into the hands of the super collectors (Dylan's people never had the tapes). The tapes were first mentioned not long after the passing of Albert Grossman, so draw your own conclusions ... There is a rumour that Albert Grossman also had a professional recording of the Forest Hills 1965 show. Given the importance of the Forest Hills show, I would be surprised if Grossman did not arrange for the show to be recorded. Since the "Anniversary Collection" included an audience recording of the show, it seems that Dylan's office does not have a professional recording of the show, if it was ever made.


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PostPosted: Tue July 18th, 2017, 18:29 GMT 
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My Echo, My Shadow And Me wrote:
pol2jem wrote:

And the October 1965 Carnegie Hall show...


The situation with Carnegie Hall '65 is that the tape is in the hands of collectors (along with a tape of the preceding rehearsals – both not circulating, though), so one would have expected Dylan's people to include the material with the "Anniversary Collection 1965". The fact that the recordings were not included seems to indicate that Dylan's people do not have access to the tapes. I think that the original tapes (not copies) made their way from the estate of Albert Grossman straight into the hands of the super collectors (Dylan's people never had the tapes). The tapes were first mentioned not long after the passing of Albert Grossman, so draw your own conclusions ... There is a rumour that Albert Grossman also had a professional recording of the Forest Hills 1965 show. Given the importance of the Forest Hills show, I would be surprised if Grossman did not arrange for the show to be recorded. Since the "Anniversary Collection" included an audience recording of the show, it seems that Dylan's office does not have a professional recording of the show, if it was ever made.


Exactly; I'm sure that Carnegie Hall and the rehearsals would have been included on the '65 Copyright Collection if they had been available to Bob's people. (Will we ever find out whether the rumoured "Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window?" was featured in that show? I certainly hope so....)

The same can be said about the 11 December, 1965 San Francisco show and the 12 December, 1965 San Jose show, both of which were taped by Allen Ginsberg with the artist's permission and are in pretty good quality. The San Francisco show has the first known live recording of his newly-minted comedy song, "Visions of Johanna", which Bob introduces as "Alcatraz To The 9th Power Revisited". The gag, "This never happens to my electric guitar...", so familiar during the 1966 World Tour, appears during the tuning for "Love Minus Zero Divided By No Limit" at San Jose. Those tapes reside in the Ginsberg Archives at Stanford University. The San Jose electric set is the one that has been mis-labelled as "Berkeley" all these years, but it is in much better sound quality on the Stanford tapes than on the boots or the '65 Copyright Collection.

#


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PostPosted: Tue July 18th, 2017, 18:58 GMT 

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bobfan wrote:
What I don''t understand is there's been stuff on other copyright releases that, as far as I'm aware, had never circulated either like Royal Festival Hall on the '64 release.


Sony needs to release the recordings now in some form if they intend to make money on them at some point in the future. So if indeed they have alternate takes or even outtakes interesting enough to release later on, they need to have them "re-copyrighted" now, before the 50 years limit, otherwise the recordings will be free to re-market/sell for anyone once they finally appear. So even if no collectors have a copy hidden somewhere, it makes sense to do another copyright extension set simply to secure potential commercial use in the future.


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PostPosted: Wed July 19th, 2017, 18:16 GMT 
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BenjaminH wrote:
bobfan wrote:
What I don''t understand is there's been stuff on other copyright releases that, as far as I'm aware, had never circulated either like Royal Festival Hall on the '64 release.


Sony needs to release the recordings now in some form if they intend to make money on them at some point in the future. So if indeed they have alternate takes or even outtakes interesting enough to release later on, they need to have them "re-copyrighted" now, before the 50 years limit, otherwise the recordings will be free to re-market/sell for anyone once they finally appear. So even if no collectors have a copy hidden somewhere, it makes sense to do another copyright extension set simply to secure potential commercial use in the future.



Not necessarily. It is true that if Sony releases the JWH outtakes this year, in any form and in any quantity, then the copyright is protected for a potential mainstream release at some point in the future. But if Dylan Inc. doesn't release the outtakes this year (and they are confident that no one has copies of the tapes) they still have the option of releasing them in desirable packaging at a moment of their choosing. I would posit that Sony will still sell boatloads of the official package.

Once, or if, the Sony package is released (bear in mind that "a source close to Bob Dylan" has said that the JWH outtakes will not be released in any form), an independent merchant would have an opportunity to copy and re-market the outtakes if they are not copyright protected, although I believe royalties would still need to be paid to the author of the songs in that case. By the time the independent merchant has released its (potentially) flimsier, but probably cheaper, model Sony will have sold the required number of units to fulfill its profit requirement for the particular product.


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PostPosted: Thu July 20th, 2017, 02:08 GMT 
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BenjaminH wrote:
bobfan wrote:
What I don''t understand is there's been stuff on other copyright releases that, as far as I'm aware, had never circulated either like Royal Festival Hall on the '64 release.


Sony needs to release the recordings now in some form if they intend to make money on them at some point in the future. So if indeed they have alternate takes or even outtakes interesting enough to release later on, they need to have them "re-copyrighted" now, before the 50 years limit, otherwise the recordings will be free to re-market/sell for anyone once they finally appear. So even if no collectors have a copy hidden somewhere, it makes sense to do another copyright extension set simply to secure potential commercial use in the future.



Not necessarily. It is true that if Sony releases the JWH outtakes this year, in any form and in any quantity, then the copyright is protected for a potential mainstream release at some point in the future. But if Dylan Inc. doesn't release the outtakes this year (and they are confident that no one has copies of the tapes) they still have the option of releasing them in desirable packaging at a moment of their choosing. I would posit that Sony will still sell boatloads of the official package.

pol2jem wrote:
Once, or if, the Sony package is released (bear in mind that "a source close to Bob Dylan" has said that the JWH outtakes will not be released in any form), an independent merchant would have an opportunity to copy and re-market the outtakes if they are not copyright protected, although I believe royalties would still need to be paid to the author of the songs in that case. By the time the independent merchant has released its (potentially) flimsier, but probably cheaper, model Sony will have sold the required number of units to fulfill its profit requirement for the particular product.


Are they willing to risk it all? Or is their hope in vain?


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PostPosted: Thu July 20th, 2017, 06:12 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:

Not necessarily. It is true that if Sony releases the JWH outtakes this year, in any form and in any quantity, then the copyright is protected for a potential mainstream release at some point in the future. But if Dylan Inc. doesn't release the outtakes this year (and they are confident that no one has copies of the tapes) they still have the option of releasing them in desirable packaging at a moment of their choosing. I would posit that Sony will still sell boatloads of the official package.




That's the thing I would like to doubt: will the demand for any Dylan product (JWH or whatever else) in the future be higher or at least as high as it is now? If they want to release this stuff, why not release it now? Who is going to buy this releases in ten or twenty years? I think it's a question of demographics. Judging by the audiences I see at his shows, I would guess that most Dylan fans are at least over forty or over fifty. I'm almost fifty myself. I don't want to sound morbid now, but how many of these fans will still buy Dylan products in 10,15 or 20 years? And how many younger people will be interested in those JWH outtakes, if they are releasedd in , say, 2030?

Of course Sony cannot release everything that would interest us in one short period. But to hold back a release in the hope to make a bigger profit at some point in the future doesn't make much sense to me.


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PostPosted: Thu July 20th, 2017, 10:05 GMT 
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WrittenInMySoul wrote:
pol2jem wrote:

Not necessarily. It is true that if Sony releases the JWH outtakes this year, in any form and in any quantity, then the copyright is protected for a potential mainstream release at some point in the future. But if Dylan Inc. doesn't release the outtakes this year (and they are confident that no one has copies of the tapes) they still have the option of releasing them in desirable packaging at a moment of their choosing. I would posit that Sony will still sell boatloads of the official package.




That's the thing I would like to doubt: will the demand for any Dylan product (JWH or whatever else) in the future be higher or at least as high as it is now? If they want to release this stuff, why not release it now? Who is going to buy this releases in ten or twenty years? I think it's a question of demographics. Judging by the audiences I see at his shows, I would guess that most Dylan fans are at least over forty or over fifty. I'm almost fifty myself. I don't want to sound morbid now, but how many of these fans will still buy Dylan products in 10,15 or 20 years? And how many younger people will be interested in those JWH outtakes, if they are releasedd in , say, 2030?

Of course Sony cannot release everything that would interest us in one short period. But to hold back a release in the hope to make a bigger profit at some point in the future doesn't make much sense to me.

Whoops. Just wanted to reflect the above quote as being Pol2Jem's & not mine...(my bad on quickly requoting)


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PostPosted: Thu July 20th, 2017, 13:47 GMT 

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pol2jem wrote:
Not necessarily. It is true that if Sony releases the JWH outtakes this year, in any form and in any quantity, then the copyright is protected for a potential mainstream release at some point in the future. But if Dylan Inc. doesn't release the outtakes this year (and they are confident that no one has copies of the tapes) they still have the option of releasing them in desirable packaging at a moment of their choosing. I would posit that Sony will still sell boatloads of the official package.

Once, or if, the Sony package is released (bear in mind that "a source close to Bob Dylan" has said that the JWH outtakes will not be released in any form), an independent merchant would have an opportunity to copy and re-market the outtakes if they are not copyright protected, although I believe royalties would still need to be paid to the author of the songs in that case. By the time the independent merchant has released its (potentially) flimsier, but probably cheaper, model Sony will have sold the required number of units to fulfill its profit requirement for the particular product.


Perhaps, and certainly true for physical releases, but nothing would prevent another "label" from imidately releasing an identical digital copy, at least on the European markets. iTunes is already overflowing with such unofficial, but legal versions of many, many albums from the mid 60s and earlier - mostly, but not always, with different artwork. And how many people would care to check if the version they buy/stream happens to be from Sony Music or from some obscure label.

Also, can Sony really be certain that nobody has a copy? Considering the volume of masters, and alternate and incomplete takes that have leaked from their vaults in the past, and people who one way or another may have obtained copies in later years, some could well have. There hasn't been much in the way of rumors of people hanging on to JWH-sessions material, but not everyone talks loudly about what they have. Just after the copyright expired on Johnny Cash's Hymns from the Heart sessions, a completely unknown master surfaced - one that wasn't even listed in the semi-official discographies, or known among collectors - along with numerous incomplete takes. Seemingly somebody had been sitting on that tape for years waiting to make a little money on it. I guess it's not likely that the same thing goes for the JHW stuff, but it would still be a gamble on the part of Sony.

Of course it's entirely up to Sony and Dylan what they want to release and when to do it, but if they intend to release whatever John Wesley Harding takes they have within the next 25 years, it seems reasonable from them make certain that they will own the copyright.


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PostPosted: Thu July 20th, 2017, 18:21 GMT 
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BenjaminH wrote:
pol2jem wrote:
Not necessarily. It is true that if Sony releases the JWH outtakes this year, in any form and in any quantity, then the copyright is protected for a potential mainstream release at some point in the future. But if Dylan Inc. doesn't release the outtakes this year (and they are confident that no one has copies of the tapes) they still have the option of releasing them in desirable packaging at a moment of their choosing. I would posit that Sony will still sell boatloads of the official package.

Once, or if, the Sony package is released (bear in mind that "a source close to Bob Dylan" has said that the JWH outtakes will not be released in any form), an independent merchant would have an opportunity to copy and re-market the outtakes if they are not copyright protected, although I believe royalties would still need to be paid to the author of the songs in that case. By the time the independent merchant has released its (potentially) flimsier, but probably cheaper, model Sony will have sold the required number of units to fulfill its profit requirement for the particular product.


Perhaps, and certainly true for physical releases, but nothing would prevent another "label" from imidately releasing an identical digital copy, at least on the European markets. iTunes is already overflowing with such unofficial, but legal versions of many, many albums from the mid 60s and earlier - mostly, but not always, with different artwork. And how many people would care to check if the version they buy/stream happens to be from Sony Music or from some obscure label.

Also, can Sony really be certain that nobody has a copy? Considering the volume of masters, and alternate and incomplete takes that have leaked from their vaults in the past, and people who one way or another may have obtained copies in later years, some could well have. There hasn't been much in the way of rumors of people hanging on to JWH-sessions material, but not everyone talks loudly about what they have. Just after the copyright expired on Johnny Cash's Hymns from the Heart sessions, a completely unknown master surfaced - one that wasn't even listed in the semi-official discographies, or known among collectors - along with numerous incomplete takes. Seemingly somebody had been sitting on that tape for years waiting to make a little money on it. I guess it's not likely that the same thing goes for the JHW stuff, but it would still be a gamble on the part of Sony.

Of course it's entirely up to Sony and Dylan what they want to release and when to do it, but if they intend to release whatever John Wesley Harding takes they have within the next 25 years, it seems reasonable from them make certain that they will own the copyright.


Good points, well made (And those above, too). There are certainly tapes existing that were not included in the other copyright sets, and which could appear any time soon, but on the JWH outtakes there seems to be a certainty about their stance.

I for one certainly hope that Bob Inc. carefully reconsider the options and release the JWH outtakes as a copyright protection set this year even if they elect to exclude any studio banter and suchlike. A limited release along the lines of the other copyright collections would be consistent with the approach taken thus far and would not interfere with the mainstream release(s) already planned for this year.

Tulsa is just too far away for me, and if they wait 25 years, inevitably I'll be dust....


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PostPosted: Thu July 20th, 2017, 19:13 GMT 
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It would be nice if Sony listened to the words...

"John Wesley Harding was a friend to the poor"

Tulsa is a bus ride too far for this penurious peasant.


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PostPosted: Thu July 20th, 2017, 21:21 GMT 

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I'd rather see a JWH Deluxe edition of stereo/mono and Alternate takes. Throw in some session photos and you have the best archive release of the year, another unbelievable holy grail available for purchase.

Free's up the need to claim another volume of Bootleg Series and Copyrights.

I hope for this identical treatment of Blood On The Tracks - Deluxe Edidition with all the sessions. No need to be a Bootleg Series.


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PostPosted: Fri July 21st, 2017, 06:02 GMT 
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asdf29 wrote:
I'd rather see a JWH Deluxe edition of stereo/mono and Alternate takes. Throw in some session photos and you have the best archive release of the year, another unbelievable holy grail available for purchase.

Free's up the need to claim another volume of Bootleg Series and Copyrights.

I hope for this identical treatment of Blood On The Tracks - Deluxe Edidition with all the sessions. No need to be a Bootleg Series.


I would be fine with this. A deluxe edition would probably be affordable too


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PostPosted: Fri July 21st, 2017, 06:53 GMT 
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I have just completed my 3D printed ear which will contain a micro piece capable of storing 10GB of data using a HD recording microphone.

Tulsa Archive here I come. I will be visiting as a Dylan Historian and will be using the information to publish my next Bob book.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


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PostPosted: Fri July 21st, 2017, 07:03 GMT 
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dylanswife wrote:
I have just completed my 3D printed ear which will contain a micro piece capable of storing 10GB of data using a HD recording microphone.

Tulsa Archive here I come. I will be visiting as a Dylan Historian and will be using the information to publish my next Bob book.

Genius!!!


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PostPosted: Fri July 21st, 2017, 10:00 GMT 
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dylanswife wrote:
I have just completed my 3D printed ear which will contain a micro piece capable of storing 10GB of data using a HD recording microphone.

Tulsa Archive here I come. I will be visiting as a Dylan Historian and will be using the information to publish my next Bob book.



A clever idea (eyed ear?) - but one technical question: is this designed to fit over your own existing ear, or will you have to slice that off and replace it with this wondrous device? Also, to record in stereo would it be better to do both ears, or will you have to adopt a sideways stance to the source of the sound to achieve a good left/right balance and maintain a stereo image? One solution to this would be to run a cable through your skull and place the microphone just under the skin on the tip of your nose - this would probably arouse less suspicion.

I hope to find your uploads soon, perhaps under a nom-de-guerre such as 'The Ear'.


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PostPosted: Fri July 21st, 2017, 10:14 GMT 
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There are two devices which sync using bluetooth. Audio will be stored in 3 different formats. Monophonic, stereophonic, and multichannel (surround sound).

Each ear piece has a 4K camera as well, providing 360 video when linked together with bluetooth.

It is designed as a slip, but can printed as an actual prosthetic in the event you went full-retard and sliced off your ear.

For what it's worth, David Blaine had a surgical procedure that provides him with a hollow scar hole through both ends of his arm. This allows him to do his needle through the arm trick. Going through the skull is entirely possible!


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PostPosted: Sat July 22nd, 2017, 15:16 GMT 

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ShotofMercy wrote:
Just a snippet from Rolling Stone about the new Tulsa archives:

"To guard against bootlegging, the archive will maintain the audio files on a secure, offline network accessible only by three computer terminals at the library. Employees are still in the process of transferring many of the audio files, though they do have John Wesley Harding outtakes that have never been heard by fans. A click on the first take of "As I Went Out One Morning" reveals a drastically slowed-down, dirge-like rendition of the song."

I'd love to hear that version, it must be very eerie. Also even if there's only a handful of outtakes, some of which can be accessed in the archives, I still hope they get released this year.

Is there any indication that the Tulsa archive also has the 1961 outtakes from Bob's self-titled debut?


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PostPosted: Sun July 23rd, 2017, 04:15 GMT 
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Hank wrote:
ShotofMercy wrote:
Just a snippet from Rolling Stone about the new Tulsa archives:

"To guard against bootlegging, the archive will maintain the audio files on a secure, offline network accessible only by three computer terminals at the library. Employees are still in the process of transferring many of the audio files, though they do have John Wesley Harding outtakes that have never been heard by fans. A click on the first take of "As I Went Out One Morning" reveals a drastically slowed-down, dirge-like rendition of the song."

I'd love to hear that version, it must be very eerie. Also even if there's only a handful of outtakes, some of which can be accessed in the archives, I still hope they get released this year.

Is there any indication that the Tulsa archive also has the 1961 outtakes from Bob's self-titled debut?


Have those not already been released? He Was A Friend Of Mine, Man On The Street and House Carpenter on BLS 1-3 and the Witmark Demos have been released. I guess there are alternate takes but still. Also Wikipedia has a track listing for the 2013 reissue (I have never heard of this) with a bunch of bonus tracks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan_(album)


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PostPosted: Sun July 23rd, 2017, 09:30 GMT 
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The "2013 reissue" is an unauthorized out-of-copyright (in Europe) release. There are several out-of-copyright versions of Dylan's first album in the EU.


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