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PostPosted: Tue December 15th, 2015, 17:04 GMT 
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h.egbert wrote:
You might be right, pointing this out.

Can we agree on this:

# 16-21 & 82-90
# 76-81 & 22-30

belong together?


I definitely agree that the tape sources change in the middle of these concerts, but I've spent a lot of time in the past trying to discern where these '65 songs fit. It might be a fool's errand. I will say that I think the split more probably occurs after Mr. Tambourine Man. This is when he took a break in the show (you can hear him say "I'll see you in 15 minutes" at the end of it in the Manchester audience tape), and I'd imagine when they'd change tapes. Probably why the next song Talking WWIII Blues is cut in the beginning for the Liverpool show. So I could see separate tapes getting mislabeled and mixed up.


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PostPosted: Tue December 15th, 2015, 22:57 GMT 

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H.egbert, lonelycrowd, anyone else:

Can we agree on this:

# 16-21 & 82-90
# 76-81 & 22-30

belong together?]


Yes, we are certainly in agreement on that. What you posted seemed to be contrary to that which gave me pause on posting the following thoughts. But with your clarification, here we go ...

I don’t believe we know yet what has happened or when (we may never know) – but it is fairly obvious that there is some sort of mix up between the Sheffield and Newcastle recordings as evidenced in the respective download file sets for 50thAC 1965. If it weren’t for the 6-song audience tape from Sheffield to use in comparison, it might’ve been more difficult to detect and know for sure. As I said, we don’t know everything but a few things seem to be coming into light.

At very least, the first six songs in the Newcastle download files (#76 – #81) are the performances from Sheffield. Those match the performances on the Sheffield audience tape. To my ears, the seventh Newcastle download file (#82 - Mr Tambourine Man) is also probably Sheffield since it seems to have the same general ‘sound’ characteristics (echoey line audio) as the preceding Sheffield performances. The remaining files in the Newcastle file set have a ‘sound’ characteristic which differs from the way the first seven files in that set sound.

I believe we also have at least two first half Newcastle songs to use in comparison. A complete Times Changin’ (DLB Outtakes) and a complete but mislabeled To Ramona (DVD bonus audio track). Both of those match the first two tracks (#16 and #17) in the Sheffield download files which indicates those two files are actually the Newcastle performances. The first seven Sheffield download files have a common ‘sound’ characteristic which differs from the way the remaining files in that group sound.

It seems likely that the first halves of these two concert recordings were switched and/or mislabeled. When, where and how that may have occurred is only conjecture. However, two of the DVD bonus audio tracks related to Sheffield and Newcastle also weren’t correctly identified and labeled in previous official releases.

As stated upthread: Sheffield and Newcastle are concerts where there were reports of microphone failures & possible mic change outs possibly occurring at the midway point or not long afterward. Some of the circulating video evidence from those two shows suggests as much. Likewise, there’s evidence of sound problems heard in these 50thAC 1965 files.

Until we know more, and there still are a few more things which could be checked and compared for further verification, one way to assemble a ‘corrected’ concert sequence might be to intermix files from the two file groups:

*Real Sheffield* = first seven Newcastle download files (#76 - #82) + final eight files in the Sheffield file set (#23 - #30]

Note: (#23 – Talkin’ WW III Blues) is apparently an audience recording, indicating that a suitable line recording of that song wasn’t available possibly due to temporary sound problems during the concert.

*Real Newcastle* = first seven Sheffield download files (#16 - # 22) + final eight files in the Newcastle file set (#82 - #90)

Note: During (#84 – Don’t Think Twice) there may have been a line dropout or mic failure. Dylan interrupts to ask, “Is the microphone off?” before continuing. The Newcastle performance of Don't Think Twice was filmed by Pennebaker, but in the DLB film, the Manchester audio has apparently been synced to a brief Newcastle clip from that video. Manchester is the far superior performance of that song. Manchester is also the apparent source of the Don't Think Twice version heard on the Retro Rock Radio Show discs (thanks to h.egbert for listening closely and bringing this to our attention).


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PostPosted: Wed December 16th, 2015, 04:46 GMT 
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bstacy wrote:
H.egbert, lonelycrowd, anyone else:

Can we agree on this...



Hello bstacy, H.egbert, lonelycrowd & others:

Thank you for bring so diligent & relentless at sorting this out!
It needs to be memorialized somewhere.

Great detective work to all involved!


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PostPosted: Wed December 16th, 2015, 05:57 GMT 

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Can only agree.

Thanks to egbert, lonelycrowd and brian for all your work sorting this out for us.


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PostPosted: Thu December 17th, 2015, 22:24 GMT 
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bstacy wrote:
The Newcastle performance of Don't Think Twice was filmed by Pennebaker, but in the DLB film, the Manchester audio has apparently been synced to a brief Newcastle clip from that video

Excellent! That cough was confusing the hell out of me.


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 01:32 GMT 
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bstacy wrote:
*Real Sheffield* = first seven Newcastle download files (#76 - #82) + final eight files in the Sheffield file set (#23 - #30]

Note: (#23 – Talkin’ WW III Blues) is apparently an audience recording, indicating that a suitable line recording of that song wasn’t available possibly due to temporary sound problems during the concert.

*Real Newcastle* = first seven Sheffield download files (#16 - # 22) + final eight files in the Newcastle file set (#82 - #90)


Many thanks to you and the others who helped figure this out. It is greatly appreciated!


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 01:55 GMT 

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Here's a corrected Newcastle file list (slightly mis-numbered in my previous post). Also revised the note with it.

*Real Newcastle* = first seven Sheffield download files (#16 - #22) + final eight files in the Newcastle file set (#83 - #90)
Note: During (#84 – Don’t Think Twice) there may have been a line dropout or mic failure. Dylan interrupts to ask, “Is the microphone off?” before continuing. A performance of Don't Think Twice was filmed by Pennebaker (was it Dylan at Newcastle or another concert?) and included as a partial clip in the DLB film. The Newcastle performance (#84) is not the audio for that clip. As it turns out, the Manchester audio was apparently synced to that brief video of Don’t Think Twice in the film. Manchester is the far superior performance of that song. Manchester is also the apparent source of the Don't Think Twice version heard on the Retro Rock Radio Show discs.

Added some items given further clarification by the 50thAC 1965 download material.

Retro Rock Radio Show "D. A. Pennebaker, Rock's Cinematographer" - Clayton Webster Corporation radio station discs, Retro Rock Shows RR-81-4 & RR-81-5 (USA), broadcast 14 & 21 Sep 1981:
Searching For A Gem - R-0402-2 - Don't Think Twice, It's All Right – This is not Newcastle but rather Manchester England, 7 May 1965. Because of its placement within the Dont Look Back film and its identification as Newcastle in the Dont Look Back Ballantine paperback book, it has long been assumed that this performance was from Newcastle. Actually, there are visual clues (Dylan’s shirt, the microphones and mic cords) indicating that the video of the song is not from Newcastle but is actually from Manchester. With the release of 50thAC 1965, it is now clear that the Newcastle Don’t Think Twice is quite a bit different from what is heard in the Dont Look Back film soundtrack and is also different from the near-complete version available as the Retro Rock Radio Show track. The audio is the performance from Manchester with only slight edits made at the very beginning to not include the opening applause when Dylan starts singing his first line and also to remove a barely audible cough or clearing of the throat he makes before singing "If'n you don't know by now". The corresponding section of the “real” Newcastle recording, following the partial false start, seems the most likely source for those edits.

50thAC 1965 file set for London Royal Albert Hall – 9 May 1965
The first half of this concert, files #107 – #113, is the same performance (same recording source?) as the circulating Royal Albert Hall audience tape. The second half, files #114 – #121, are from a line recording.

Dont Look Back DVD Bonus Audio Tracks
Love Minus Zero/No Limit – (as verified previously) is Sheffield – 30 April 1965.
It is the same performance as the correct Sheffield file (#81) in the 50thAC 1965 download set.

To Ramona – (as suspected previously) is Newcastle – 6 May 1965.
It is the same performance as the correct Newcastle file (#17) in the 50thAC 1965 download set.

The Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carroll / It's All Over Now, Baby Blue / It Ain't Me, Babe
These bonus audio performances are all the same as those in the 50thAC 1965 file set for 10 May 1965.
They are different from the respective performances in the 50thAC 1965 file set for 9 May 1965.
The versions in the 9 May files are the same performances as those on the circulating Royal Albert Hall audience tape.

Note: The RAH audience tape has historically been dated as 9 May. At one time or other, there were reports and discussions that it might have been misdated and was actually from 10 May. I don’t recall specific evidence as to why the 10 May date should be the more correct date. As far as I know, most discographers still go with a 9 May date for that tape and likewise accept a 10 May attribution for the RAH bonus tracks. The versions in the 50thAC 1965 download support the attributions provided for the RAH bonus tracks in the DVD releases (2000 and 2007). Conventional wisdom follows that the original audience taper would’ve known which concert was being taped. It is possible that somewhere along the line, dubs from that tape might’ve been mislabeled or left unidentified by others. It seems a stretch that the Nagra line recordings for both of these concerts would have also been switched or mislabeled. Dylan’s remark at the end of the Baby Blue bonus track, “I’ll see you next time,” seems more of a farewell until his next visit to England than a goodbye until the next evening’s concert.


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 10:32 GMT 
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Thanks to BStacy and h.egbert and LonelyCrowd for your contributions.

It's taken a lot of time and tediousness to get this far and yet this should absolutely not be taken as a "final word".

In particular, I'm told by JF that he will be working on this during his vacation next week and I look forward to his results, which will I expect will include all the music found in DLB and the bootlegged "DLB Outtakes" as well as the other scraps. I personally prefer his more 'conservative' style with fewer assumptions, which results in more accuracy at the cost of being less declarative.


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 10:45 GMT 

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So where do Tracks 76-82 belong? Sheffield?


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 10:55 GMT 
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voles wrote:
So where do Tracks 76-82 belong? Sheffield?



Yes, I think this the current stage of research (thanks to all involved to come so far!).


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 11:33 GMT 

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h.egbert wrote:
voles wrote:
So where do Tracks 76-82 belong? Sheffield?



Yes, I think this the current stage of research (thanks to all involved to come so far!).


Thanks for that - and the 4 'Boston' tracks (181-4) were actually recorded at Arie Crown Theatre, McCormick Place, Chicago, Illinois on 26th November 1965?

So was there a concert at the 'Back Bay Theatre' or not? It's not mentioned at http://www.bjorner.com/DSN00785%20(65).htm...


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 12:39 GMT 
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voles wrote:
Thanks for that - and the 4 'Boston' tracks (181-4) were actually recorded at Arie Crown Theatre, McCormick Place, Chicago, Illinois on 26th November 1965?


At least that's mutual understanding, for obviously there's a circulating tape of those tracks that is attributed to Chicago, but I haven't heard it.

voles wrote:
So was there a concert at the 'Back Bay Theatre' or not? It's not mentioned at http://www.bjorner.com/DSN00785%20(65).htm...


Those were the times when nothing was that well documented as it is today. Who would have known that 50 years later there are people like us who are interested in such things down to the smallest detail?

But, well, I think if people like Olof and all the others, who did research on this don't mention such an concert, there is no evidence of it found yet.
On the other hand, who will rule out that somewhere deep in vaults of whatever archive of involved parties some note says, yes it was? There should be some kind of a record for Sony to place the 4 tracks to a Boston, shouldn't it?


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 14:37 GMT 

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h.egbert wrote:
voles wrote:
Thanks for that - and the 4 'Boston' tracks (181-4) were actually recorded at Arie Crown Theatre, McCormick Place, Chicago, Illinois on 26th November 1965?

h.egbert wrote:
On the other hand, who will rule out that somewhere deep in vaults of whatever archive of involved parties some note says, yes it was? There should be some kind of a record for Sony to place the 4 tracks to a Boston, shouldn't it?


That's my thinking. Not having the 'Chicago' tape myself I think I had better reserve judgement.

btw... to my ears 'To Ramona' - the bonus track from 'Don't Look Back', definitely matches up with Track 77, To Ramona (Live at The Oval, City Hall, Sheffield, England - April 30, 1965). The harmonica at the end nails it for me.

Just to make sure I checked them in Audacity as well. An even better place to see the similarity is in the harmonica break just before the 3 minute mark.


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 15:16 GMT 
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voles wrote:
So was there a concert at the 'Back Bay Theatre' or not? It's not mentioned at http://www.bjorner.com/DSN00785%20(65).htm...


There were two, one on 29th. October & one on the 31st. October. There are press ads. for both concerts.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=82929


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 15:21 GMT 

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lowgen says >this should absolutely not be taken as a "final word".

And how! You can say that again. No one's word on the topics of Dylan history and recordings, particularly within a discussion group, should ever be considered as "final word".

More information, better information, particularly information that's more precise and correctly detailed should always be welcomed and evaluated upon its merits. Not likely, it will be the "final word" either.

This is a great topic (glad it was started) .... but I'm sure glad I didn't allow the first posting's conservative (some might say cryptic) style of presentation influence what I thought about its accuracy or the need for myself and others to look into these recordings more closely ourselves. Its also a good thing none of us here accepted it as the "final word", either.


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 19:02 GMT 
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The "OP" - the first posting - was mine and was made a day or two after the release. I regret not explicitly calling it a "first draft quickie" based on minimum listening while I looked mainly for new material. That post was unfortunately reposted on the SH forum, without these valuable follow-ups.

Re the Chicago tape:
I got an early copy of this back when PL was berating the taper on the RMD forum for not circulating the rest of it and I have no doubt that it is indeed Chicago. I have no idea why that one bootleg called it "Boston" and no idea why Sony used that false ID despite the fact that Dylan's office already had a copy as "Chicago".

>>Those were the times when nothing was that well documented as it is today. Who would have known that 50 years later there are people like us who are interested in such things down to the smallest detail?

Well, actually there were people who documented carefully from the late 60s on, indeed believing it would be important in the future. Things went astray when people who couldn't accept a recording with an unknown or uncertain venue or date began filling in the blanks with their best guesses. These guesses were sometimes completely illogical and sometimes they changed known facts to fit their theories. Heylin, most notably, caused a lot of damage in this regard by filling in every blank he could. His dating of the undated Witmark demos, for example, is a total fabrication though it's repeated in Bjorner. That's just one example.

Bjorner came along at a later date, with the human propensity to have more faith in a published fact and more faith in a recent word from a recognizable name. He totally believed and reprinted Heylin's crap, although he may have since cleaned out some of it. Still, I'm grateful for his money-losing web site. It is the most comprehensive public discography available. Note that Bjorner has reprinted in-studio facts as coming from Heylin although they originally come from Krogsgaard's excellent work at Sony's offices which is unfortunately less "public".

Re comparisons:
I have multiple sound channels in my computer and always make comparisons by playing each version into one headphone side or the other. To make a quality comparison, I reconfigure to toggle from one version to another with an instantaneous switch, and adjust for equality of volume and speed and sometimes EQ too.


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PostPosted: Fri December 18th, 2015, 19:56 GMT 
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lowgen wrote:
That post was unfortunately reposted on the SH forum, without these valuable follow-ups.


:oops: It's OK, I fixed it. :D


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PostPosted: Sat December 19th, 2015, 08:09 GMT 

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Thanks for all the sterling work on this! I believe this all demonstrates that as many Dylan aficionados should hear this material as possible.


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PostPosted: Sat December 19th, 2015, 08:29 GMT 
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I agree. Sony should sell as many copies as possible.


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PostPosted: Sat December 19th, 2015, 16:11 GMT 

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Really looking forward to more updates on this - have been following it with interest, thanks everyone!


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PostPosted: Sun December 20th, 2015, 01:02 GMT 
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Re the Chicago / Boston mixup:

The ID of Chicago was just further confirmed by the collector who got it from the taper.
The taper lived outside of Chicago and knew the date even though there were 2 shows.

It's just another stupid bootlegger's mistake, quite possibly intentional.


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PostPosted: Sun December 20th, 2015, 02:44 GMT 
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lowgen wrote:

It's just another stupid bootlegger's mistake, quite possibly intentional.


Hey, Bootleggers are human too.


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PostPosted: Mon December 21st, 2015, 19:03 GMT 
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bstacy wrote:
H.egbert, lonelycrowd, anyone else:


*Real Sheffield* = first seven Newcastle download files (#76 - #82) + final eight files in the Sheffield file set (#23 - #30]

Note: (#23 – Talkin’ WW III Blues) is apparently an audience recording, indicating that a suitable line recording of that song wasn’t available possibly due to temporary sound problems during the concert.

*Real Newcastle* = first seven Sheffield download files (#16 - # 22) + final eight files in the Newcastle file set (#82 - #90)


GREAT info. Thanks so much. I assume anyone burning these live 65' shows to discs would want to arrange the tracks properly for the burning process and have the correct songs going with what show they were played at! Extremely helpful stuff.


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PostPosted: Mon December 21st, 2015, 20:19 GMT 

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I've heard there's no known recording of Dylan's Nov. 6, 1965 show in Ithaca, NY (Cornell University). More than one Dylan reference book lists this date at another venue. It was definitely Ithaca. (I read somewhere online of its existence--and proof thereof.) Also, discovered, believe it or not, that Dylan played Cornell another time in 1965, in March or April, if memory serves. Anybody know anything about either of these '65 shows?


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PostPosted: Mon December 21st, 2015, 20:44 GMT 
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cloudofwit wrote:
I've heard there's no known recording of Dylan's Nov. 6, 1965 show in Ithaca, NY (Cornell University). More than one Dylan reference book lists this date at another venue. It was definitely Ithaca. (I read somewhere online of its existence--and proof thereof.) Also, discovered, believe it or not, that Dylan played Cornell another time in 1965, in March or April, if memory serves. Anybody know anything about either of these '65 shows?


15. Bailey Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York. (20th. March)
Press Preview. Cornell Daily Sun. 8th. March.
Press Preview. Cornell Daily Sun. 17th. March.
Concert Review. Cornell Daily Sun. 22nd. March.

56. Barton Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York. (6th. November)
Set Included;
Desolation Row
Ballad of A Thin Man
Press Ad.
Concert Ticket.
Concert Ticket.
Concert Review. The Cornell Daily Sun. 8th. November.

http://uncirculatingdylan.blogspot.no/


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