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Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences
http://www.expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82211
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Author:  raindogbuddy [ Thu December 18th, 2014, 18:56 GMT ]
Post subject:  Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

We know about Bob's love of "Bound for Glory," Rimbaud, the Threepenny Opera and the Beat Poets during his early years and the influence it had on his work, but what about his later (especially more recent) material? Has Bob indicated in any interviews what works have especially moved him as of late (outside that one movie starring Gregory Peck :P )???

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Thu December 18th, 2014, 20:36 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

Timrod and Henry Rollins, among others.

Author:  oldfan [ Fri December 19th, 2014, 01:00 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

Johanna Parker wrote:
Timrod and Henry Rollins, among others.


eric lott ("Love & Theft")/ hemingway/Poe/Nabokov….

those i take from reading Warmuth….and you can find a lot more of the sources that he found at (warmuth's) goon talk website….more than fascinating

Author:  storiesinthepress [ Fri December 19th, 2014, 07:48 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

Both modern and ancient. Jack London and Homer are all over Tempest and Modern Times. Much Ovid in Modern Times too. New Workingman's lyrics have Homer in them. I think there's a recent thread on that one that might be worth checking out. He changes the lyrics to it quite often. Sometimes other peoples lyrics. John Whittier and Omar Khayyám are present on Tempest as well. Here's a nice source blog for you.

https://www.pinterest.com/scottwarmuth/ ... rd_created

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Fri December 19th, 2014, 09:42 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

Just google randon phrasese from his albums since '97....

Author:  charlesdarwin [ Fri December 19th, 2014, 10:06 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

Perhaps we need to distinguish between the sources of Dylan's reused material (where he's got the stuff) and his influences (what precedents he is following, who he wants to sound like, who he's anxious not to sound like, how and why he uses the stuff he's found etc.) - I know, it's so much easier just to google search Dylan's output, find some quotations then indulge in windy speculation about puzzles or "codes", or check the Wikipedia entry of the writer Dylan has used and pretend some familiarity with their biography or work in a wider context - but that tells us nothing. And this confusion of sources with influences shows how far we've still got to go before we get anywhere that bears the even vaguest resemblance to serious engagement and criticism.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 11:38 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

A voice of reason, as always. I wish there was some cooperative effort to systematically assemble these 'reused materials'. Speculation about codes and the like holds no interest for me, I'm merely interested in 'what there is'. As Dylan himself and others who worked with him have said, "The box wrote it" - the box being a collection of lines and phrases jotted down and kept for potential use. It's not rocket science and doesn't require any code breakers.

Author:  smoke [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 12:17 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

I think it's natural to want to find a pattern, a meaning in all the quotations, but that doesn't mean one is there in the macro sense. On a smaller scale things like using "the con man's bible" to describe his guitar technique are quite clever, but on a larger scale I've never seen a persuasive argument for a meaning beyond Dylan's need/desire to create new songs to perform. If people have ideas about this, though, I'd love to hear them. It could be a fascinating topic.

Author:  Mickvet [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 13:34 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

The principle literary source (and influence, I would assert) continues to be the (probably King James version of) the Bible.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 13:48 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

Mickvet wrote:
The principle literary source (and influence, I would assert) continues to be the (probably King James version of) the Bible.


Influence, yes. Literary source, not so much, given that the majority of lines and phrases in Dylan's albums since 1997 can be traced back directly, and often word for word, to many different texts. Of course, this doesn't exclude a Judeo-Christian theme running through his work. In my impression, many of his quotes from non-religious sources come together in a way that supports the theme.

Author:  Mickvet [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 16:13 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

^

I just rather randomly looked up a song-I searched here for Modern Times lyrics and just looked at the first four verses of Thunder On The Mountain:

"Thunder on the mountain, and there's fires on the moon
A ruckus in the alley and the sun will be here soon
Today's the day, gonna grab my trombone and blow
Well, there's hot stuff here and it's everywhere I go

I was thinkin' 'bout Alicia Keys, couldn't keep from crying
When she was born in Hell's Kitchen, I was living down the line
I'm wondering where in the world Alicia Keys could be
I been looking for her even clear through Tennessee

Feel like my soul is beginning to expand
Look into my heart and you will sort of understand
You brought me here, now you're trying to run me away
The writing on the wall, come read it, come see what it say

Thunder on the mountain, rollin' like a drum
Gonna sleep over there, that's where the music coming from
I don't need any guide, I already know the way
Remember this, I'm your servant both night and day..."

I still find evidence of several biblical lines even in this short example. But they are so skilfully woven into the narrative and frequently adapted to a more modern idiom that they can be hard to recognise. Personally I find it easier to hear them, rather than see them in the text.

Some that I see are: "the Sun/Son blowing (that) trombone", "The writing on the wall", and "I'm your servant both night and day" could be sourced in Nehemiah 1:4-11 NKJ.

Certainly the sources are less obvious than the albums of the Gospel period but I think there are plenty of nuanced ones.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 16:27 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

I was thinking about Ma Rainey, wonder where could Ma Rainey be
I was thinking about Ma Rainey, wonder where could Ma Rainey be
I been looking for her, even been 'n old Tennessee

Ma Rainey [song], Memphis Minnie

Thought of my mama in Avalon, couldn't hardly keep from crying
Avalon Blues [song], Mississippi John Hurt, 1928

I got womens in Vicksburg, clean on into Tennessee,
I got womens in Vicksburg, clean on into Tennessee
Traveling Riverside Blues [song], Robert Johnson, 1937

Upon thy verge it is
That Juan's chariot, rolling like a drum
In thunder
, holds the way it can't well miss
Don Juan X [poem], Lord Byron, 1819-1824

I'm going to sleep... Over there, that's where the music is coming from
Death On The Installment Plan [novel], Louis-Ferdinand Céline, 1936 (trans. Ralph Manheim, 1966)

Remember, I'm your servant night and day
The Sergeant-At-Law's Tale, in: The Canterbury Tales, Geoffrey Caucer, late 14th century (trans. David Wright, 1964)

This big city's all right but I'm so far from town
A shack catches fire, you know it's got to burn down
Call The Fire Wagon [song], Memphis Minnie

etc etc

Author:  hanns [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 17:18 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

It' s plain silly to look for sources for everyday phrases like "I couldn't keep from crying'". But then again, everything worth doing is worth overdoing, right?

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 17:21 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

The context seemed interesting here. Otherwise, of course it's a stock phrase appearing in many songs. That's beside the point though.

Author:  hanns [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 18:19 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

Well, I don't know Aavoln Blues and the context you may refere to, but I'm positive that the ideas expressed in Celine's novel have nothing to do whatsoever with the ideas revealed in TOTM. So why try to pin down another household phrase like "That's where the music's comin from" to a notorious writer? Seems like useles trainspotting to me. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind this stuff when something worthwhile is revealed but it would be nice if people would be a bit more considerate.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat December 20th, 2014, 18:56 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Bob's Later Literary/Theater Influences

Of course not. Nobody said that transferring a number of lines and phrases from an existing work to a new one necessarily also transferred the underlying ideas or messeges from the old work to the new. I read a number of books by Henry Rollins from which Bob quotes on TOOM and elsewhere, and couldn't find much that the two would have in common other than quite a large number of lines. It may all come down to, "This sounds interesting, let's use it."

hanns wrote:
So why try to pin down another household phrase like "That's where the music's comin from" to a notorious writer?


That phrase is common of course, but how common is "I'm going to sleep over there, that's where the music's coming from"? If this shows up in many other works, I'd be interested in seeing them.

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