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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 16:43 GMT 

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phrases/praises.
what the!?


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 16:49 GMT 
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The Killer Snark wrote:
I actually agree with that, mostly. Sometimes, however, something just clangs. The reason the following assontal rhyme stands out as so clumsy is because both lines are so contrived:

King Kong, little elves, on my rooftops they dance,
Playing Valentino type tangos with the makeup man's hands.

And then there is the following, from a song I love. The forced rhyme seems more forced because of the weird enjambment that takes place, right at a stanza's end. The pause jars as it's being sung:

I waited in the hallway, she went to get it,
And I tried to make sense
Out of that picture of you in your wheelchair
That leaned up against . . .


"Valentino type tangos, while the hero's clean hands" *


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 17:16 GMT 
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That big fat moon
Is gonna shine like a spoon
We're gonna let it
You won't regret it
Kick your shoes off...


All rhymes are beautiful in their time, and few time them better than Bob Dylan. I rather like some of the rhymes listed here, like winterlude/dude or "Lenny Bruce was bad, he was the brother that you never had". Context is everything.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 17:46 GMT 

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Jal015...Yeah, you're right there. I used the wrong source to copy from, my bad.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 18:09 GMT 
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As Smoke said, context is everything, because any rhyme can be bad or good, really. There are a few that I can't think of right off the top of my head, that don't fit well in the meter of the music. And I'm not talking about ones like I had ’em once though, I suppose, to go along With all the ring-dancin’ Christmas carols on all of the Christmas eves. All of those syllables are crammed but still are well timed. If I think of an example, I'll post it, but usually it's when a word has to be unnaturally stretched out in order to make it work with the rhythm of the song. Other than that, I don't have an issue with one being simple or obvious. Some of those are very lovely, succinct, and just what is needed. If it doesn't fit within the established meter, it feels forced and therefore doesn't work for me, that's about it.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 19:46 GMT 
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wait, wait wait ... There's bad rhymes???


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 21:12 GMT 
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The Killer Snark wrote:
Jal015...Yeah, you're right there. I used the wrong source to copy from, my bad.


Yeah I really hate when that happens. I did that earlier with Ballad In Plain D. Songmeanings.com said, "I gagged twice, doubled, tears blinding my sight", when it's "I gagged in contradiction, tears blinding my sight".


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 21:51 GMT 

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It's not just that, but alternate lyrics have went about re: Farewell Angelina for years - "Fiends nail time bands to the hands of the clocks" - so it wasn't until I heard the song for the first time I realised how misquoted it is, or were these actual alternative lines?


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 22:00 GMT 
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The Killer Snark wrote:
It's not just that, but alternate lyrics have went about re: Farewell Angelina for years - "Fiends nail time bands to the hands of the clocks" - so it wasn't until I heard the song for the first time I realised how misquoted it is, or were these actual alternative lines?


I mean maybe he wrote it like that, and then change the words when he went to record it, but I'm not sure.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 22:10 GMT 
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imho 'no time to think' has some funny lyrics.

'China doll, alcohol, duality, mortality
Mercury rules you & destiny fools you
Like the plague with a dangerous wink'


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 22:49 GMT 

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jcastro wrote:
wait, wait wait ... There's bad rhymes???


yeah, I don't get it either.


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 22:55 GMT 
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Voice With Restraint wrote:
Trev wrote:
The rhyme is brilliant, I think, and is principally with January -
What can I say about Claudette? Ain't seen her since January
She could be respectably married or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires

In an earlier version the line goes Don't know what I say about Claudette, she could be in the mountains or the prairies/She could be respectably married, or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires but whilst that's a nice rhyme, it may not have been outrageous enough. One of the reasons why January/Buenos Aires works is because it's the topper, right at the end of a catalogue of extravagant rhyming :
cement/innocent
nauseated/deteriorated
sent to me/meant to be
humiliated/obligated
temperature/furniture


Spot on!


Absolutely!


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PostPosted: Sun October 27th, 2013, 23:10 GMT 
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Foggy wrote:
jcastro wrote:
wait, wait wait ... There's bad rhymes???


yeah, I don't get it either.


There are silly rhymes, but I don't think he's written bad ones. Yes, I even include his rhymes in wiggle wiggle. actually like that song :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon October 28th, 2013, 15:17 GMT 
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jeffr92 wrote:
A lot of cringe-worthy rhymes in the 80s and early 90s. An obvious answer, but I'll nominate all of this:

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a gypsy queen
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle all dressed in green
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle ’til the moon is blue
Wiggle ’til the moon sees you

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle in your boots and shoes
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, you got nothing to lose
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a swarm of bees
Wiggle on your hands and knees

Wiggle to the front, wiggle to the rear
Wiggle ’til you wiggle right out of here
Wiggle ’til it opens, wiggle ’til it shuts
Wiggle ’til it bites, wiggle ’til it cuts

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle—you can raise the dead

Wiggle ’til you’re high, wiggle ’til you’re higher
Wiggle ’til you vomit fire
Wiggle ’til it whispers, wiggle ’til it hums
Wiggle ’til it answers, wiggle ’til it comes

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like satin and silk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a pail of milk
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, rattle and shake
Wiggle like a big fat snake


You can't pick out stuff like this because it's not like he was striving for genius here.


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PostPosted: Mon October 28th, 2013, 18:28 GMT 

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There's a few egregious ones in Gates of Eden. In fact, though I like the song, the whole lyric is pretentious and rambling, but what sticks most is how he throws meaningless lines in in order to shoehorn in rhymes:

The savage soldiers sticks his head in sand
And then complains
Unto the shoeless hunter who's gone deaf
But still remains

and

The motorcycle black madonna
Two-wheeled gypsy queen
And her silver-studded phantom cause
The gray flannel dwarf to scream

There's one worse I've found, but I think it might be a misprint. I have no faults with the song in musical terms, but...well, the evidence remains.


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PostPosted: Mon October 28th, 2013, 18:46 GMT 
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panther wrote:
I've always been undecided if

She could be respectably married
or running a whorehouse in Buenos Aires


is his best rhyme, or his worst. Can go either way!
I think Buenos Aires was meant to rhyme with the previous line's 'Janu-arie' - will have to check how it scans


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PostPosted: Mon October 28th, 2013, 19:05 GMT 
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The Killer Snark wrote:
what sticks most is how he throws meaningless lines in in order to shoehorn in rhymes:

The savage soldiers sticks his head in sand
And then complains
Unto the shoeless hunter who's gone deaf
But still remains

and

The motorcycle black madonna
Two-wheeled gypsy queen
And her silver-studded phantom cause
The gray flannel dwarf to scream
Yeah, it's pretty obvious and not something Ginsberg would've let slide. Dylan did benefit from the advice he did get from him - Ginsberg changed 'you better not chew gum' to 'you better chew gum'

The Killer Snark wrote:
There's one worse I've found, but I think it might be a misprint. I have no faults with the song in musical terms, but...well, the evidence remains.
We'll be the judge of that, Sir - lay it on us.


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PostPosted: Mon October 28th, 2013, 19:47 GMT 
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Foggy wrote:
jcastro wrote:
wait, wait wait ... There's bad rhymes???


yeah, I don't get it either.

what you don't get? the bad rhymes or my post??. :lol: :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon October 28th, 2013, 20:11 GMT 
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In Hurricane, which he wrote in a hurry, the line:

We want to put his ass in stir
We want to pin this triple mur-der on him

always seemed a tad forced to me. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue October 29th, 2013, 10:47 GMT 

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Gates of Eden contains possibly the most hopeless rhyme (and maybe the worst line) in any Dylan song; in fact, I'd thought I must be mistaken that this was indeed the line:

The lamppost stands with folded arms
Its iron claws attached
To curbs 'neath holes where babies wail
Though it shadows metal badge

This one is a bit more natural, but isn't a good deal better:

At dawn my lover comes to me
And tells me of her dreams
With no attempts to shovel the glimpse
Into the ditch of what each one means

And this is from God Gave Names To All The Animals, which by the way I think is the weakest song on Slow Train Coming. I know it's meant to be a children's song, but still:

He saw an animal that liked to growl
Big furry paws and he liked to howl
Great big furry back and furry hair
"Ah, think I'll call it a bear".


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PostPosted: Thu October 31st, 2013, 05:53 GMT 
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Foggy wrote:
wait, wait wait ... There's bad rhymes???

jcastro wrote:
yeah, I don't get it either.

For sure as someone said a bad rhyme is a forced-sounding one. You can tell it's forced if you can guess which word came first and which was the one that had to be shoe-horned in to fit.
Beyond that, a sublime rhyme has some sort of connective thread in terms of meaning of the words/phrases involved.


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PostPosted: Thu October 31st, 2013, 08:02 GMT 
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Rhyming 'freight train' with 'fate' was pretty dodgy.


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PostPosted: Thu October 31st, 2013, 08:18 GMT 

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AndoDoug wrote:
Foggy wrote:
wait, wait wait ... There's bad rhymes???

jcastro wrote:
yeah, I don't get it either.

For sure as someone said a bad rhyme is a forced-sounding one. You can tell it's forced if you can guess which word came first and which was the one that had to be shoe-horned in to fit.
Beyond that, a sublime rhyme has some sort of connective thread in terms of meaning of the words/phrases involved.


Still makes no sense to me. What you guys think as "forced" (judging by the content of this thread) I see as original/clever/interesting.

I find this whole thread really odd--but horses for courses, I guess.


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PostPosted: Thu October 31st, 2013, 08:48 GMT 

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Brian Hamilton-Smith wrote:
Rhyming 'freight train' with 'fate' was pretty dodgy.


In honour of Steve Irwin, he could amend it to

She felt the heat of the night
Hit her like a skate
Swimming round like a simple twist of fate


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PostPosted: Thu October 31st, 2013, 09:35 GMT 
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or, in honour of Stephen Oxford...

He felt the heat of the night
Hit him like a Celebrity Bake-
Off, Moving like a simple piece of cake


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