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PostPosted: Mon November 25th, 2013, 18:55 GMT 

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A plodding, egregious blemish on an otherwise splendid album, its principal merit being its place in the sequence: as the final number, it's painlessly skipped. Now I'll concede that the nautical and outlaw themes are strong; Bob being Bob, he could not but come up with some powerful raw materials. But the song passes beyond redemption with its laughably ham-fisted Beatles lyric and song-title quotations and - above all - by the utterly inexcusable analogy it tries to draw between pop stardom and slavery. One would expect Dylan to know better. Regrettable that "Lenny Bruce" has now been surpassed as the definitive instance of a mawkishly gruesome "tribute" in Bob's canon.


Seriously? You don't think Bob Dylan would be well aware of how "laughably ham-fisted" these lyrics are? Neither this song nor Lenny Bruce are "tribute" songs. They're folk songs. Like "Old John Henry." They're not paying tribute to a historical person, they're not about any specific "analogy," they're using a character or person that people are familiar with as a memorable backdrop to communicate universal truths about human nature, life, character, God, etc.

Dylan is inviting his listener to look deeper, calling him/her to open their eyes and discover for themselves the same truth that he sees incarnated within the stories of these people and in that to understand a little more that which is common to every human being, that which connects every human story.

Dylan DOES know better than to write a trite, kitschy, tribute song, but he does it anyway precisely because he expects that those who really WANT to understand will begin peeling back the layers while those who just want to be critics will feel justified in writing it off.

If you're really interested in understanding what Dylan is getting at in this song, go "Read the book of Revelation" and do some google searches about the fate of its author, the apostle John (hint: he wrote "Revelation" as an old man who had been exiled to a remote island for his preaching about Christ where he was forced into slave labor) spend some time learning about and reading William Blake, especially "The marriage of Heaven and Hell" and the Songs of Innocence/Experience that Tyger Tyger comes from. Give another listen to Lennon's "Imagine" and ponder why there isn't a single reference to what is arguably Lennon's most famous work in a song that, on the surface, seems to be wishing him well in the afterlife.

The general theme of the entire album (Tempest) is this mysterious marriage of the heavenly and hellish here on earth (and even within ourselves) and the burden we each share as watchmen, as prophets, to see it for what it is, to repent of our part in the hellishness of earth, and to take action to make sure that heaven (or whatever your vision of eternal happiness/peace/joy might be) isn't just a blissful idea in our heads, but a reality that we are working towards for the weak and oppressed in our midst. Tempest is about waking up from our own blind pursuit of happiness (or our own blind religious fervor) and working to relievie the hell that another person is going through by our own sacrifice, even knowing to that death is right around the corner for each of us. Somewhere in the midst of this self-sacrificial giving of our lives to others (and perhaps taking some share of Hell onto ourselves), paradoxically, lies our only hope of eternal peace and rest together.

In short, Tempest is about giving up our own dreams (imaginations?) of a religious afterlife/heaven that prevent us from seeing those who suffer here on earth. It is not a rejection of the Christian faith, but of the notion that Christ's goal is save us from the earth rather than saving the earth through our actions.

Roll on John is the perfect ending to this album!


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PostPosted: Mon November 25th, 2013, 20:05 GMT 
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NateW wrote:
Quote:
A plodding, egregious blemish on an otherwise splendid album, its principal merit being its place in the sequence: as the final number, it's painlessly skipped. Now I'll concede that the nautical and outlaw themes are strong; Bob being Bob, he could not but come up with some powerful raw materials. But the song passes beyond redemption with its laughably ham-fisted Beatles lyric and song-title quotations and - above all - by the utterly inexcusable analogy it tries to draw between pop stardom and slavery. One would expect Dylan to know better. Regrettable that "Lenny Bruce" has now been surpassed as the definitive instance of a mawkishly gruesome "tribute" in Bob's canon.


Seriously? You don't think Bob Dylan would be well aware of how "laughably ham-fisted" these lyrics are? Neither this song nor Lenny Bruce are "tribute" songs. They're folk songs. Like "Old John Henry." They're not paying tribute to a historical person, they're not about any specific "analogy," they're using a character or person that people are familiar with as a memorable backdrop to communicate universal truths about human nature, life, character, God, etc.

Dylan is inviting his listener to look deeper, calling him/her to open their eyes and discover for themselves the same truth that he sees incarnated within the stories of these people and in that to understand a little more that which is common to every human being, that which connects every human story.

Dylan DOES know better than to write a trite, kitschy, tribute song, but he does it anyway precisely because he expects that those who really WANT to understand will begin peeling back the layers while those who just want to be critics will feel justified in writing it off.

If you're really interested in understanding what Dylan is getting at in this song, go "Read the book of Revelation" and do some google searches about the fate of its author, the apostle John (hint: he wrote "Revelation" as an old man who had been exiled to a remote island for his preaching about Christ where he was forced into slave labor) spend some time learning about and reading William Blake, especially "The marriage of Heaven and Hell" and the Songs of Innocence/Experience that Tyger Tyger comes from. Give another listen to Lennon's "Imagine" and ponder why there isn't a single reference to what is arguably Lennon's most famous work in a song that, on the surface, seems to be wishing him well in the afterlife.

The general theme of the entire album (Tempest) is this mysterious marriage of the heavenly and hellish here on earth (and even within ourselves) and the burden we each share as watchmen, as prophets, to see it for what it is, to repent of our part in the hellishness of earth, and to take action to make sure that heaven (or whatever your vision of eternal happiness/peace/joy might be) isn't just a blissful idea in our heads, but a reality that we are working towards for the weak and oppressed in our midst. Tempest is about waking up from our own blind pursuit of happiness (or our own blind religious fervor) and working to relievie the hell that another person is going through by our own sacrifice, even knowing to that death is right around the corner for each of us. Somewhere in the midst of this self-sacrificial giving of our lives to others (and perhaps taking some share of Hell onto ourselves), paradoxically, lies our only hope of eternal peace and rest together.

In short, Tempest is about giving up our own dreams (imaginations?) of a religious afterlife/heaven that prevent us from seeing those who suffer here on earth. It is not a rejection of the Christian faith, but of the notion that Christ's goal is save us from the earth rather than saving the earth through our actions.

Roll on John is the perfect ending to this album!



I don't know. Claiming "Dylan DOES know better than to write a trite, kitschy, tribute song but he does it anyway precisely because he expects that those who REALLY want to understand will begin peeling back the layers while those who just want to be critics will feel justified in writing it off......." your argument rests on knowing Dylan's secret intentions about how listeners will approach the song, something no one could possibly know besides Dylan himself. Likely he has no idea what listeners will or won't do, not having any more access to the insides of their heads than listeners have to the inside of his (and possibly he doesn't care). I don't believe he's ever written a song whose art depends on how 'listeners' will chose to interpret it. This seems like the very last thing Dylan would ever do - write something lacking but believing that the listeners intentions will find a way to project a profundity not in his writing. When has he ever left the meaning of his songs up to the audience's willingness to excavate (what seems like a trite) song, instead of just writing a great song? How many times has he told us exactly the opposite - that no one else knows what he meant, that other people's interpretations frequently (he's never said 'always', not yet) have nothing to do with what he wrote. I think he believes what other people bring to his songs is simply what other people bring to his songs - completely independent of him and not necessarily what he meant or intended at all. I can't believe he's ever intentionally written a 'trite, kitschy' song with the hope (?) that a few who try really hard will endow it with more than is there. He doesn't co-write his songs with his 'real' listeners, expecting them to deliver beyond what is in his lyrics. And the idea that he intentionally wrote a 'trite, kitschy' tribute when he could have written something better because some will try to find a hidden or additional meaning other than what he wrote - that may be your defense of the song but it isn't a credible defense.


Dylan's written many great songs about loss but sadly this isn't one of them. He waited more than 30 years to write a song obviously about John Lennon and this is what he came up with. I don't judge it as harshly as you do, as 'trite' and 'kitschy', but I don't think it provides anything interesting about John Lennon (which is not the same as 'it doesn't TELL us anything about John Lennon'). And it doesn't have to, but it doesn't reveal much of anything about what Dylan feels about the loss of Lennon the person either. Lennon seems to exist in the song as a symbol of something, almost a figurehead, which is strange in a song about someone who was Dylan's friend. And while the song didn't have to be confessional or deeply personal, I think something in the song had to convey something 'real' about Lennon, or about the nature of the loss to Dylan. Neither exists in the song.


This is the same thing that's wrong with "Lenny Bruce" - it TELLS us about the importance of Lenny Bruce without ever revealing why Bruce was so meaningful to Dylan, or why Bruce was such a revelation of truth in a hypocritical time. "He sure was funny and he sure told the truth....." Almost anyone could have summed Lenny Bruce up that way. It's trite.


I became a huge fan of Lennon in 1963, and I'm pretty certain I get all the references to him in the song. But it isn't evocative of Lennon for me, or of anything larger. After 30 years, it was gutsy of Dylan to try to capture something about the loss of his friend, an extraordinarily great artist and complicated person. I give him a lot of credit for that. Go listen to Lennon's "julia" again. Or "A Day in the LIfe." Those are Lennon's attempts to write about the departed - a personal, deft way in one, an expansive, epic way in the other. For whatever reason, Dylan didn't manage to do either in this particular song.


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PostPosted: Mon November 25th, 2013, 20:21 GMT 

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Nate--I like your account very much; thanks for taking the time to share. Perhaps another way of putting it, without doubt throughout Tempest (the album) the sacred and the profane rub up against each other in surprising, sometimes shocking, sometimes humorous ways (reminding me of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales).


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PostPosted: Tue November 26th, 2013, 22:54 GMT 
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I really appreciate all the great thoughts here, and I'm hoping that people's insights along with hearing the song develop live (! :) !) will help the song become something that, frankly, I just don't hear right now. I've come to love Lenny Bruce so I guess anything can happen, songs develop a life of their own when played on the road and Dylan's lyrics have a way of settling into place and taking on resonances and meanings as the years pass by. I do believe Dylan knows we put our own meanings there, and his art consists in part of constructing the canvass for us to do just that.

As of this writing, I'm not convinced by the song either mentally or emotionally, and everytime I hear it I can't help but imagine Lennon's snide remarks were he to pop up at a seance and give his two cents.


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PostPosted: Tue November 26th, 2013, 23:29 GMT 

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I actually do like this track, but only because it's good musically. I suggest that people just mentally sing along to it with lyrics they've come up with by themselves.


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PostPosted: Wed May 7th, 2014, 07:39 GMT 

Joined: Wed April 11th, 2007, 04:15 GMT
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In light of this year's recent performances, I feel compelled to shine a light
on the second performance of this song and I can't help but feel that this night and this song
shifted Bob a bit...It's considerably different than the one two nights earlier,
More polished, less raw, the phrasing is exquisite & Bob's singing is clear and tender.

But there's also something much more connected emotionally than usual and it's a constant feeling
I get listening to this recent leg which I think are superb.

Listen to this and hear a true prayer being sung by our man....

London England
November 26 2013
http://www.sendspace.com/file/83w68n


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PostPosted: Wed May 7th, 2014, 08:07 GMT 
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marker wrote:
In light of this year's recent performances, I feel compelled to shine a light
on the second performance of this song and I can't help but feel that this night and this song
shifted Bob a bit...It's considerably different than the one two nights earlier,
More polished, less raw, the phrasing is exquisite & Bob's singing is clear and tender.

But there's also something much more connected emotionally than usual and it's a constant feeling
I get listening to this recent leg which I think are superb.

Listen to this and hear a true prayer being sung by our man....

London England
November 26 2013
http://www.sendspace.com/file/83w68n


Quibbles about the song aside (new Lenny Bruce etc.) - it absolutely was a great performance that night. So glad he played it that night, and it did feel like a gift from Dylan.


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PostPosted: Wed October 8th, 2014, 18:23 GMT 

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Listening today, I realized that one can more easily follow the two narratives (and the two Johns) intertwined in the song simply by skipping verses. Bob even points out which are the "Lennon" verses by the song references.

Probably others have noticed this, interesting.

Doctor, doctor tell me the time of day!
Another bottle's empty, another penny spent.
He turned around and he slowly walked away.
They shot him in the back and down he went.

From the Liverpool docks to the red-light Hamburg streets,
Down in the quarry with the Quarrymen
Playing to the big crowds, playing to the cheap seats.
Another day in the life on your way to your journey's end.

I heard the news today, oh boy
They hauled your ship up on the shore
Now the city gone dark, there is no more joy.
They tore the heart right out and cut him to the core.

Slow down you're moving way too fast,
Come together right now over me.
Your bones are weary, you're about to breathe your last.
Lord, you know how hard it can be!

*

Sailin' through the trade winds bound for the South
Rags on your back just like any other slave.
They tied your hands and they clamped your mouth.
Wasn't no way out of that deep dark cave

Put on your bags and get 'em packed.
Leave right now, you won't be far from wrong.
The sooner you go the quicker you'll be back.
You've been cooped up on an island far too long.

Roll on, John, roll through the rain and snow.
Take the right-hand road and go where the buffalos roam.
They'll trap you in an ambush before you know.
Too late now to sail back home.

Tyger, tyger, burnin' bright
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
In the forest of the night
Cover him over and let him sleep.


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PostPosted: Thu October 9th, 2014, 02:32 GMT 

Joined: Mon April 6th, 2009, 20:28 GMT
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AngelWithFourFaces wrote:
Listening today, I realized that one can more easily follow the two narratives (and the two Johns) intertwined in the song simply by skipping verses. Bob even points out which are the "Lennon" verses by the song references.

Probably others have noticed this, interesting.

Doctor, doctor tell me the time of day!
Another bottle's empty, another penny spent.
He turned around and he slowly walked away.
They shot him in the back and down he went.

From the Liverpool docks to the red-light Hamburg streets,
Down in the quarry with the Quarrymen
Playing to the big crowds, playing to the cheap seats.
Another day in the life on your way to your journey's end.

I heard the news today, oh boy
They hauled your ship up on the shore
Now the city gone dark, there is no more joy.
They tore the heart right out and cut him to the core.

Slow down you're moving way too fast,
Come together right now over me.
Your bones are weary, you're about to breathe your last.
Lord, you know how hard it can be!

*

Sailin' through the trade winds bound for the South
Rags on your back just like any other slave.
They tied your hands and they clamped your mouth.
Wasn't no way out of that deep dark cave

Put on your bags and get 'em packed.
Leave right now, you won't be far from wrong.
The sooner you go the quicker you'll be back.
You've been cooped up on an island far too long.

Roll on, John, roll through the rain and snow.
Take the right-hand road and go where the buffalos roam.
They'll trap you in an ambush before you know.
Too late now to sail back home.

Tyger, tyger, burnin' bright
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
In the forest of the night
Cover him over and let him sleep.


It doesn't hold-up, though--Dylan seldom seems to be particularly linear in his thinking. For a start--and not wishing to sound too literal--if you are referring to Patmos (as St John of Patmos), it was supposedly barren with, as far as I know, little in the way of buffalo (though I can see how the preceding two verses work); also, the earlier "quarry" reference would surely speak to both John's, John of Patmos being enslaved working in the Patmos mines.


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PostPosted: Thu October 9th, 2014, 02:41 GMT 
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Tyger, tyger, burnin' bright
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
In the forest of the night
Cover him over and let him sleep.

Perhaps it's forced, but I love how this sums up Tempest. The Blake poem referenced is Tempest.


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PostPosted: Mon September 26th, 2016, 23:52 GMT 
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John B. Stetson wrote:
We'll see if, like so many other Dylan records, this final song points toward a next record.


If we don't count covers and reissues of previous time periods then we don't quite know yet, do we?


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PostPosted: Tue September 27th, 2016, 21:43 GMT 
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I'm still haunted (in a good way !) by "Roll on John," which I had the massive good fortune to hear premiered in Blackpool, in 2013. The song, although ostensibly "simple," with it's Lennon reminiscences, is strange in it's own way, possibly a little mawkish to some ears, and coming a long time after John's shocking death. I was searching for a bit more background, and stumbled across the traditional song of the same title which, it turns out, Bob himself covered back in his Greenwich Days. Some interesting bits and Bob's along the way.

First,John Herald of The Greenbriar Boys, talks Dylan on fiddle (!) and references a folksong "Roll on John" sung by Rufus Crisp ...

http://www.manumitschool.com/people/stu ... ohn-hearld

https://youtu.be/wsjUzXDYEBc

https://youtu.be/go38Yac_fPw

http://www.folkways.si.edu/rufus-crisp/ ... mithsonian

http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/old-t ... 008780.HTM

https://youtu.be/0ookTRe7eBs
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainmen ... ip/262680/

https://youtu.be/P9MCXJuG3KA

https://youtu.be/Obaw_DzjlwI

...can't imagine the early "Roll on John" wasn't lurking in Bob's mind, when the "Tempest" vision began to bubble up in his subconscious. Others may know


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PostPosted: Sat June 24th, 2017, 23:18 GMT 

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When I was first getting into Tempest this was one track that just didn't connect. The 'come together' line just made me cringe so hard. The other Beatles references were a little goofy but had enough charm to pull it off. I also thought that the Blake verse seemed somewhat tacked on. Anyway, I did the unforgivable and used some software to edit it. Cut out those two parts and retained the nice instrumental section at the end. Now I can listen to it without cringing I think it's a great track. :lol: It's also considerably shorter now which helps.


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PostPosted: Sun June 25th, 2017, 01:56 GMT 
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Great song!


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PostPosted: Sun June 25th, 2017, 07:41 GMT 
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frenchdog wrote:
When I was first getting into Tempest this was one track that just didn't connect. The 'come together' line just made me cringe so hard. The other Beatles references were a little goofy but had enough charm to pull it off. I also thought that the Blake verse seemed somewhat tacked on. Anyway, I did the unforgivable and used some software to edit it. Cut out those two parts and retained the nice instrumental section at the end. Now I can listen to it without cringing I think it's a great track. :lol: It's also considerably shorter now which helps.


To be fair, you could apply that technique to most of Dylan's songs.


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PostPosted: Sun June 25th, 2017, 07:59 GMT 
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McG wrote:

To be fair, you could apply that technique to most of Dylan's songs.


eh???

if you're referring to post-97 dylan, you might have a point, though weak.

if you're referring to the 64-76 great BOB DYLAN, either you're kidding or you're in the wrong place, my friend.

Do you really think Sad-Eyed Lady, Johanna, Rolling Stone, Desolation, It's Alright, Hard Rain are too long?

:roll: :roll: :roll:


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PostPosted: Sun June 25th, 2017, 12:35 GMT 
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Giuseppe Gazerro wrote:
McG wrote:

To be fair, you could apply that technique to most of Dylan's songs.


eh???

if you're referring to post-97 dylan, you might have a point, though weak.

if you're referring to the 64-76 great BOB DYLAN, either you're kidding or you're in the wrong place, my friend.

Do you really think Sad-Eyed Lady, Johanna, Rolling Stone, Desolation, It's Alright, Hard Rain are too long?

:roll: :roll: :roll:


Yep. Dylan badly needs an editor at times.

And as you don't like 'New Pony' or 'Isis', that automatically disqualifies you from arguing with me.


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PostPosted: Sun June 25th, 2017, 13:55 GMT 
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McG wrote:

Yep. Dylan badly needs an editor at times.

And as you don't like 'New Pony' or 'Isis', that automatically disqualifies you from arguing with me.



Don't worry.
i'm not interesting in arguing with someone thinking Dylan's masterpieces are too long.
I'd rather argue with a fan of Justin Bieber, omophobic and Trump supporter.

And New Pony is not my piece of cake; but Isis is easily in my top10 Dylan ever.

Obviously you must have misunderstood one of my posts or confused with someone else's.
Which is only natural, for one who can't read much.


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PostPosted: Sun June 25th, 2017, 14:27 GMT 

Joined: Fri July 18th, 2008, 16:22 GMT
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marker wrote:
In light of this year's recent performances, I feel compelled to shine a light
on the second performance of this song and I can't help but feel that this night and this song
shifted Bob a bit...It's considerably different than the one two nights earlier,
More polished, less raw, the phrasing is exquisite & Bob's singing is clear and tender.

But there's also something much more connected emotionally than usual and it's a constant feeling
I get listening to this recent leg which I think are superb.

Listen to this and hear a true prayer being sung by our man....

London England
November 26 2013
http://www.sendspace.com/file/83w68n



Bingo...


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PostPosted: Fri September 29th, 2017, 07:23 GMT 
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Hey does anyone have another link to a different version of that song? I really like listening to the youtube one because it does make me think, sorta takes me out of day to day life. I really like that line where hes like "tiger tiger" or something. I almost forget what im doing when he gets that far into the song lol the rythem and sorta uplifting nature it has is really great. Dispite what some of the others may think


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 09:56 GMT 

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Chief Commander wrote:
I like the song, to be sure, but it seems out of place in the context of this album. I'm wiling to be proven wrong, though . . .


No, there is a context. The Album Tempest is about Homers Odyssee and John is a modern Odysseus, who does not get back home


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PostPosted: Sat September 30th, 2017, 10:27 GMT 
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redbear wrote:
Chief Commander wrote:
I like the song, to be sure, but it seems out of place in the context of this album. I'm wiling to be proven wrong, though . . .


No, there is a context. The Album Tempest is about Homers Odyssee and John is a modern Odysseus, who does not get back home


No.


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PostPosted: Tue October 3rd, 2017, 18:45 GMT 

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@ Mickvet: Any Arguments?


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PostPosted: Tue October 3rd, 2017, 19:55 GMT 
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Sorry, redbear, I just don't have the energy any more :) . Let's just leave it that, while I have my own ideas on what Tempest is about, I don't see it like you suggest.


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PostPosted: Wed October 4th, 2017, 10:21 GMT 

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ok and thanks!


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