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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:53 GMT 

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Bennyboy wrote:
I think the forum has a virus

No, but we do have an excellent troll.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:54 GMT 
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And how we choose to spend our time is surely none of your business. I could equally ask you why you just spent time typing those words criticising me for spending my time criticising this song. But would the irony be lost on you, I wonder?

:lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:54 GMT 
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And, as for 'sound and fury signifying nothing', I disagree with your (BBoy's) formulation (as I understand it).

It isn't about nothing. It's about a character(s) whose relationship to the world is cynical and selfish. That embraces a kind of bullying, dominating and gleeful attitude.

That could just as much be a criticism of that attitude as an identification with it. But what he doesn't do is show us the vulnerable and exposed soul of anyone or anything.

Why? Is it not possible?


Last edited by MMD on Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:58 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:57 GMT 
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Troubadour64 wrote:

vulnerability is over-done, trite and out of date. Hasn't anybody seen a whiney indy band lately? Dylan, as always, is a frontiersman. Plenty of vulnerability on his eighties albums though, in case anybody cares to apply their debating skills on the Summer Listening Series threads! :wink:

p.s. Nice point Gerard!


My point was that what passes for vulnerability, isn't. It's selfish, self-loathing. That is cultural. It's not open to love and loss. Just listen to the songs.

You're a Big GIrl Now, Idiot Wind, I Threw It All Away -- that's vulnerability. And it isn't ironic. It's self-aware. And it's thoughtful. And it's keening.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:59 GMT 
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Ok - 'Meet Me In The Morning' pisses all over those other songs you mention.

More soon.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:00 GMT 
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Bennyboy wrote:
Ok - 'Meet Me In The Morning' pisses all over those other songs you mention.

More soon.


Alright, now you've gone too far! Ha. You'd better make a good case.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:03 GMT 
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MMD wrote:
Bennyboy wrote:
Ok - 'Meet Me In The Morning' pisses all over those other songs you mention.

More soon.


Alright, now you've gone too far! Ha. You'd better make a good case.


I was, of course, responding to Gerard.

My comparison between Meet Me In The Morning and ERK stands. Of course it does - it's rock solid.

But if I'm asked how MMITM stacks up against Forgetful Heart or any of the other recent slow ones, well let the pissing on from a great height commence.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:05 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
i guess im your no 2 obsession. :D
sicko. :wink:


Nothing sicko about me, and no obsessions, 1, 2, 3 or whatever. I can't help it if you're dependably, laughably and publicly idiotic, on a daily basis- and from your track record, neither can you.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:05 GMT 
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jman wrote:
Bennyboy wrote:
I think the forum has a virus

No, but we do have an excellent troll.


sssh, jman - Goombay is quite sensitive underneath that slackjawed exterior.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:07 GMT 
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MMD wrote:
Troubadour64 wrote:

vulnerability is over-done, trite and out of date. Hasn't anybody seen a whiney indy band lately? Dylan, as always, is a frontiersman. Plenty of vulnerability on his eighties albums though, in case anybody cares to apply their debating skills on the Summer Listening Series threads! :wink:

p.s. Nice point Gerard!


My point was that what passes for vulnerability, isn't. It's selfish, self-loathing. That is cultural. It's not open to love and loss. Just listen to the songs.

You're a Big GIrl Now, Idiot Wind, I Threw It All Away -- that's vulnerability. And it isn't ironic. It's self-aware. And it's thoughtful. And it's keening.


Life is Hard & This Dream of You sound pretty vulnerable to me.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:09 GMT 
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Troubadour64 wrote:

Life is Hard & This Dream of You sound pretty vulnerable to me.


Nostalgia and treacle are a stubborn problem in both. Same with When the Deal Goes Down. Worth sorting out though.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:10 GMT 
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sssh, jman - Goombay is quite sensitive underneath that slackjawed exterior.


:lol: :lol:

dont flatter yourself. :D
:D
you are on the record with sociopath commentary.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:27 GMT 
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Train-I-Ride wrote:
goombay wrote:
i guess im your no 2 obsession. :D
sicko. :wink:


Nothing sicko about me, and no obsessions, 1, 2, 3 or whatever. I can't help it if you're dependably, laughably and publicly idiotic, on a daily basis- and from your track record, neither can you.


:o
nothing at all, mommy dearest. no obsessions at all. :lol: :lol:

that daily basis thing, maybe i can ask the forum to organize a dating service for you. :D


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:29 GMT 

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MMD wrote:
Troubadour64 wrote:

Life is Hard & This Dream of You sound pretty vulnerable to me.


Nostalgia and treacle are a stubborn problem in both. Same with When the Deal Goes Down. Worth sorting out though.



I don't understand why nostalgia should undercut vulnerability.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:43 GMT 
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NZ,
I haven't worked it out fully, but here's an honest try.

It's a cooler, more distant and less exposed form of engagement with something than say, heartbreak. I can be nostalgic for something lost but not be wrecked by it, not need it, not feel my life wrapped up in it -- that is, not be on the line for it. BennyBoy (and each of us, I would hope) may be nostalgic for a past love, but not be put at risk by his or her loss. On the other hand, each of us, on the way to work, can feel undone, can feel terrified at the risk of losing the person we love.

That can play out selfishly, but, for the sake of our souls, I hope it doesn't always.

The weakness of When the Deal Goes Down, which I like, is that is is formulated in nostalgic tones (music, phrasing). It feels less powerful, despite aiming at just the kind of vulnerability I love in Dylan's work.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:50 GMT 
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but how many 70+ year old bachelors deal with romantic heartbreak on a day to day basis, MMD ? They deal with death and loss, and heartache for things that once were...


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 21:56 GMT 

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MMD, that makes sense. Although to me it is just another mode of vulnerability, maybe less "I am falling apart before your very eyes" than the one you favor. I am not sure that I see this other mode as weak. The type of nostalgia expressed in these songs acknowledges that scars from long past wounds can still hurt, and that we never really recover from heartbreak.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:08 GMT 
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Troubadour64 wrote:
but how many 70+ year old bachelors deal with romantic heartbreak on a day to day basis, MMD ? They deal with death and loss, and heartache for things that once were...


And bitter renunciation of the world that shall soon dispose of him.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:08 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
Train-I-Ride wrote:
Nothing sicko about me, and no obsessions, 1, 2, 3 or whatever. I can't help it if you're dependably, laughably and publicly idiotic, on a daily basis- and from your track record, neither can you.


:o
nothing at all, mommy dearest. no obsessions at all. :lol: :lol:

that daily basis thing, maybe i can ask the forum to organize a dating service for you. :D


Comebacks aren't really your forte, are they? Never mind, keep going with the emoticons, and you'll eventually get that gig as a pre-school TV Greil Marcus for the cerebrally challenged.


Last edited by Train-I-Ride on Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:20 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:16 GMT 
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Ain't Talkin' wrote:
Troubadour64 wrote:
but how many 70+ year old bachelors deal with romantic heartbreak on a day to day basis, MMD ? They deal with death and loss, and heartache for things that once were...


And bitter renunciation of the world that shall soon dispose of him.


NZ, Troub...
I hope that I am still wildly in love at that age, still open to it, and not just nostalgic for the days of passion past. And death is the ultimate risk of love. So, no need for it to be relegated to a post-loving stage. But yes, that does seem to be what Dylan is expressing.

But, I am thinking as I type here. I, obviously, don't have an absolute read on this. And of course, if someone has a stronger argument, I am open to it.

And, Ain't Talkin', nice tag.


Last edited by MMD on Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:27 GMT, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:19 GMT 
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Bennyboy wrote:

Nobody's attacking Bob Dylan the individual - rather, we're looking at Bob Dylan's recent songs and seeing similarities of aesthetic and philosophy and symbolism and construction.


Yeah. I think it's misreading to think that anyone here is attacking Bob Dylan the person. I think the critical discussion is about Dylan as a performing artist, Dylan as a songwriter. When discussing EARLY ROMAN KINGS I'm assuming that we all know the "I" speaking in the song is a character in the song, and the character may or may not represent anything that Bob Dylan thinks or believes. A Dylan song is always telling a story. Any discussion of the characters or narrators in the songs, and characteristics they may possess, are not about the private person who is Bob Dylan. I figure almost everybody was pretty much clear about that and that Dylan is not being directly attacked if someone doesn't like the song or his current work.

I agree with Benny's post - please bring your own interpretation of the work, or disagreements about what others think it's about. Everybody is open and interested in the opinions of others, we're all here because of an interest in Dylan. Happy to hear from everyone. Discussion of the songs or the direction that Bob may be going in his work is really interesting and open to speculation by anyone. All points of view are equally valid and hopefully welcome.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:22 GMT 
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train i ride said:
Comebacks aren't really your forte, are they? Never mind, keep going with the emoticons, and you'll eventually get that gig as a pre-school TV Greil Marcus.


:lol:
of course, mommy dearest. by the way was putting up that benny photo a sort of freudian slip? :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:25 GMT 
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Yeah. I think it's misreading to think that anyone here is attacking Bob Dylan the person.


:D
so i guess they found the culprit that broke into the workplace, bob been exonerated? :wink:
its in the q and a. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:32 GMT 

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I ain't dead yet
My bell still rings


...If this refers to the narrator's virility then perhaps the following...

Ding Dong Daddy
You're coming up short


...is a euphemism for sexual dysfunction.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 22:47 GMT 
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MMD wrote:

NZ, Troub...
I hope that I am still wildly in love at that age, still open to it, and not just nostalgic for the days of passion past. And death is the ultimate risk of love. So, no need for it to be relegated to a post-loving stage. But yes, that does seem to be what Dylan is expressing.

But, I am thinking as I type here. I, obviously, don't have an absolute read on this. And of course, if someone has a stronger argument, I am open to it.

And, Ain't Talkin', nice tag.


Agreed, I like that Ain't talkin'

MMD - I wish you the best of luck - I do know that it happens, I've seen it - second marriages that begin at 80!

Quote:
And death is the ultimate risk of love.


I always thought marriage was the ultimate risk of love ! :lol: :lol: :lol:


20yearsofschooling wrote:
I ain't dead yet
My bell still rings


...If this refers to the narrator's virility then perhaps the following...

Ding Dong Daddy
You're coming up short


...is a euphemism for sexual dysfunction.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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