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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 20:41 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
^^
Too late, the all-knowing, omnipotent jury already decided against it.




lacking in musicology, their decision is null and void among music lovers. :D


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 20:45 GMT 
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patford wrote:
It never surprises me when people dislike, or even hate, what Dylan is doing. What is surprising is how many people there are who have time and money to burn on things they don't like. When I don't like music I pay no attention to it.



do you have a source for this outrageous notion? paying no attention to music and artists you don't like? incendiary idea. :D


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 20:46 GMT 
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SirDogg wrote:
Just got back from a whole week at work, and hear through this track for the first time.
All I can say is... BOBBBBYYY!! You've done it again! Magnificent song! 8)
Can't wait to hear the rest of 'em!

Hi SirDogg! Nice to have you back.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 21:07 GMT 

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Beautiful, Roy Acuff is great.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 21:09 GMT 
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patford wrote:
Beautiful, Roy Acuff is great.


I couldn't find Bob's version online....


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 22:06 GMT 
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BennyBoy, Rev, Moving_..., GIada, et al.,

Isn't Masked and Anonymous the most explicit statement of Dylan's world view? And isn't it unsatisfying, even cynical? That's the world of Dylan's characters, I think.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 22:13 GMT 
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^^
It's the story of his life - one of his most honest works. It's hugely underrated among his works.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 22:17 GMT 
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I don't know, I have to watch it again. I do think he thinks the world is screwed, but I also think the fear of the coming apocalypse or whatever is gone, at least in L&T.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 22:19 GMT 
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I think he holds on to an apocalyptic world view, that's what I see in everything he does now.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 22:20 GMT 
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I agree. It is a really great film. I think it is very forthright in a Dylanesque way.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 22:21 GMT 
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Johanna Parker wrote:
I think he holds on to an apocalyptic world view, that's what I see in everything he does now.

Yeah, it's always been there.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 22:24 GMT 
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raging_glory wrote:
I agree. It is a really great film. I think it is very forthright in a Dylanesque way.


You can find the screenplay here if you've not seen it.
http://dylanstubs.com/downloads.htm


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 22:24 GMT 
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I truly believe the last verse of Early Roman Kings is apocalyptic in nature. I think it's what the whole song is leading up to, the statement it's ultimately making. "They killed 'em all off and they sent 'em to hell" is the character's prophetic statement, not something that happened in the past. I may be way off here, but that's how I see it. Of course, I don't think that means Bob necessarily believes it, but it's the mode he's writing in on this song.

It's also the mode M&A was written in. And yeah, I think that's a very underrated film. Weird as hell, but an entertaining, artistic mishmash.

By the by, here's a "legitimate" source to listen to the song online. To my ears, the sound quality is slightly better than on YouTube. I don't know if you need a mog.com account (I have one):

https://mog.com/m#album/71545073


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:12 GMT 
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Belle Laugh wrote:
Rev! It's terrible and depressing to go back there, if you have ever been when it was a great place to visit. Beautiful old neighborhoods by the thousands boarded up, abandoned, gang-riddled. Some places being torn down rather than sold in an attempt to just keep the crime down. That's basically what I meant. Because that's what I get out of Early Roman Kings, to some extent, at least in this first understanding.

Although, I sure do love Bob's delivery of that "in their shark-skin suits" :lol: Also, though, may be a different kind of shark.



Belle, this reminded me of something. A friend of mine was in Detroit filming an interview with Kwame Kilpatrick in 2007 - cresting of the subprime mortgage crisis - they were walking around in a neighborhood in Detroit that my friend described as a beautiful neighborhood with lovely homes and as he walked around the area with Kilpatrick, Kilpatrick would point at houses and say "That one's empty, empty, empty, empty, empty....." My friend said that he thought that about 70-80% of the houses they walked by were empty. Kilpatrick told him that he and a bunch of his friends were working with the homeowners to make sure the houses looked occupied (to keep people from gutting them or using them as squats) and that he had gone out on some weekends and mowed lawns himself in that neighborhood to help people keep up the fiction that the neighborhood hadn't been cleared out by foreclosures. The mortgage lenders had plundered that neighborhood.

I like the reading of the narrators by toilandblood - a first one seems to be bemoaning how terrible things are who may then be overwhelmed by the bullying second one, who kind of seems to put his boot on the neck of the first speaker. I thought maybe the 'ain't afraid to make love to a bitch or a hag' might be like the lenders were willing to say anything to woo unqualified buyers into entering contracts. That line "bring down my fiddle" brings to mind the notorious Emperor Nero, who reportedly fiddled while Rome burned. Heir to the throne in a powerful political family, Nero was a sleazy character who irresponsibly slashed taxes to curry favor. Following the burning of Rome, Nero held gladiatorial spectacles to distract the populace and also embarked on various huge construction projects. The enormous construction necessitated funding that the treasury of Rome could not afford, so Nero devalued the currency of Rome for the first time in the history of the Empire (some of you are raising your eyebrows, I know....). Nero eventually committed suicide before he could be executed for corruption. Most of the stories of Nero come to us from the historian Tacitus, whom Bob named in an interview in the 1980s in "INTERVIEW" magazine as his favorite writer. Dylan previously referred to Nero in "Desolation Row" -

Praise be to Nero's Neptune
The Titanic sails at dawn
And everybody's shouting
"Which Side Are You On?"

"Which Side Are You On?" is a song written in 1931 by Florence Reese, whose husband was an organizer for the United Mine Workers of Harlan County, Kentucky, during the horrific conflict between the UMW and the mine owners. Reese wrote the song one night after law enforcement barged into her home in search of her husband and terrorized her family. The song, widely associated with the union movement, has been covered by many including:
Pete Seeger, Dropkick Murphys and Natalie Merchant ( :wink:).

Thanks for the memory jog, Belle, and to toilandblood for the insight about unreliable narration.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:20 GMT 
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^^
See. This is what a thread can do. Thanks rev, belle, et al.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:24 GMT 
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Giada wrote:
I don't know, I have to watch it again. I do think he thinks the world is screwed, but I also think the fear of the coming apocalypse or whatever is gone, at least in L&T.


Where is this optimism that you speak of in Love and Theft? I'm genuinely curious. High Water? Sugar Baby? Summer Days?

I'll accept that the mood of the music seems optimistic enough. I find that ironic when paired with the lyrics though...


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:24 GMT 
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MMD wrote:
BennyBoy, Rev, Moving_..., GIada, et al.,

Isn't Masked and Anonymous the most explicit statement of Dylan's world view? And isn't it unsatisfying, even cynical? That's the world of Dylan's characters, I think.



That's what I've been thinking of all day, MMD. I agree wholeheartedly - M&A was a very cynical. scary view of the world as it may become. I agree with Benny - the later songs are becoming more violent, pointing toward that apocalyptic world that he paints in M&A. I can only hope that the last song offers a little bit of goodness in a world gone wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:26 GMT 
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Troubadour64 wrote:
Giada wrote:
I don't know, I have to watch it again. I do think he thinks the world is screwed, but I also think the fear of the coming apocalypse or whatever is gone, at least in L&T.


Where is this optimism that you speak of in Love and Theft? I'm genuinely curious. High Water? Sugar Baby? Summer Days?

I'll accept that the mood of the music seems optimistic enough. I find that ironic when paired with the lyrics though...


It's dancing in the graveyard, I think. Defying doom for as long as possible.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:31 GMT 
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^Yes. And I didn't say optimism, I said the fear is gone.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:34 GMT 
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^^ I disagree JP. It's darker than that. It's grimly smiling in carnage. It's not life affirming in any contemporary sort of way. It's far darker and more pessimistic that the ars moriendi tradition or the danse macabre. It seems more like a dark acceptance of the inherent ineradicable evil in the hearts of all -- one's own not excepted. Always on the verge of turning wrong.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:39 GMT 
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Giada wrote:
^Yes. And I didn't say optimism, I said the fear is gone.


Okay, thanks for clarifying! sorry i misread earlier.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:46 GMT 

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A mash up of 'Early Roman Kings' and the eponymous early release single from Tom Waits' 'Bad As Me' could sound fun.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:49 GMT 
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MMD wrote:
^^ I disagree JP. It's darker than that. It's grimly smiling in carnage. It's not life affirming in any contemporary sort of way. It's far darker and more pessimistic that the ars moriendi tradition or the danse macabre. It seems more like a dark acceptance of the inherent ineradicable evil in the hearts of all -- one's own not excepted. Always on the verge of turning wrong.


Bob's not in a contemporary sort of way - hasn't been since GAIBTY at least. Of course, with an apocalyptic world view, he's always aware of the element of Cain inside everyone. You need to look no further than the first song on "LAT" and it's right there, both Cain and Abel, except that they are both the same person trying to divide into the dark and the less dark side. Or Summer Days, which ends right on an affirmative statement, as opposed to R&T on the next album. It's a fighting for light album, as opposed to the dying of light in TOOM.


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PostPosted: Thu August 9th, 2012, 23:55 GMT 
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Btw, whoever said that Joey's dishonesty is grating, do you feel the same way about 'Jesse James' & 'Pretty Boy Floyd'? Because those 2 songs also took their characters out of their historical contexts and romanticized them. It's the outlaw ballad tradition. BD did the same thing with John Wesley Hardin.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 00:01 GMT 
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Giada wrote:
Btw, whoever said that Joey's dishonesty is grating, do you feel the same way about 'Jesse James' & 'Pretty Boy Floyd'? Because those 2 songs also took their characters out of their historical contexts and romanticized them. It's the outlaw ballad tradition. BD did the same thing with John Wesley Hardin.


Romantic outlaw isn't a new concept, from JWH to Joey and Hurricane and Lenny Bruce, and I wonder if the b word was cut from Abandoned Desire....


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