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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:26 GMT 
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Harry Truman wrote:
Please give us your considered analysis of the lyrics of the song, if it pleases you.



my considered analysis is that calling a bob song sociopath talk is the wrong road to walk on. :D


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:30 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
raging_glory wrote:
Back to the ol' sociopath argument. More than one way to skin a cat. If you can't make direct accusations, let's accuse tihe narrarator in the song. Or is it Bob that is being labeled this way again?



there has to be something wrong with dedicating your life to the very artist you dislike the most. :idea:
bob continues to be the best, learn to accept it and move on. i mean, its not like their anti bob diatribes are gonna change anything. :D they could learn to like something other than the things they hate. :D


Why bother mate? I mean, seriously - why dog me like this? I haven't dedicated my life to anything, grow up. And I don't remember ever reading anything deeper from you than retreads of I HEART BOB and BOB RULZ


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:33 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
Harry Truman wrote:
Please give us your considered analysis of the lyrics of the song, if it pleases you.



my considered analysis is that calling a bob song sociopath talk is the wrong road to walk on. :D


Where do I call Bob a sociopath? Again, please engage brain before posting.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:36 GMT 
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Why bother mate? I mean, seriously - why dog me like this? I haven't dedicated my life to anything, grow up. And I don't remember ever reading anything deeper from you than retreads of I HEART BOB and BOB RULZ

:lol:

my posts reflect the normal everyday mental state of someone who would post in bob dylan forum. :o


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:36 GMT 
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I don't want to be a dick, but checking in on threads would be much more rewarding if people just didn't reply to comments they found useless in the first place. There is a good discussion happening somewhere in all these threads.

Why harp on someone's opinion that a song doesn't say anything without offering up what you think it says? If someone does so, why worry about it?


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:38 GMT 
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All those who think Goombay speaks for them, raise their hands.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:38 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
Harry Truman wrote:
Please give us your considered analysis of the lyrics of the song, if it pleases you.



my considered analysis is that calling a bob song sociopath talk is the wrong road to walk on. :D



??

Might as well say

Image


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:41 GMT 
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Quote:

??

Might as well say

Image

[/quote]

my advice would be to make a uturn. :D of course you may choose to proceed.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:47 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
I don't want to be a dick, but checking in on threads would be much more rewarding if people just didn't reply to comments they found useless in the first place. There is a good discussion happening somewhere in all these threads.

Why harp on someone's opinion that a song doesn't say anything without offering up what you think it says? If someone does so, why worry about it?



don't matter some things are as they are, you gonna disrespect bob here in a bob forum im gonna have a say on it, its not popular work but someone has to do it. :D obviously im not in the running to win any popularity contests but don't bother me much. :D

its like spend all day just trying to figure out new ways to dis bob instead of going out and doing something constuctive. :D
maybe riding a scooter would be a good idea,


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:52 GMT 
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^maybe...but Dylan doesn't need you running to his defense either. He could easily have Bennyboy killed by wild dogs if he wished.


Anyway, what I like about this song:

The way D's punnery and vocal delivery conspire to make "fly by night, like those early roman kings" into a declaration of the impermanance and superficiality of what any of us can hope to accomplish here.

The language itself, always shifting...I'm not good at describing it but poetry surely has something to do with the almost tactile pleasure of how the words fly by. This song is always headed in new directions, never settles into a rut. The language is not a total break from what he's been doing on recent albums but does seem different.

I like how he says that his bell still rings with so much pathos I forget he's been saying it on every album going back at least 15 years.

I like, on some level, the narrator talking as though possibly one of the oppressors, because sometimes yer just so fed up you almost wouldn't mind going if you could take a few of the bastards down with you.

I like the juxtaposition of the different eras, from sharkskin suits to vaguely mythical beings delivering corn to railroad barons to today's news (as well as yesterdays) about gutted cites...I especially like the parallel between the economic devastation of Detroit and the city falling, as though in war.

I like the "ding dong daddy" part.

What I don't like:

I don't know what this song is about or why it exists :P


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 15:54 GMT 
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I think the forum has a virus


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 19:25 GMT 
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Back up and working now. Wonder if those early Roman Kings had something to do with it?

One quick aside - I still cant listen to the song without hearing "Fly away Rover..."

Insert joke about Bob feeling ruff here.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 19:38 GMT 

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smoke wrote:
mikesnyc wrote:
one songwriter (at least for me, your experience may be different) who does that in a disarming, many times 'laugh-out-loud funny but then unexpectedly deep' kind of way is Loudon Wainwright III, particularly his more recent stuff... do you know his stuff (not the one semi-'hit song' he did 'dead skunk' but the stuff he's been doing about families and relationships in the last 20 or 25 years)



History is a wonderful album, just wonderful. I haven't kept up too well with him though - what else is good?




just saw your post-- a few other LWIII albums worth getting, other then "History", include 'little ship', 'last man on earth', the live 'so damm happy', the charlie poole project 2 cd set 'high wide and handsome', and his most recent 'older then my old man now'.


back to the topic at hand tho---


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 19:46 GMT 
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Nice post Smoke - I like those things too. I like the bass line.

I keep hearing "drive by inspections" instead of 'driving the spikes in'. If he said inspections, I'd like the way it came off.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 19:51 GMT 
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Bennyboy wrote:
MMD wrote:
BennyBoy, Rev, Moving_..., GIada, et al.,

Isn't Masked and Anonymous the most explicit statement of Dylan's world view? And isn't it unsatisfying, even cynical? That's the world of Dylan's characters, I think.



Masked & Anonymous is a godawful, pretentious, risible film. Whatever 'philosophy' is espoused seems to be drawn from the grumpy old man school of barstool bollocks, aiming for profundity but drowning in the puddle of delusion.

And Dylan's acting and singing are utterly awful to boot.

Say what you like about 'Renaldo & Clara', but it has some real human warmth and compassion at its heart, and white-hot music pumping through its coked-up veins.

And thats the difference really between Dylan of the 70s and Dylan of post-Oh Mercy. As the retreat into the gnomic bubble intensified, the connection with humanity shrank, the bile rose and the music suffered.


BBoy,
It might be all of the things you say (too harsh by a little, I think), but I think we agree on the key point: cynicism and pessimism where the heart fo the film ought to be. The characters manifest various states of corruption and self-serving. That is all. And the Fate character is just resigned to it. THat's all there is. And, getting ahead of myself a little, tenderness? Only a memory that we can't quite get in focus (the affair he once had -- lecherous and treacherous as is turns out -- and in that bed there is now a corpse). That is, tenderness is gone.

That's Dylan's vision. That's what there is in the persona that sings almost all of his songs. There are exceptions, and I'll get to those in a second.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 19:59 GMT 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuuTbwnLsbk

"I was always a singer and maybe no more then that. Sometimes it's not enough to know the meaning of things, sometimes we have to know what things don't mean as well. Like what does it mean to not know what the person you love is capable of? Things fall apart, especially all the neat order of rules and laws. The way we look at the world is the way we really are. See it from a fair garden and everything looks cheerful. Climb to a higher plateau and you'll see plunder and murder. Truth and beauty are in the eye of the beholder. I stopped trying to figure everything out a long time ago."


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:08 GMT 
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Quote:
smoke wrote:
^maybe...but Dylan doesn't need you running to his defense either. He could easily have Bennyboy killed by wild dogs if he wished.


irrelevant. :wink:

like clockwork you gonna hear from me. aint selling out. :D


Last edited by goombay on Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:20 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:15 GMT 
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Bennyboy wrote:
You know - this morning on the way to work, I listened to 'Early Roman Kings' (I keep wanting to type Early Morning Rain for some reason! Ha.) back to back with 'Meet Me In the Morning' (there we go - its a morning thing) and aside from the singing quality differential, the thing that struck me like a lightning bolt was this:

The Dylan of 'Meet Me In The Morning' is in a dynamic subject-object relationship throughout the song. He is singing to the 'honey' he had, who he lost, who still lives in his every pore. He is supplicant to his desire for reunification, for the heat of that relationship to be rekindled. And even though this song is very simple, lyrically, he manages to say more and touch me more in one simple double line repeated verse than he does in the whole of 'Early Morning Kings'.

Meet me in the morning 56th and Wabasha
Meet me in the morning 56th and Wabasha
Honey we could be in Kansas
By time the snow begins to thaw.

They say the darkest hour is right before the dawn
They say the darkest hour is right before the dawn
But you wouldn't know it by me
Every day's been darkness since you been gone.

Little rooster crowing there must be something on his mind
Little rooster crowing there must be something on his mind
Well I feel just like that rooster
Honey ya treat me so unkind.

Well I struggled through barbed wire felt the hail fall from above
Well I struggled through barbed wire felt the hail fall from above
Well you know I even outran the hound dogs
Honey you know I've earned your love.

Look at the sun sinking like a ship
Look at the sun sinking like a ship
Ain't that just like my heart babe
When you kissed my lips?


Even reading the lyrics you get a sense of the despair and - here's a word that strikes me as emininently suitable - truth to the narrator's pleas. We've all been there, right?

Whereas, by contrast, 'Early Roman Kings' uses a lot of words to say, well, who knows? Not much, if you ask me. Certainly not much I can personally relate to. I mean, what does distributing corn, destroying cities, sending people to the house of death have to do with me getting up and going to work every day and struggling to juggle my dreams against the grim reality of paying the rent and eating food to stay alive? Or to my relationship with the beautiful woman who lives with me? I'm not interested in knowing more about cruel people stamping on others - its there everytime I walk outside or switch on TV. What I want is the light and shade of the inner life, something that isn't reductively mean and selfish (in the negative sense), communion with a larger organism of consciousness that is striving towards the light - a prospect, if you like, of healing in the darkness.

Dont get me wrong - I think 'ERK' is a better blues song than he has produced in a while, and the singing and lyrics are a notch above the last couple of albums. But its pretty much a song that is about two perspectives on cruel/benevolent dictatorship welded together in the middle that ultimately doesnt really offer any hooks to hang my emotional coats on.

It's a glib metaphor I know, but like a tempest itself, could the song finally be full of sound and fury, yet signifying nothing?

Pretty much the opposite of 'Meet Me In The Morning' then.

And that, gentlefolk, is the rub, I feel.


Vulnerability is what's missing from most Dylan songs now.

I'll keep this brief. Kurt Cobain represents what counts for vulnerability for the pop and most art culture of white, educated, liberal men. But it's not a real vulnerability. It's self-loathing whose main form is irony. That is, it is not vulnerable. It is a closed thing. What is vulnerable is itself to its own attack. Love and all the terrible exposure that comes from it isn't really possible in that stance for a lot of reasons. You all know them.

The kind of vulnerability that Dylan was capable of 40 years ago is no longer a viable form. It would seem schmaltzy. Camp. Or it would until recently when there has been a reversal to a kind of sincerity in literature, etc.

Some (not all) of Dylan's songs draw on the bravado of a strain of the blues (and rap) that play on the social position of the people who invented it. But that bravado was always cut by the obvious vulnerability of the actual social position. It feels like a protest. It doesn't with Dylan.

In the kind of songs BennyBoy is addressing, Dylan is drawing on the bragging in that strain of music, but doing it in the service of his dark and cynical take on human life: perverted, debased souls, who, at best, are trying not to totally succumb to their base instincts. That's what Benny is marking. IT does not give the feeling of a protest. It feels like pessimism. Because it is.

When Dylan does address vulnerability, it can sound weird and nostalgic (When the Deal Goes Down, which is a treacly, existential love song -- is the "deal" death or the final judgment?).

Does Mississippi fit either? Maybe a little campy. It certainly lacks the pathos and vulnerability of the most heart-wrenching and simple of Dylans songs, totally straight-ahead lyrics: I Threw it All Away, You're A Big Girl Now. Both of those songs feel like pain every time.

Just some provisional thoughts anyway.

Thanks BennyBoy.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:32 GMT 
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Next time someone criticizes BennyBoy for not contributing anything, they ought to have to don an orange vest and clean up along the side of the highway for a week. Or clean up the littering posts in the threads. Keep Our Threads Beautiful!


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:32 GMT 
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goombay wrote:
don't matter some things are as they are, you gonna disrespect bob here in a bob forum im gonna have a say on it, its not popular work but someone has to do it. :D obviously im not in the running to win any popularity contests but don't bother me much. :D

^
Image


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:36 GMT 

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There is a lot of cynicism surrounding Dylan. I don't think any of it is emanating from him though. The fact that there are people so fascinated by him they spend a tremendous amount of time and effort attacking not only his work, but his ethics and character is quite a spectacle.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:45 GMT 
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Train-I-Ride wrote:
goombay wrote:
don't matter some things are as they are, you gonna disrespect bob here in a bob forum im gonna have a say on it, its not popular work but someone has to do it. :D obviously im not in the running to win any popularity contests but don't bother me much. :D

^
Image


i guess im your no 2 obsession. :D
sicko, mommy dearest. :wink:


Last edited by goombay on Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:52 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:49 GMT 
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patford wrote:
There is a lot of cynicism surrounding Dylan. I don't think any of it is emanating from him though. The fact that there are people so fascinated by him they spend a tremendous amount of time and effort attacking not only his work, but his ethics and character is quite a spectacle.


Nobody's attacking Bob Dylan the individual - rather, we're looking at Bob Dylan's recent songs and seeing similarities of aesthetic and philosophy and symbolism and construction.

And how we choose to spend our time is surely none of your business. I could equally ask you why you just spent time typing those words criticising me for spending my time criticising this song. But would the irony be lost on you, I wonder?

No - to those who feel aggrieved when they read negative comments about Bob Dylan or his work, I simply ask that you come join in with something that doesnt seek to condemn the individuals involved but rather puts your view on the art as forcefully as you can. You think its original to wheel out the whole 'Oh Bennyboy, you not got anything better to do?' routine for the x billionth time?


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:50 GMT 
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I don't think that comparing 'meet me in the morning'
and 'early roman kings' is in any way relevant. compare
'meet me in the morning' with 'this dream of you' or
'forgetful heart', or 'make you feel my love', and you're
comparing like with like. that both 'meet' and ERK are
built on blues structures is incidental. it's chalk and cheese,
and we all know it.


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PostPosted: Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:52 GMT 
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MMD wrote:
Bennyboy wrote:
You know - this morning on the way to work, I listened to 'Early Roman Kings' (I keep wanting to type Early Morning Rain for some reason! Ha.) back to back with 'Meet Me In the Morning' (there we go - its a morning thing) and aside from the singing quality differential, the thing that struck me like a lightning bolt was this:

The Dylan of 'Meet Me In The Morning' is in a dynamic subject-object relationship throughout the song. He is singing to the 'honey' he had, who he lost, who still lives in his every pore. He is supplicant to his desire for reunification, for the heat of that relationship to be rekindled. And even though this song is very simple, lyrically, he manages to say more and touch me more in one simple double line repeated verse than he does in the whole of 'Early Morning Kings'.

Meet me in the morning 56th and Wabasha
Meet me in the morning 56th and Wabasha
Honey we could be in Kansas
By time the snow begins to thaw.

They say the darkest hour is right before the dawn
They say the darkest hour is right before the dawn
But you wouldn't know it by me
Every day's been darkness since you been gone.

Little rooster crowing there must be something on his mind
Little rooster crowing there must be something on his mind
Well I feel just like that rooster
Honey ya treat me so unkind.

Well I struggled through barbed wire felt the hail fall from above
Well I struggled through barbed wire felt the hail fall from above
Well you know I even outran the hound dogs
Honey you know I've earned your love.

Look at the sun sinking like a ship
Look at the sun sinking like a ship
Ain't that just like my heart babe
When you kissed my lips?


Even reading the lyrics you get a sense of the despair and - here's a word that strikes me as emininently suitable - truth to the narrator's pleas. We've all been there, right?

Whereas, by contrast, 'Early Roman Kings' uses a lot of words to say, well, who knows? Not much, if you ask me. Certainly not much I can personally relate to. I mean, what does distributing corn, destroying cities, sending people to the house of death have to do with me getting up and going to work every day and struggling to juggle my dreams against the grim reality of paying the rent and eating food to stay alive? Or to my relationship with the beautiful woman who lives with me? I'm not interested in knowing more about cruel people stamping on others - its there everytime I walk outside or switch on TV. What I want is the light and shade of the inner life, something that isn't reductively mean and selfish (in the negative sense), communion with a larger organism of consciousness that is striving towards the light - a prospect, if you like, of healing in the darkness.

Dont get me wrong - I think 'ERK' is a better blues song than he has produced in a while, and the singing and lyrics are a notch above the last couple of albums. But its pretty much a song that is about two perspectives on cruel/benevolent dictatorship welded together in the middle that ultimately doesnt really offer any hooks to hang my emotional coats on.

It's a glib metaphor I know, but like a tempest itself, could the song finally be full of sound and fury, yet signifying nothing?

Pretty much the opposite of 'Meet Me In The Morning' then.

And that, gentlefolk, is the rub, I feel.


Vulnerability is what's missing from most Dylan songs now.

I'll keep this brief. Kurt Cobain represents what counts for vulnerability for the pop and most art culture of white, educated, liberal men. But it's not a real vulnerability. It's self-loathing whose main form is irony. That is, it is not vulnerable. It is a closed thing. What is vulnerable is itself to its own attack. Love and all the terrible exposure that comes from it isn't really possible in that stance for a lot of reasons. You all know them.

The kind of vulnerability that Dylan was capable of 40 years ago is no longer a viable form. It would seem schmaltzy. Camp. Or it would until recently when there has been a reversal to a kind of sincerity in literature, etc.

Some (not all) of Dylan's songs draw on the bravado of a strain of the blues (and rap) that play on the social position of the people who invented it. But that bravado was always cut by the obvious vulnerability of the actual social position. It feels like a protest. It doesn't with Dylan.

In the kind of songs BennyBoy is addressing, Dylan is drawing on the bragging in that strain of music, but doing it in the service of his dark and cynical take on human life: perverted, debased souls, who, at best, are trying not to totally succumb to their base instincts. That's what Benny is marking. IT does not give the feeling of a protest. It feels like pessimism. Because it is.

When Dylan does address vulnerability, it can sound weird and nostalgic (When the Deal Goes Down, which is a treacly, existential love song -- is the "deal" death or the final judgment?).

Does Mississippi fit either? Maybe a little campy. It certainly lacks the pathos and vulnerability of the most heart-wrenching and simple of Dylans songs, totally straight-ahead lyrics: I Threw it All Away, You're A Big Girl Now. Both of those songs feel like pain every time.

Just some provisional thoughts anyway.

Thanks BennyBoy.


vulnerability is over-done, trite and out of date. Hasn't anybody seen a whiney indy band lately? Dylan, as always, is a frontiersman. Plenty of vulnerability on his eighties albums though, in case anybody cares to apply their debating skills on the Summer Listening Series threads! :wink:

p.s. Nice point Gerard!

p.s.s. Just fully re-read your post too MMD; it seems that's a bit of what you are saying too. Dylan doesn't believe in protest movements either I don't think. He's not a good solution man. Never really has been. Only a good finger pointing man. And he still is one apparently, despite only having ten fingers and 'giving up the protest song.'


Last edited by Troubadour64 on Fri August 10th, 2012, 20:57 GMT, edited 2 times in total.

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