Expecting Rain

Go to main page
It is currently Tue June 18th, 2013, 07:45 GMT

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 342 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 14  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 19:56 GMT 

Joined: Tue September 28th, 2010, 14:34 GMT
Posts: 2488
jimb727 wrote:
Humans like to label things.

yeah they are strange creatures, sometimes I wish I was something else. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 19:57 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed January 9th, 2008, 14:29 GMT
Posts: 7627
How's about a woodpecker :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 19:57 GMT 

Joined: Fri July 4th, 2008, 16:47 GMT
Posts: 386
Location: London
Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Zimbiosis wrote:
Can anyone amongst the case for the defence rise...

Let's zoom out a bit, Bob or not.
Why is it a case?
And why is there a need to defend?
Defend what?
I think I'm the one that doesn't "get it", Z.


OK, it's not a matter of life and death and I'm pleased as punch if people still get so much happiness and satisfaction from Bob in concert, but for those of us - and forgive me if I assume that I'm talking on behalf of all the nay-sayers here - who are struggling to understand exactly WHAT it is that inspires such adulation and at times adulatory zeal for every show it would be illuminating to have some concrete examples.

It just becomes frustrating when there's a tidal wave of "best gig ever" responses to performances that we can see or hear ourselves courtesy of the links that filmers and tapers post here which seem to be singularly lacking in any of the qualities which they are being praised for. I'm not a musician myself (as anyone who has heard me try and play guitar to could attest to) but I am quite capable of taking on board and understanding the analysis that Al has given and to my ears and mind, he's right. If he's wrong I'd like to hear someone explain why in similar terms. It might make me think twice.

What irks is the constant hyperbole and sloppy criticism used to elevate some of these performances which frankly are really not either exciting, challenging or - dare I say it - even particularly competent anymore.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:01 GMT 

Joined: Tue September 28th, 2010, 14:34 GMT
Posts: 2488
jimb727 wrote:
How's about a woodpecker :D

I would love to be a woodpecker...when I was a little girl and I went to my grandmother's summer house by the sea Malaren , I always heard the wood peckers and the owls. My grandmother an I met an elk one day and granny told me to run because she had a calf with her, so we run away.... There was a famer nearby where we went to buy milk directly from the cows. I still think of that place as paradise. :)

Today I work in a place a bit away from town and I see and hear the woodpeckers now and then. One day I saw a hawk sit on a big stone. He was so beautiful. I see him fly over my head far up in the sky sometimes. And I think to myself what a beautiful world........


Last edited by Ontherun on Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:05 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:05 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed January 9th, 2008, 14:29 GMT
Posts: 7627
I wanna say, even though I think a musician might have a somewhat keener ear/understanding of the subtleties of a given musical performance I don't think it's a requirement at all. I think anyone, if they know a given tune fairly well, will be able to hear immediately if a pianist, or guitarist, or whatever, hits a wrong note.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:10 GMT 
Senior Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu October 26th, 2006, 03:28 GMT
Posts: 19724
Location: I'm in Bostontown in some restaurant.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.............................................................................................


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:11 GMT 

Joined: Tue September 28th, 2010, 14:34 GMT
Posts: 2488
goodnight Boston. Time for a break I take it?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:25 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed September 14th, 2011, 14:25 GMT
Posts: 7029
Location: A place where there's still somethin' going on
Perhaps you are asking for something that isn't possible to explain, nor should it be necessary. You are asking for someone to give you proof that what they enjoy is valid, when you have already decided that it is not worthy of your appreciation. You shan't be convinced.

I've never really been moved too much by technically skilled musicians. It is not that I am unlearned or that I am not able to appreciate the amount of study and practice that goes into being a technician but generally speaking, I am underwhelmed on an emotional or spiritual level. If being a musician was a prerequisite for a proper appreciation for a great musical experience that would exclude a great percentage of the audience.

Some of these so called objective critiques reek of bitterness as if they were personally betrayed by Bob.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:29 GMT 

Joined: Tue September 28th, 2010, 14:34 GMT
Posts: 2488
raging_glory wrote:
Perhaps you are asking for something that isn't possible to explain, nor should it be necessary. You are asking for someone to give you proof that what they enjoy is valid, when you have already decided that it is not worthy of your appreciation. You shan't be convinced.

I've never really been moved too much by technically skilled musicians. It is not that I am unlearned or that I am not able to appreciate the amount of study and practice that goes into being a technician but generally speaking, I am underwhelmed on an emotional or spiritual level. If being a musician was a prerequisite for a proper appreciation for a great musical experience that would exclude a great percentage of the audience.


Some of these so called objective critiques reek of bitterness as if they were personally betrayed by Bob.


Post of the week. Very very good.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:42 GMT 

Joined: Tue February 17th, 2009, 03:57 GMT
Posts: 2425
raging_glory wrote:
Perhaps you are asking for something that isn't possible to explain, nor should it be necessary. You are asking for someone to give you proof that what they enjoy is valid, when you have already decided that it is not worthy of your appreciation. You shan't be convinced.

I've never really been moved too much by technically skilled musicians. It is not that I am unlearned or that I am not able to appreciate the amount of study and practice that goes into being a technician but generally speaking, I am underwhelmed on an emotional or spiritual level. If being a musician was a prerequisite for a proper appreciation for a great musical experience that would exclude a great percentage of the audience.

Some of these so called objective critiques reek of bitterness as if they were personally betrayed by Bob.


I don't feel betrayed by Bob. At. All. I just think he ought to to devote remaining energies to something that he wants to really invest himself in (he is an Artist after all.) :P His concerts now are a gross exercise in reaping adulation, for nothing that benefits neither artist nor audience, and never will, 10, 20, or 1000 years from now.

He looks pleased with himself, in his hat and Civil War coat or whatever that is, but I ain't impressed.


Last edited by Ain't Talkin' on Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:46 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 20:45 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed January 9th, 2008, 14:29 GMT
Posts: 7627
(peeks up over the ramparts for the return salvo)

this should be good.......


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:02 GMT 

Joined: Fri July 4th, 2008, 16:47 GMT
Posts: 386
Location: London
raging_glory wrote:
Perhaps you are asking for something that isn't possible to explain, nor should it be necessary. You are asking for someone to give you proof that what they enjoy is valid, when you have already decided that it is not worthy of your appreciation. You shan't be convinced.

I've never really been moved too much by technically skilled musicians. It is not that I am unlearned or that I am not able to appreciate the amount of study and practice that goes into being a technician but generally speaking, I am underwhelmed on an emotional or spiritual level. If being a musician was a prerequisite for a proper appreciation for a great musical experience that would exclude a great percentage of the audience.

Some of these so called objective critiques reek of bitterness as if they were personally betrayed by Bob.


I haven't already decided anything, if I hear a performance tomorrow by Bob that blows my socks off I'll be the first to admit it and actually rejoice in the very fact. It's been a long time since I did and just for the record I've been listening to him through five decades now so I'd like to think I have some understanding of just what it is that makes (made?) him truly great. What does concern me is the singular lack of those qualities which has become more and more apparent over recent years and the fact that this no longer seems to matter, he can dial in the sloppiest, half-hearted performance and it's hailed as a milestone in contemporary music. That helps neither the artist nor their audience.

I have no agenda for virtuosity either, that's not what I'm asking for. Things can be heartfelt and still be bad or incompetent, just because someone "means it man" doesn't make it art or worthy of your time.

Your response is very articulate and no doubt heart felt but it's file under "you just don't get it" again.

Just to be clear, I appreciate your reply and I'm not trying to pick a fight. Maybe we just have to agree to disagree.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:05 GMT 

Joined: Sat September 17th, 2011, 02:08 GMT
Posts: 491
raging_glory wrote:
You are asking for someone to give you proof


i like what you wrote too raging glory. you can't always prove something, but it can be true anyway. sometimes you don't have to have all the answers, you don't have to know why. if you don't see it,you don't- but if you do, you might never be able to prove it


Last edited by ifitwastruetennessee on Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:06 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:05 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 11th, 2011, 06:31 GMT
Posts: 4775
Zimbiosis wrote:
What does concern me is the singular lack of those qualities which has become more and more apparent over recent years and the fact that this no longer seems to matter, he can dial in the sloppiest, half-hearted performance and it's hailed as a milestone in contemporary music.

Who's claiming that?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:09 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed January 9th, 2008, 14:29 GMT
Posts: 7627
Giada wrote:
Zimbiosis wrote:
What does concern me is the singular lack of those qualities which has become more and more apparent over recent years and the fact that this no longer seems to matter, he can dial in the sloppiest, half-hearted performance and it's hailed as a milestone in contemporary music.

Who's claiming that?


What are you kidding?? Look up and down this board!! His language may be slightly exaggerated but it's a valid observation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:13 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 11th, 2011, 06:31 GMT
Posts: 4775
The only poster who comes close to arguing that is goombay, maybe one or two others.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:15 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed September 14th, 2011, 14:25 GMT
Posts: 7029
Location: A place where there's still somethin' going on
Zimbiosis wrote:

Your response is very articulate and no doubt heart felt but it's file under "you just don't get it" again.



Why, thanks for the condescension! :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:19 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed January 9th, 2008, 14:29 GMT
Posts: 7627
Look, what I think these "debates" come down to, at least from the "anti"(I hate you all for forcing me to put it like that :lol: ) ModBob crowd is that we have a right to voice our opinion as well as anyone but that that does NOT mean that we don't think we have something of value to add to this forum and that we don't continue to enjoy and value certain aspects of Bob's career. I'm sure that some, though obviously not all of the other camp, would love to see us evaporate. But then what do you have. I've seen people make the arguement here, and I wholeheartedly agree, that a little descension is a good thing. If we were all Bob bootlickers this place would be pretty damn boring!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:25 GMT 

Joined: Fri July 4th, 2008, 16:47 GMT
Posts: 386
Location: London
raging_glory wrote:
Zimbiosis wrote:

Your response is very articulate and no doubt heart felt but it's file under "you just don't get it" again.



Why, thanks for the condescension! :wink:


You're welcome! :wink:

But seriously, I WASN'T trying to be condescending; just trying to point out that so far no one has managed to meet Al's challenge, which I still think is entirely valid, without recourse to changing it's very terms. To me that sounds like, "I can't answer that so I'll explain why your question is wrong", I just don't think his point is wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:28 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed January 9th, 2008, 14:29 GMT
Posts: 7627
Zimbiosis wrote:
raging_glory wrote:



Why, thanks for the condescension! :wink:


You're welcome! :wink:

But seriously, I WASN'T trying to be condescending; just trying to point out that so far no one has managed to meet Al's challenge, which I still think is entirely valid, without recourse to changing it's very terms. To me that sounds like, "I can't answer that so I'll explain why your question is wrong", I just don't think his point is wrong.


Besides I think he was saying that YOU'Re saying to HIM that HE just doesn't get it.

Right?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:40 GMT 

Joined: Fri July 4th, 2008, 16:47 GMT
Posts: 386
Location: London
jimb727 wrote:
Look, what I think these "debates" come down to, at least from the "anti"(I hate you all for forcing me to put it like that :lol: ) ModBob crowd is that we have a right to voice our opinion as well as anyone but that that does NOT mean that we don't think we have something of value to add to this forum and that we don't continue to enjoy and value certain aspects of Bob's career. I'm sure that some, though obviously not all of the other camp, would love to see us evaporate. But then what do you have. I've seen people make the arguement here, and I wholeheartedly agree, that a little descension is a good thing. If we were all Bob bootlickers this place would be pretty damn boring!!


Exactly, thank you; I'm here like the rest of you because I love Bob, I'll be buying the new album on the day of release too (possibly with more trepidation than some I'll admit) and I'll carry on attending and downloading shows, and buying the books and boring people senseless about him over a pint for as long as I can. Same as I always have done.

But that doesn't mean I can't criticise him if what I think he's doing has little artistic merit and when it comes to the live arena I'm increasingly of that opinion. But nor do I believe that mean's it's game over, I love some - most actually - of Modern Times (TTL which is flimsy, less so) and I'd like to think - like quite a few others here - that given the right circumstances (venues, instrumentation, arrangements, song choice and so forth) that something astonishing could still happen before a live audience. I'll be the proud owner of a happy grin if and when that comes to pass but in the meantime I'm not going to pretend that what's happening isn't a consistently lacklustre stretch of shows stretching back over the past few years.


Last edited by Zimbiosis on Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:43 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:42 GMT 

Joined: Tue September 28th, 2010, 14:34 GMT
Posts: 2488
Ehummm excuse me but I just wonder who is it that doesn't get it and get what?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 21:44 GMT 
Titanium Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed January 9th, 2008, 14:29 GMT
Posts: 7627
BOB DYLAN YOU FOOL!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Sun July 8th, 2012, 23:04 GMT 
User avatar

Joined: Sat March 11th, 2006, 19:45 GMT
Posts: 1286
Regarding the piano.
Whether or not you like modern Bob, the inclusion of the grand piano has to be applauded. Anything which shakes things up a bit, has to be seen as a positive move. Regardless of the quality of output, it still shows that Bob (bless him) is trying and not just phoning in the shows.
Personally, I'm no fan of the past ten years or so live output, but I do appreciate the consideration and effort given by Bob.
The past few years, I've referred to Bob as Uncle Bob. Everyone I know, understands when I say 'I'm off home to listen to Uncle Bob' or, 'Should we put some Uncle Bob on?'
Sad but true.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: From ModBob to GrandBob
PostPosted: Mon July 9th, 2012, 00:02 GMT 
Mercury Member
User avatar

Joined: Sat October 27th, 2007, 13:44 GMT
Posts: 11571
Location: Probably killing time in a supermarket while sig. other compares organic fruits
Sorry to interrupt.

In the line for tickets to my first Bob Dylan concert (1989) people had this exact same argument. AJ Weberman used to go through Dylan's garbage looking for clues as to why he had "betrayed" his art. Possibly the worst I've seen online was in 2003/2004 with the "wolfman" voice, now a very well-regarded time it should be noted. It's like an eternal noise in Dylan-land, incidentally a place few others have ever given a rat's ass about. Time will put it all in perspective...maybe.

I will add a few thoughts for whatever they're worth.

I find it offensive to see it argued that people shouldn't criticize Bob Dylan because it's like telling kids there isn't any Santa. Although I understand the point that it's kind of pissing in someone else's meal just for the fun of it, I also get the concept that excessive praise of something NOT good or special appears to diminish the appreciation for those things that are. The fact is that Bob Dylan needs not apologize for his performances and those performances don't require a sliding scale to be appreciated...and if they do we should be willing to talk about it.

I wish Al had chosen a different performance to turn his gaze towards, as I wasn't too thrilled with that one either. I would, however, respectfully posit that Al and others are indeed "missing it". What are they missing? Two things stand out:

Rhythmic vitality - much more applicable to a better performance, of course, but given the limitations of his range this is one of the primary areas in which Dylan is free to roam and experiment, which he certainly does. Is he sometimes either lazy or self-indulgent or both in this regard? Yes, no question, but his idiosyncrasies are a big part of what makes him such an interesting performer to watch, for better or worse. They can seem to be almost randomly simple or deviously complex and sophisticated distillations of an artistic intelligence quite unlike any other. Much of Dylan's art has this same quality, and what in one person's eyes is gibberish can inspire others to write books. It's a strange world, and Dylan seems to have been very, very lucky in his career if it was all as accidental as it seemed. The sheer and sometimes twisted joy Dylan seems to take in his phrasing may jar you right out of any area where enjoyment is possible, but accept that others find it exhilarating, at least on a good night. Dylan remains the sound of surprise.


"The comparison fallacy" - Dylan's songs are unbelievably rich, just piles and piles of words and images and feelings. There is so much room to recreate them and he does so often, if not every night out of the gate. A phase sparkles, a new layer of emotion is revealed, a single syllable can take center-stage and steal the damn show, shooting like a cannon and hovering above the crowd and listener turning their heads, and a song is made new. That doesn't mean it's the best ever...and listening to these things and enjoying them is no cause for belittlement. You can buy the better regarded albums and maybe see a concert or two in your lifetime and call yourself a Bob Dylan fan, there's no need to take it to the level of bootlegs and following tours and so on. There are just some people who simply enjoy the improvisation enough to put in the time. Other artists have these types of fans (the Grateful Dead are legendary for it, and jazz figures had bootlegs on them probably from wax cylinder days onward), and to those who get pleasure from it charges that they don't know music or don't understand what makes the artist in question valuable are bound to be offensive.

Having a conversation about these things is very difficult.

Someone mentioned that Dylan is a completely unique artist and there is no precedence for appreciating him and I do believe there is value in exploring this. He certainly asks more of his audience in a live setting than any performer EVER has, at least in the pop end of the music spectrum, yet he continues to thrive by resonating with enough people to pull it off. This resonating seems unrelated to standard definitions of good or bad musicality, and happens instinctively far from the reaches of conscious thought (which has plenty to do with those lyrics) so analyzing it is a tricky business to say the least and unfortunately it is the very heart of our disagreement. It's a hopeless task, and will continue long after he's dead.


Carry on, though :D


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 342 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 14  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 20yearsofschooling, goodnitesteve, Valdes


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group