Expecting Rain

got it, and i completely support your position not to pigeonhole his career accomplishments into what he did or set out to do in the early years of the 60s. if that's the larger point you are making it is quite valid.

in fairness, even we don't read our own newspapers anymore. they are crap and offer as much of as a reflection of real events as Marvel Comics.

Fair enough. Let's leave it at that. As I have seen before, the new generation, were't around in the 60's, and I think I expect too much of them, having suffered through it myself. Please forgive me if I have been too critical.

I was actually talking about Sinatra, but, yes, I think it applies to Bob, too. And I'm not trying to cheapen the fact that his work was very important to the social movements of the 60s. He was sort of their Bible.

I realized that after posting, so sorry for misquoting you. I don't think it cheapens Bob's overall artistic achievements to say that he did much beyond protesting the social issues of his youth.

Cool. Now an updated special Life magazine can be re-issued to add another phrase in the two pages that described Dylan's last few career decades.

I've posted here that Dylan was an inspiration to many people in his work and quoted Vaclav Havel who has said that when he was one of the leaders of the Czech resistance that Dylan's work and it's engagement in issues were a constant source of inspiration during the terrible days when the members of the Czech resistance were underground and feared arrest. Dylan's political influence is international and is not just limited to the impact his work had in the 60s.


As for when he last went on a protest march - when you have the kind of power, money, media attention and respect that Dylan commands, he has lots of ways to exercise influence besides showing up in public to protest anything. Among the people we know that Dylan (according to statements by the man himself) has been personal friends with are former Vice-President Al Gore and the late Democratic Senator from Minnesota Paul Wellstone. Having that kind of access is a faster and more effective path to influence than going on a protest march. People underestimate how "inside the system" Bob Dylan has been for years and nothing about being friends with or socializing with or accepting an award from members of our government "cheapens" anything about Dylan. Notice Dylan never showed up to play for or associated with Reagan or the Bushes. He did perform for Bill Clinton and for Barack Obama. It's not like he's some lackey who doesn't exercise any choices or discrimination in regard to who he wants to meet, talk to and be photographed with.


I believe there's a misperception here about who Bob Dylan is and myths about his early work being "marketing" - as if he spent years creating and performing music he didn't really care about except as a careerist (as Dylan himself once said "as if that's my foolish mission") - and that Dylan now lives as some radical hippie purist who hates and is cheapened by any contact with the "establishment." Lots of successful artists become part of, or aligned with, parts of the "establishment" without being "cheapened" or accused of selling out because they are friends with or socialize with various successful people in lots of different fields. Nothing about being friends with Gore or Wellstone "cheapens" Bob Dylan. Very successful people tend to know very successful people in other fields besides their own and to believe that Dylan doesn't have powerful friends, or at least "acquaintances", in the clergy, the financial industry (some of whom he obviously trusts with his money.....), law, academia and other fields other than arts and entertainment is to be naive about the way the world works and also to assume that Dylan hasn't spent all of these decades with tremendous success and access being at least a little bit curious about meeting and spending time with some of the more successful and influential people in the world.


The guy's been one of the most successful and famous people in the world for nearly 50 years. To assume that his only social acquaintances are musicians and maybe some actors and couldn't possibly include people in other fields is incredibly naive and seriously underestimates Dylan's brilliance and the fact that throughout his life he's shown an interest in lots of different things outside of his interest in music. About half of his success can be attributed to his huge curiosity about the world. Assume he's been out there living large in various aspects of it and with all kinds of people that we know nothing about for decades. I'd be very disappointed in him if he'd had all those opportunities and didn't take advantage of them.



You're not "cheapened" by knowing anybody. You're only "cheapened" if you let yourself be influenced by them to be inauthentic to yourself. I really don't think anything about spending time with Barack Obama poses any kind of existential threat to Dylan's sense of himself. The same applies to Obama, the most powerful person in the world, who isn't some star-struck teenager when it comes to being around people like Bob Dylan. If they get along and they actually like each other, that's great. We're talking about two relatively shy and introverted people here. If they don't much like each other, you still will never see either of these men ever show anything but respect and admiration for the other. Both of them are serious students of history and each appreciates the important part the other person has played in the big narrative of this country they both love so much.


If you haven't figured out yet that Bob Dylan loves this country, and is serious about and proud of the part he has played in it's history, you really haven't been paying attention.

Excellent. Very well said Mr. Lator.

I particularly like your closing line -

"If you haven't figured out yet that Bob Dylan loves this country, and is serious about and proud of the part he has played in it's history, you really haven't been paying attention."

Also, and much more importantly, your pointing out how he inspired historic people like Vaclav Havel forever lays to rest claims by blind lightweights like Johanna Parker that Bob Dylan didn't really believe in the things he wrote - it was just a fad etc., and was of little consequence.

Trev thinks that Dylan would have had quite a complicated and often changing relationship with protest, America, the sixties, public acclaim and social criticism in the course of his fifty year career - and that that can be misrepresented with stark statements/presumptions about his attitudes, and creations of a neat narrative arc. There can be a danger that we hold Dylan ransom to views expressed years ago.

Huh?

"Trev thinks that Dylan would have had quite a complicated"

"Would have had"? He did, or he might have, or would have? What a hodgepodge of gobblygook nonsense.

"There can be a danger that we hold Dylan ransom to views expressed years ago."

Ooh, I'm gittin' real scared now. Danger? Ransom? You mean the songs HE STILL SINGS?

Human rights do not change with the mood of the times, and his expression of them will be sung forever. Confused puppies like yourself are left by the wayside. Yes, I'm sure Bob really regrets being against war, segregation, human cruelty - just like you Trev! What a genius!!

As usual, therev nails it again. Everything about your post is spot on.

psst....chrome....therev's a Ms.

Kindly get off your high horse, chrome. I don't know what's up with this personal crusade against me, just because I don't happen to share your version of truth and reality. I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you are, and as everyone else is. My nationality and age have nothing to do with this. As, btw, inspiration and honesty have little to do with each other. I'm not saying Bob did this, but you can totally make up something and still inspire people. Artists and people in the entertainment business do it all the time.

wait, you think he participated in the civil rights movement for $$/fame?

^ Agreed - please let's not make this argument personal. We've all got opinions. It would be a pretty boring site if we always agreed.

Sorry, Giada. I stepped on your post...

Johanna, I would NEVER let my horse smoke pot(he might get too into it and take it all!) But I do love western movies.

OK, I will not bring this up again. It's just that you went out of your way quoting old girlfriends etc, to build your case. And you act like such an authority. And as I see this issue as the central foundation of his greatness, your thinking really bothered me. But again, I promise not to mention you again as the Poster Girl for Flawed Dylan Thoughts. And I think your age definitely has something to do with it - you weren't there. The 60's were no picinic. But again - over.

I think / said he wanted to become successful / famous as a singer, songwriter and musician. Had he been a few years older, I think he would have tried to make it as a rock'n'roller. As it was, in his own time and chosen place, there was a void to be filled by an articulate, socially concious singer/songwriter, and he happened to be talented and good with words. I also said he didn't stick to any movement for a very long time. People like Baez and (sorry, Joan) Weberman tried to keep him in place and he would defy their expectations.

And the tears on my cheeks are from laughter.

Well put, rev. I've no doubt he'll be there to graciously accept the honor. 'Freedom' has been one the main themes of his entire career--it's nice to see him recognized for guiding the collective consciousness toward it.

First off I think he has been blowing everyone expectations out of the water for years.... on every level.... and I don't think that especially concerns him one way or another.... if other people's expectations were his main concern he would not have gone electric and for sure would never have had his gospel period. He has only been concerned about his own expectations..... Next, to for a minute think that he thought the way to world fame and success during the 60's was thru folk music you are just not thinking that thru.... just ask Pete Seger... Phil Ochs .... Dave Van Ronk .... if anything it made you political..... which was not especially a plus in the late 50's and early part of the 60's.... , just look up info on the problems that Pete Seger had......There for sure was not any money in it..... folk albums got no where near the sale or radio air play that pop music was getting then.... IMHO he wrote those songs for the same reason that he wrote the great rock songs, the gospel songs and the later blues songs..... because those were all parts of him and those were the parts of him that came to the surface at those times..... He is a man of many parts ..... again I think that if anywhere you need to look to his music for the real clues to the man. The fact that he is still playing songs from the earliest part of his career says that all the parts are still there......

You crazy Horse! First of all, "would have had" is correct, and shouldn't be that difficult to understand. .

The "views expressed" refers to interviews as much as songs - and I mean interviews where he denies his protest roots as well. I'm not saying that Dylan has nothing to with the protest movement - I'm saying it's a complicated relationship. I'd take a position on the matter somewhere between you and Johanna.
And even an issue such as war can be complicated - see Dylan's comments about the song Masters Of War, where he denies he was ever protesting against war itself.
Now take a deep breath. Peace!

That's good. And you're exactly right. Being a protest singer in the 1960's was not mainstream at all - it was not a prescribed route to success. Bob Dylan, with his immense gifts, changed that perception. That's why people who weren't there still don't get it.

Joanie made it big before him.

Trev, you tryin' to make me look stupid? I resemble that!

Dylan's comments regarding the meanings of his songs really don't carry much weight - he is the master of denial.
Accepting the award says something else.

But anyway - you do get an A+ for creativity. And peace to you too bro! Gotta run, my horse needs another joint!

I remember van Ronk saying that Bob was being misleading when he claimed to have gone to NY to "make it" because there was no folk scene to speak of when he arrived. He's really the one who the 60s folk scene iconic.