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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 17:05 GMT 
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monklover wrote:

That's patronizing, isn't it? Real leftist stuff. You could say their art is interesting, their music is great, their devotion is deep, their impact on American culture is long and enduring. But it's about food!


Liking Mexican food is "Real leftist stuff"?? You're joking, right? Lemme clue you in, but it may go right over you - it's real "stoner" stuff.


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 17:06 GMT 
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monklover wrote:
I'll admit I consider the Englishness of English artists to be accidental if they're good enough for me to appreciate.


I'm not sure I know what you mean by 'accidental' Englishness? I can't think of many English artists of note whose Englishness wasn't, at least to a degree, part of their artistry: they would be a pretty poor artist if that wasn't the case, surely?


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 17:12 GMT 
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littlemaggie wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
The who thing is pretty silly really, since Dylan has appreciative fans in Europe, North America and beyond. Must we really create yet another dividing line where really there is non?


No, I don't think it's silly at all. Are you suggesting all his appreciative fans around the world appreciate Dylan in exactly the same way?

Obviously, the initial question "Do Europeans Appreciate Bob Dylan More Than Americans?" is silly. But discussion of the different ways fans from different nations appreciate Dylan is far from silly. There is no 'dividing line' being created, as you suggest - just a discussion of the nuances of dissimilarity in those who at first glance would appear to have similar taste.


If you like to overcomplicate things, sure, that's your own choice. Wake me up when you've worked out the 'nuances.'


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 17:35 GMT 

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maybe the Brits were particularly enjoying Dylan because he was reviving their ballad tradition, kind of like what British artists were doing for our blues singers


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 18:25 GMT 
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^Two words:
Bert Lloyd


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PostPosted: Tue November 29th, 2016, 21:01 GMT 
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littlemaggie wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
The who thing is pretty silly really, since Dylan has appreciative fans in Europe, North America and beyond. Must we really create yet another dividing line where really there is non?


No, I don't think it's silly at all. Are you suggesting all his appreciative fans around the world appreciate Dylan in exactly the same way?



Bob is a gravitational force attracting a gamut of characters from most walks of life.
He remains true to himself in the face of tremendous societal pressure, fame & fortune.
One of the common threads across the entire sea of humanity, rich or poor, different or normal, educated or not, all races & genders, is most folks struggle with being true to themselves.
It is a rare & admired quality which seems almost unattainable.
Saying it is one thing. Living it is another.

Go Bobby Go.

People relate to Bob relative to their life experiences or perhaps even the ones they want.
Everyone has a different take. That's the beauty of it.

Personally, I think the Euros appreciate him more.


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PostPosted: Sat December 3rd, 2016, 20:24 GMT 
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Impossible. Europeans only like it if they can decimate and assimilate a culture, or some part of it, then claim it belongs to them. Get your grubby paws off our Bob, he's not that into you. :D


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PostPosted: Sun December 4th, 2016, 01:16 GMT 
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Sweetheart68 wrote:
Europeans only like it if they can decimate and assimilate a culture, or some part of it, then claim it belongs to them.

Yikes. Guessing that was supposed to be some kind of warped joke?
Or perhaps just drinking a bit too much of the US Presidential-elect Kool-aid?


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PostPosted: Mon December 5th, 2016, 21:34 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Sweetheart68 wrote:
Europeans only like it if they can decimate and assimilate a culture, or some part of it, then claim it belongs to them.

Yikes. Guessing that was supposed to be some kind of warped joke?
Or perhaps just drinking a bit too much of the US Presidential-elect Kool-aid?


Maybe I'm Native American. Or Mayan. Or Aztec. Or Indian. Or South African. Or Irish. Or the great grandchild of slaves. No, I wasn't x joking. And stop acting like Europe isn't hugely xenophobic, you treat your religious minorities like crap.


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PostPosted: Mon December 5th, 2016, 22:05 GMT 
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So are us Irish good Europeans or bad Europeans? Can we still listen to Bob? :?


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PostPosted: Mon December 5th, 2016, 22:46 GMT 

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gibsona07 wrote:
So are us Irish good Europeans or bad Europeans? Can we still listen to Bob? :?


Good question. I´m not sure any longer. Last time I looked at the map """"Europe"""" consists of many countries.
You´re Irish, all galore, I´m Swedish, frozen to the bone, and who the hell can tell how we Europeans (or the Americans )""appreciate"" Bob Dylan? I´m totally lost. But I know who to ask, she´s here on ER, she knows all...I´ll get back to you.


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PostPosted: Mon December 5th, 2016, 22:51 GMT 
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gibsona07 wrote:
So are us Irish good Europeans or bad Europeans? Can we still listen to Bob? :?



If you're Irish you can do anything you want. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue December 6th, 2016, 00:01 GMT 
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Scots-Irish, which is basically the least sexiest Irish. We're the ones who march about with flutes, wear funny aprons and hate catholics. :(


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PostPosted: Tue December 6th, 2016, 04:26 GMT 
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I (American) asked my wife (British, with little love for Dylan beyond tolerating my listening to him) this question. We both agreed it was a pretty foolish question, especially when you take into consideration his waning* popularity. Frankly, I'm happy that anyone appreciates Bob's music without drawing any dividing lines.

*certainly arguable


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PostPosted: Tue December 6th, 2016, 14:36 GMT 
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Demagog wrote:
I (American) asked my wife (British, with little love for Dylan beyond tolerating my listening to him) this question. We both agreed it was a pretty foolish question, especially when you take into consideration his waning* popularity. Frankly, I'm happy that anyone appreciates Bob's music without drawing any dividing lines.

*certainly arguable


Waning? Then why is the price of his memorabilia, lyric sheets etc., skyrocketing? Certainly, his deteriorating voice etc., is not a big draw, but I would say general interest in him, especially after the Nobel, is as strong as ever, or even stronger. The stunned literary crowd represents a whole new growth market.


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PostPosted: Tue December 6th, 2016, 14:49 GMT 

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chrome horse wrote:
Demagog wrote:
I (American) asked my wife (British, with little love for Dylan beyond tolerating my listening to him) this question. We both agreed it was a pretty foolish question, especially when you take into consideration his waning* popularity. Frankly, I'm happy that anyone appreciates Bob's music without drawing any dividing lines.

*certainly arguable


Waning? Then why is the price of his memorabilia, lyric sheets etc., skyrocketing? Certainly, his deteriorating voice etc., is not a big draw, but I would say general interest in him, especially after the Nobel, is as strong as ever, or even stronger. The stunned literary crowd represents a whole new growth market.


And now the question is why doesn't he exploit his notoriety? Imagine a record that corrects him with Auto Tune and a tour with phalanxes of dancers. Something vaguely like 1978, only 2016 style.


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PostPosted: Tue December 6th, 2016, 15:27 GMT 
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monklover wrote:

And now the question is why doesn't he exploit his notoriety? Imagine a record that corrects him with Auto Tune and a tour with phalanxes of dancers. Something vaguely like 1978, only 2016 style.


He's never done that. He doesn't hit the talk show circuit, and really limits his self promotion to a couple of interviews when a new record is released. He's a public recluse, remember?

In fact, he's always done just the opposite - at the the peak of folk, he went electric. At the peak of rock, he went Christian. Then he disappeared in a haze of.....and was brought back to life by the Dead. Then he came back with the NET and then morphed into Frank Sinatra. He clearly could care less what the public thinks he should do - and that is just one of many aspects of his greatness.


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PostPosted: Tue December 6th, 2016, 16:52 GMT 
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Demagog wrote:
especially when you take into consideration his waning* popularity.


Again, speak for yourself. Here's a quote from Al Gore in part of a piece in Rolling Stone about how much of an influence Bob Dylan has had on his own life -

"Dylan's music is now more relevant than ever. Musicians are digging deep right now. I would be shocked if last month's election didn't open up a new wave of meaningful and powerful songs that ring the alarm and mobilize people and crystallize what the U.S. and humanity as a whole needs to do right now.
Some people whose work I also respect have grumbled about Dylan receiving the Nobel. But to me it's pretty simple: His writing has had as much impact as the writing of any other man or woman on the planet. Case closed."



The whole articled, titled " Al Gore: How Bob Dylan Shaped My Political Consciousness"



http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/al-gore-how-bob-dylan-shaped-my-political-consciousness-w453901?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=daily&utm_campaign=120616_11


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PostPosted: Tue December 6th, 2016, 17:26 GMT 
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chrome horse wrote:
Demagog wrote:
I (American) asked my wife (British, with little love for Dylan beyond tolerating my listening to him) this question. We both agreed it was a pretty foolish question, especially when you take into consideration his waning* popularity. Frankly, I'm happy that anyone appreciates Bob's music without drawing any dividing lines.

*certainly arguable


Waning? Then why is the price of his memorabilia, lyric sheets etc., skyrocketing? Certainly, his deteriorating voice etc., is not a big draw, but I would say general interest in him, especially after the Nobel, is as strong as ever, or even stronger. The stunned literary crowd represents a whole new growth market.


I mean there's a reason I put arguable. I'm in the 20-30 age bracket, so obviously Dylan has longevity and lasting power and his current popularity is certainly higher than the lows of the 80s, but he hasn't exactly hit the highs he used to, there seems to be more interest in 60's Bob than current Bob. In no way did I mean waning as nosediving, just a gradual slow decline in popularity. There were a lot of people who were put off by his 2000's voice and there were certainly a few who have had little interest in his Sinatra covers (which I loved). And while I agree there's been renewed interest, I don't think that necessarily equates to popularity.

I imagine the reason his memorabilia is selling so well is because much of it is nearly 50 years old and (as much as I hate to say it) because Bobby's not getting any younger, ya know?

But perhaps I'm dead wrong, it's just what I've sensed. His star certainly still shines bright despite having dimmed at times.


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PostPosted: Tue December 6th, 2016, 18:51 GMT 
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Demagog wrote:


I mean there's a reason I put arguable. I'm in the 20-30 age bracket, so obviously Dylan has longevity and lasting power and his current popularity is certainly higher than the lows of the 80s, but he hasn't exactly hit the highs he used to, there seems to be more interest in 60's Bob than current Bob. In no way did I mean waning as nosediving, just a gradual slow decline in popularity. There were a lot of people who were put off by his 2000's voice and there were certainly a few who have had little interest in his Sinatra covers (which I loved). And while I agree there's been renewed interest, I don't think that necessarily equates to popularity.

I imagine the reason his memorabilia is selling so well is because much of it is nearly 50 years old and (as much as I hate to say it) because Bobby's not getting any younger, ya know?

But perhaps I'm dead wrong, it's just what I've sensed. His star certainly still shines bright despite having dimmed at times.


You make some great points, for sure. The younger generation, yes, does not have the same appreciation for an old fogie like Bob, and that is understandable. And as you correctly point out, most people gravitate towards the 60's material, when he peaked and was operating in top form - vocally and lyrically.

But...."I imagine the reason his memorabilia is selling so well is because much of it is nearly 50 years old", is way off. I have some 50 year old writings of my own that I couldn't sell for 50 cents - people don't get it!

It's drawing huge prices because of it's historic and worldwide importance, which people understand.


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PostPosted: Wed December 7th, 2016, 18:47 GMT 
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gibsona07 wrote:
Scots-Irish, which is basically the least sexiest Irish. We're the ones who march about with flutes, wear funny aprons and hate catholics. :(


Now you're just trying to turn me on. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue December 13th, 2016, 12:36 GMT 
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Quote:
Do Europeans Appreciate Bob Dylan More Than Americans?


If based on the swiftness & fury of ticket sales, then the answer is YES.

For instance:
Bob barely Sold Out a few venues on his 2,000-seat US tour this past Fall.
In comparison, the Euro shows seem to be "selling out" immediately over the past couple of days.

(Of course, this could be an illusion, rigged to create a sense of urgency to ensure more sales, which is the norm)

Either that, or maybe the Euro ticket touts appreciate Bob more than the American ones. Ha!


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PostPosted: Tue December 13th, 2016, 14:27 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Quote:
Do Europeans Appreciate Bob Dylan More Than Americans?


If based on the swiftness & fury of ticket sales, then the answer is YES.

For instance:
Bob barely Sold Out a few venues on his 2,000-seat US tour this past Fall.
In comparison, the Euro shows seem to be "selling out" immediately over the past couple of days.

(Of course, this could be an illusion, rigged to create a sense of urgency to ensure more sales, which is the norm)

Either that, or maybe the Euro ticket touts appreciate Bob more than the American ones. Ha!


Great point Mr. Foot.

However, the actual proof that Europeans do in fact have a far deeper appreciation of Bob Dylan came in the form of the Nobel
committee's statement of why they gave Bob the award. It is far more inciteful than anything I've ever seen on this side of the pond, and displays a very deep grasp of his far reaching, world changing accomplishments -


Read the Nobel committee's award presentation speech for Dylan below:


"What brings about the great shifts in the world of literature? Often it is when someone seizes upon a simple, overlooked form, discounted as art in the higher sense, and makes it mutate. Thus, at one point, emerged the modern novel from anecdote and letter, thus arose drama in a new age from high jinx on planks placed on barrels in a marketplace, thus songs in the vernacular dethroned learned Latin poetry, thus too did La Fontaine take animal fables and Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales from the nursery to Parnassian heights. Each time this occurs, our idea of literature changes.

In itself, it ought not to be a sensation that a singer/songwriter now stands recipient of the literary Nobel Prize. In a distant past, all poetry was sung or tunefully recited, poets were rhapsodes, bards, troubadours; 'lyrics' comes from 'lyre'. But what Bob Dylan did was not to return to the Greeks or the Provençals. Instead, he dedicated himself body and soul to 20th century American popular music, the kind played on radio stations and gramophone records for ordinary people, white and black: protest songs, country, blues, early rock, gospel, mainstream music. He listened day and night, testing the stuff on his instruments, trying to learn. But when he started to write similar songs, they came out differently. In his hands, the material changed. From what he discovered in heirloom and scrap, in banal rhyme and quick wit, in curses and pious prayers, sweet nothings and crude jokes, he panned poetry gold, whether on purpose or by accident is irrelevant; all creativity begins in imitation.
Even after fifty years of uninterrupted exposure, we are yet to absorb music's equivalent of the fable's Flying Dutchman. He makes good rhymes, said a critic, explaining greatness. And it is true. His rhyming is an alchemical substance that dissolves contexts to create new ones, scarcely containable by the human brain. It was a shock. With the public expecting poppy folk songs, there stood a young man with a guitar, fusing the languages of the street and the bible into a compound that would have made the end of the world seem a superfluous replay. At the same time, he sang of love with a power of conviction everyone wants to own. All of a sudden, much of the bookish poetry in our world felt aenemic, and the routine song lyrics his colleagues continued to write were like old-fashioned gunpowder following the invention of dynamite. Soon, people stopped comparing him to Woody Guthrie and Hank Williams and turned instead to Blake, Rimbaud, Whitman, Shakespeare.

In the most unlikely setting of all - the commercial gramophone record - he gave back to the language of poetry its elevated style, lost since the Romantics. Not to sing of eternities, but to speak of what was happening around us. As if the oracle of Delphi were reading the evening news.

Recognizing that revolution by awarding Bob Dylan the Nobel Prize was a decision that seemed daring only beforehand and already seems obvious. But does he get the prize for upsetting the system of literature? Not really. There is a simpler explanation, one that we share with all those who stand with beating hearts in front of the stage at one of the venues on his never-ending tour, waiting for that magical voice. Chamfort made the observation that when a master such as La Fontaine appears, the hierarchy of genres - the estimation of what is great and small, high and low in literature - is nullified. “What matter the rank of a work when its beauty is of the highest rank?" he wrote. That is the straight answer to the question of how Bob Dylan belongs in literature: as the beauty of his songs is of the highest rank.
By means of his oeuvre, Bob Dylan has changed our idea of what poetry can be and how it can work. He is a singer worthy of a place beside the Greeks' ἀοιδόι, beside Ovid, beside the Romantic visionaries, beside the kings and queens of the Blues, beside the forgotten masters of brilliant standards. If people in the literary world groan, one must remind them that the gods don't write, they dance and they sing. The good wishes of the Swedish Academy follow Mr. Dylan on his way to coming bandstands."


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PostPosted: Wed December 14th, 2016, 03:25 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Either that, or maybe the Euro ticket touts appreciate Bob more than the American ones. Ha!


Looks like the Euro ticket tout joke could be, unfortunately, true.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89529


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PostPosted: Thu December 15th, 2016, 00:27 GMT 
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Bob won several Grammys, an Oscar, a Pulitzer, Kennedy Center honor, was inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of fame and the Presidential Award of Freedom long before Sweden got off it's ass. Sweden doesn't have shite on Gregory Peck.


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