Expecting Rain
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Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?
http://www.expectingrain.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=64133
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Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 18:20 GMT ]
Post subject:  Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Yes, I believe it is.

(And "Mississippi" predates it.)


Warning: Anyone suggesting "Nettie Moore" or "Ain't Talking" will be thoroughly ridiculed! :)

Author:  Tragos114 [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 18:42 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

No.End of this thread.

Author:  Bluish [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 18:43 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

The answer is Cross the Green Mountain, you silly old man.

Author:  The Mighty Monkey Of Mim [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 18:44 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

No. Even if you believe there is not a single "truly great" song on "Love And Theft", Modern Times, or Together Through Life--and let me say right now, that's thoroughly ridiculous--there's still 'CROSS THE GREEN MOUNTAIN.

Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 18:46 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Bluish wrote:
The answer is Cross the Green Mountain, you silly old man.



That's a joke, isn't it?

I mean, it's good, but "truly great??"

Hardly.


You can't even hum it!

Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 18:48 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Tragos114 wrote:
No.End of this thread.



You contribution has been noted.

As has your impressive in-depth knowledge of all things Dylan.

Thanks. :)

Author:  The Mighty Monkey Of Mim [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:00 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Why is THINGS a fundamentally "greater" song than, say, HIGH WATER or NETTIE MOORE or THIS DREAM OF YOU?

Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:24 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

The Mighty Monkey Of Mim wrote:
Why is THINGS a fundamentally "greater" song than, say, HIGH WATER or NETTIE MOORE or THIS DREAM OF YOU?



Good question!

First, can I ask...are you a musician? It doesn't matter either way, but it could help.

For starters, from a strictly musical perspective, I don't think any of the songs you mentioned can compare. Unlike High Water and Nettie, THC (funny, I never noticed that before) has more than one part (or an "A" section, if you will)--although, I'd admit, High Water has a pretty cool tag. Moreover, the change from the VI to the IV in THC is nothing short of brilliant, IMHO. (That's the change to "Standing on the gallows...). To be sure, I don't think it's necessary for a great song to have more than one part. "Positively Fourth Street," for example, doesn't. But it helps.

THC also has a MUCH stronger melody line than any of the others you've mentioned. I don't think you can argue against that. And it's a very valid point--A truly great song has to have a memorable melody.

Then, there are the lyrics. There's not a single clinker in THC; unlike the other songs you've mentioned.

You can argue that all of Dylan's lyrics are works of art, and there's a certain truth there. But some sets of lyrics are better than others, and THC is one of them.


Adding it ALL up = his last TRULY great song.


Thinking about this...I was thinking that "Red River Shore" may be the only real competition to THC, but I think it falls just short of the mark of being as good.

Author:  ntrain [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:25 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Or Forgetful Heart?

Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:27 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

ntrain wrote:
Or Forgetful Heart?



Very good, but not great.

Listen to them side by side and let me know.

Author:  sshaham [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:39 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

I do not get this post intention. What is your point? Demeaning Dylan recent creativity?
Dylan "recent" albums – Love & theft, Modern times , and Together through life , are superb and surely unparalleled among 60 years old songwriters.
Anyway, I think that : Working man's blues , High water, CTGM, When the deal goes down, Ain't talking , and It's all good, are not inferior to THC.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:41 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

It won't be over till it's over. Just sayin'. He might still have greatness in him.

Author:  slewan [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:43 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Things Have Changed is a good song, even a very good song. Still I think it's somehow overrated. Lyrics-wise Cross The Green Mountain is much better.

Beyond Here Lies Nothing is a pretty strong song, too (at least the way it was performed in fall 2009)

Author:  P.Jekk [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:44 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Cross The Green Mountain, yes.

Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:44 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Johanna Parker wrote:
It won't be over till it's over. Just sayin'. He might still have greatness in him.



He might.

He has surprised me in the past, but, at his age, I'm beginning to suspect he might not again.


Care to offer an opinion as to the accuracy of my OP?

Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:46 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

slewan wrote:
Things Have Changed is a good song, even a very good song. Still I think it's somehow overrated. Lyrics-wise Cross The Green Mountain is much better.



How is it overrated?

Dylan apparently doesn't think so. (When was the last time he performed CTGM?)


And, when looked at in its totality, it is not.

Author:  Harry Truman [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:49 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Nope. I have 8,000 posts and am therefore, more credible. I play assorted instruments, so there's that too.

Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:50 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Harry Truman wrote:
Nope. I have 8,000 posts and am therefore, more credible. I play assorted instruments, so there's that too.



How impressive!

You merely have more time on your hands and less living to do.

How many votes do you get in the general election?

Author:  Tragos114 [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:52 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

mrdeejay wrote:
Tragos114 wrote:
No.End of this thread.



You contribution has been noted.

As has your impressive in-depth knowledge of all things Dylan.

Thanks. :)


You're welcome.You're not so bad yourself. :wink:

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 19:57 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

mrdeejay wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
It won't be over till it's over. Just sayin'. He might still have greatness in him.



He might.

He has surprised me in the past, but, at his age, I'm beginning to suspect he might not again.


Care to offer an opinion as to the accuracy of my OP?


I think High Water is on the same level.

Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:00 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Johanna Parker wrote:
I think High Water is on the same level.



Lyrically, it's the closest of the songs mentioned so far, I'll give you that.

But as a "song," I think THC is still better.

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:04 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

mrdeejay wrote:
Johanna Parker wrote:
I think High Water is on the same level.



Lyrically, it's the closest of the songs mentioned so far, I'll give you that.

But as a "song," I think THC is still better.


Depends if you're talking studio recording or live performance, though. Though both a exceptionally strong these days, live.

Author:  Tragos114 [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:07 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Just to mention a few :

I Feel a Change Coming On
This Dream of You
Forgetful Heart
Cross The Green Mountain
Ain't Talkin'
Thunder on the Mountain
Workingman’s Blues # 2
When the Deal Goes Down
Highwater (For Charlie Patton)
Tweedle Dee And Tweedle Dum
Mississippi
Summer Days
e.t.c

Actually, in my opinion, almost all songs since TTM are great and underrated.It makes me nervous when people imply that Bob's no longer capable of writing great songs.

EDIT to add: not that i don't love Things Have Changed

Author:  Johanna Parker [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:12 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

The TTL songs were co-written, though.

Author:  mrdeejay [ Sat October 1st, 2011, 20:15 GMT ]
Post subject:  Re: Is "Things Have Changed" Bob's Last Truly Great Song?

Tragos114 wrote:
Just to mention a few :

I Feel a Change Coming On
This Dream of You
Forgetful Heart
Cross The Green Mountain
Ain't Talkin'
Thunder on the Mountain
Workingman’s Blues # 2
When the Deal Goes Down
Highwater (For Charlie Patton)
Tweedle Dee And Tweedle Dum
Mississippi
Summer Days
e.t.c

Actually, in my opinion, almost all songs since TTM are great and underrated.It makes me nervous when people imply that Bob's no longer capable of writing great songs.

EDIT to add: not that i don't love Things Have Changed



I think you've misread my intention.

I'm really not here to slam Dylan's latest output.

He's written some very good songs in the last few years (though I would argue TTL is better than MT). My point is GREAT songs. Not many of those for most artists, and Dylan has had more than anyone IMHO.

I'm really trying to be objective here, and so far no one has made a persuasive counter-argument, though Johanna has come the closest.

And, btw, I was referring strictly to studio recordings.

(There are too many variables in a live performance.)

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