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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:42 GMT 

Joined: Sun November 7th, 2004, 18:31 GMT
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Sluggy wrote:
Bob's the sole credit on Subterranean Homesick Blues as well. I wonder if Chuck Berry is amused.

Cheers, SLuggy

-edit - we joined up within 6 days of each other. We're like elder statesmen here.



I think that you can argue that Sub Homesick Blues varies enough from the basic structure of the Berry song to warrant it being its own song. But your point is actually very valid. A lot of Dylan's early stuff is lifted from a great many sources musically as well. That doesn't mean that he doesn't write great songs, but when compared to as musical a talent as say, George Gershwin, his melody skills are lacking.

Edit: Which is not to say that Dylan hasn't written some beautiful melodies, but my point is just that Dylan's songs don't lend themselves very well to being played purely as instrumentals in the way that all of the great songs of the jazz era do.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:55 GMT 

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Edit: Which is not to say that Dylan hasn't written some beautiful melodies, but my point is just that Dylan's songs don't lend themselves very well to being played purely as instrumentals in the way that all of the great songs of the jazz era do.

I dunno; have you heard New Morning from Stuttgart 91? :lol:

You may have a point here.

Cheers, SLuggy


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 07:00 GMT 
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Sluggy wrote:
THC is a good song, but I already knew that Bob has lots of woman troubles.

You know what they say about opinions... Enjoying this thread!

Cheers, SLuggy



This didn't register with me until a short while ago...

But do you think "woman troubles" is all that the song is about?

True...woman troubles is a large part of it, but it's always hit me on a much deeper level than that.

Just the "I used to care..." refrain says a lot. Not just about Bob, but about most people, I think, as they advance through life. Ditto "lot of water under the bridge, lot of other stuff, too."

That's part of what it made it such a great song.

Again, IMHO. :)


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 07:19 GMT 
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i don't think it is, no. plenty of Love and Theft is truly great and Nettie Moore too.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 07:37 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Am I the only one out there that dreads Floater?


No. A boring song, typical of everything that's wrong with Bob's flirtation with crooner-type songs.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 07:41 GMT 
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Location: ..right behind the living - just in front of the dead.
..Hey! - 'My Grandfather was a Duck-Trapper' too, so ...... 8)
But i respect your right to be .................wrong. .. :D


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 07:45 GMT 
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Grumpy-the-Buick wrote:
..Hey! - 'My Grandfather was a Duck-Trapper' too

Good for you! Any good duck-trapping stories to tell?


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 07:51 GMT 
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tellmemomma1966 wrote:
i don't think it is, no. plenty of Love and Theft is truly great and Nettie Moore too.



There are some very good songs on L&T--High Water, Po'Boy, Floater, and Moonlight, which I'm really surprised no has put forward yet. Beautiful song. But...and I say this to you as gently as possible....Nettie Moore is annoyng as all hell with that nonstop thumping througout that makes you want hit something just to change the beat. I think it could be worse than Ain't Talkin. Although it may sound sweet to you, I assure you, it's not everyone's cup of tea.

As much as I like L&T as a cohesive album, I think there's only song that's as good as THA, and that's Mississippi, which was disqualified because it was recorded for the TOOM sessions.

If you like, you can try our in-home experiment, described below:

Quote:
Find a friend, relative, spouse, etc., who doesn't LOVE Dylan. (They don't necessarily have to hate him, just not be as biased as you are.)

Ask them if they can spare a few minutes, and then play them your favorite post-2000 Bob track, and then play them the studio version of Things Have Changed, and ask them which is the better song.

You will be surprised. I promise you.


Let us know how you make out. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 08:36 GMT 
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P.Jekk wrote:
Grumpy-the-Buick wrote:
..Hey! - 'My Grandfather was a Duck-Trapper' too

Good for you! Any good duck-trapping stories to tell?

..Well - we would always go down to one of the ponds or smaller lakes
real early and lay out the nets - He only wanted a couple of Wood Ducks*
at a time - and to tell you the truth, i don't think he ever ate one - we ate
mallards or teal .. But we'd take corn and put it out - then either get hidden
or sneak back down in the evening - this wasn't much like what they do now
- Not in the experience of it anyway,** but .. We'd have to wait quiet for a good
long while... Then he almost always let me try pulling on this long pole in order
to set the net - but only once. :D .. If i missed - that was that, and he took
over then... It was great.
.. My 'Grandfather' couldn't talk - he had a stroke.. but once he sort of forgot
or mentally subconsciously got around it or something - no one knows how
exactly it happened, but we came back from town and my 'Grandmother' had
bought me some boots, and when we got up next to the tool shed, i got out
of the truck and said, 'Hey! Grandpa - Look at my boots!' .. and to everyone's
surprise, he said - 'Well, i'll be Gol-Darned.' - He got a real strange look on his
face, and walked on down the lane. No one ever asked him about it - he wasn't
that kind of man - if he wanted to let you know somethin' - he would. Nothing
was ever said about it. i was told those were the only words anyone ever heard
him say after his stroke 'till the day he died. .. 8)
* ..He said Wood Ducks were Special - different in a way i'd have to figure out.
..Hey! Tune in next week and we'll talk about live-trapping Gophers
..
:D
** - 'Things Have Changed'.....


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 08:52 GMT 
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Funny thing I thought about it couple of days ago. But no, 'Love & Theft' proves me wrong.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 09:29 GMT 
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mrdeejay wrote:
tellmemomma1966 wrote:
i don't think it is, no. plenty of Love and Theft is truly great and Nettie Moore too.



There are some very good songs on L&T--High Water, Po'Boy, Floater, and Moonlight, which I'm really surprised no has put forward yet. Beautiful song. But...and I say this to you as gently as possible....Nettie Moore is annoyng as all hell with that nonstop thumping througout that makes you want hit something just to change the beat. I think it could be worse than Ain't Talkin. Although it may sound sweet to you, I assure you, it's not everyone's cup of tea.

As much as I like L&T as a cohesive album, I think there's only song that's as good as THA, and that's Mississippi, which was disqualified because it was recorded for the TOOM sessions.

If you like, you can try our in-home experiment, described below:

Quote:
Find a friend, relative, spouse, etc., who doesn't LOVE Dylan. (They don't necessarily have to hate him, just not be as biased as you are.)

Ask them if they can spare a few minutes, and then play them your favorite post-2000 Bob track, and then play them the studio version of Things Have Changed, and ask them which is the better song.

You will be surprised. I promise you.


Let us know how you make out. Thanks!


i made a mixtape for my mum (non dylan fan, likes classical music and barbara streisand) of latter-day dylan stuff, and her favourites were Nettie Moore, Feel a Change Comin' On, Moonlight and Mississippi. Things have changed was on it. Oh another favourite was the Byron Bay 2011 version of Change My Way Of Thinking.

just cause you think it makes sense doesn't mean everybody will agree. this is ok. i think it's a great song but there have been other great songs since. deciding what his last "great" song was is a bit meaningless anyway in my opinion...it's just about whatever you like the most. If i like Ain't Talking and Nettie Moore as much as Things Have Changed, there ain't nothin' wrong with that.

i suppose now you will say "but ask them which is the better song like that's somehow different from asking which one they like more. a song is the words and the music and the performance of those two together. if you like one song more than another one, how could you not think it's better?


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 09:54 GMT 
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P.Jekk wrote:
Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Am I the only one out there that dreads Floater?


No. A boring song, typical of everything that's wrong with Bob's flirtation with crooner-type songs.



I must say I definitely agree with this last statement


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 13:53 GMT 
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I must say I don't, Floater is a fantastic song. So is Things Have Changed, so are a bunch of others from recent years.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 14:07 GMT 

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This Dream of You is right up there with the great songs.
It possesses something that THC does not: a transcendant mystical quality as
well as being a beautifully crafted and realised song.

The most remarkable thing about this thread so far is that no one has made
a wisecrack about CITH.

So let me be the first: I think he did something truly special with
Christmas Island, and I'd pit that against any of his covers.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 14:43 GMT 
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smoke wrote:
I must say I don't, Floater is a fantastic song.

And now you, Smokie.
Well I told Slug & UPath that I'd do some homework on this one. I really, really want to pull it out of the Spirit On the Water/Moolight?All the Tired Horses category. But I just can't do it. I so, so, so want to be convinced that these are listenable. In all honesty, I had to go to Prague '95 God Knows and Bangor '11 Hollis Brown to get some relief. I will keep trying and I appreciate the encouragement as well as Ransom's helpful links!


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 14:59 GMT 
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mrdeejay...to answer your question...do I think Dylan has released any great songs in the past decade? Not many....that stand on their own, as being great...although there have been many extremely good ones. I assume it would depend on how lofty you categorize reaching greatness. To me, it means you're hitting rarified air. Some of Bob's songs in the last decade or so...are great on occasion. Nettie Moore is only average to me on the album...but I've heard it a number of times live... where the performance elevated it to greatness. Boston, a few years back, comes to mind. It was so stunning, it felt like time stopped. I saw one post touting Forgetful Heart. That's another song that in the studio, is only average...but some of the early live performances were stunning. Still, there's can be a difference between performing a song beautifully, and obtaining greatness. So, I don't consider it a great song...despite some wonderful performances.I glanced at a few posters going back and forth on the merits of Floater. In the theme of the album, it's possible to consider it great. It is very rich in detail, images, and atmosphere. But take it away from that particular group of songs...and it's a step above average.

Hucks Tune? No. Cross the Green Mountain? No...but a very good song. Mississipi? Probably great. High Water? No. Although I've heard some wickedly good live performances of it...where the true menace of the song comes to life. Po' Boy? Absolutely not. It's another song that is elevated by the theme of the album, and work surrounding it. Taken on its own..it barely above average. Ain't Talkin' is possibly Dylan's greatest song of the decade...simply because of the depth of the lyric. It's a cohesive story drawn from the bible, with very rich images. Dylan hasn't delved into a song of this nature since the 60's. And he gives it the required tender vocal treatment. To fully understand it...it demands your attention, like many of Bob's finest works. The filp side is that it can be tedious. It's not a song I can listen to often. But I feel that way with a number of Dylans lengthy "masterpieces." So, in my eyes, that doesn't detract from the quality of the song. As for Things Have Changed...I pretty much agree with your assessment...except possibly your comment regarding narrative depth... and positively disagree about it being "some of his best lyrics of the past 30 years." It's a good song. Not a great one.


Last edited by wineman on Sun October 2nd, 2011, 15:21 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 15:18 GMT 
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Quote:
We're like elder statesmen here.


So let's see, 2004? So in Bob time, that's like showing up for the last 15%.
Sorry, couldn't let that one go by...the tears on my cheeks are from laughter.
Again, I appreciate you.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 18:32 GMT 
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tellmemomma1966 wrote:
i made a mixtape for my mum (non dylan fan, likes classical music and barbara streisand) of latter-day dylan stuff, and her favourites were Nettie Moore, Feel a Change Comin' On, Moonlight and Mississippi. Things have changed was on it. Oh another favourite was the Byron Bay 2011 version of Change My Way Of Thinking.

just cause you think it makes sense doesn't mean everybody will agree. this is ok. i think it's a great song but there have been other great songs since. deciding what his last "great" song was is a bit meaningless anyway in my opinion...it's just about whatever you like the most. If i like Ain't Talking and Nettie Moore as much as Things Have Changed, there ain't nothin' wrong with that.

i suppose now you will say "but ask them which is the better song like that's somehow different from asking which one they like more. a song is the words and the music and the performance of those two together. if you like one song more than another one, how could you not think it's better?



No. I'm not going to say that. Your mum is entitled to her opinion--as are you. I'll never understand it, or agree with it. But that's fine.

I'm not on any kind of crusade here. I firmly believe Things Have Changed is his last great song (not the most meaningful, poignant, melodic, beautiful, etc. ad nauseum), but I could care less about convincing you or anyone else. My "test" was intended as nothing more than a light-hearted suggestion. I've enjoyed some of the back and forth here as well. But many of you are clearly insane! :)

P.S. When I said "last" I meant it as his last great song thus far. Although I don't think Bob has the same spark he did 40 years ago (who among us does?), he's clearly still capable of surprising us. I honestly thought he was spent after Modern Times, but I liked Together Through Life very much. Don't know how many great songs he may have left inside him...but hope springs eternal!

Ciao for now.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 18:37 GMT 
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:) i wasn't digging, just jabbing

it's my favourite of his most recent period of songs, if that means anything. it has a real punch. but there are other truly, truly fantastic songs on the last few albums.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 19:23 GMT 

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I like the new live version of Things Have Changed. The beat is fast like you're at church with people jumpin' around. That's the first thing I thought of when I heard the new arrangement. The next thought I had was that it sounded like a car running down the highway at 90 mph with no driver and the beat is the car bumping along on the highway, sorta like the car in the video that seems to be going nowhere real fast. Thankfully Bob and The Boys know how to shut 'er down when the song has run it's course.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 19:35 GMT 
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[quote="takeitdowntohwy61"]I like the new live version of Things Have Changed. The beat is fast like you're at church with people jumpin' around. That's the first thing I thought of when I heard the new arrangement. quote]
What church are we talkin' about here?


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 19:45 GMT 

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Sadly, I have to agree with the opening post. What's saved his last few albums however is that, unlike the mid 80s, he's in touch with the traditional music that he handles so well. So even when he's not great, the music still has depth and substance to it. But great songs? Alas no, not since I heard Mississippi on L&T, which as you say pre-dates THC.

He seems to write worthwhile but not spectacular music these days, but even if he keeps going in the same direction then I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of another classic coming along.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 20:27 GMT 

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By the way MrDeeJay, what do you make of Huck's tune? Very good melody and some really nice lines. For me, it's the closest he's come to a great song in recent times.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 20:36 GMT 
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watch this, everybody:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYTxP4LR ... re=related

and the performance of the song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwPwJbAD ... D65EC4B7EF


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 21:28 GMT 
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tellmemomma1966 wrote:


Good god, that was wonderful to watch, thanks!


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