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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 00:49 GMT 
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Giuseppe Gazerro wrote:
as much as I'm not a big fan of post-NET Bob, this is still an absurd statement.

Apart from Things Have Changed (not even in Dylan's new millennium top 10, in my opinion), there are, to say the least:

Mississippi
Workingman's Blues
Cross The Green Mountain
Ain't Talkin'

which are without any shadow of a doubt, great songs.
masterpieces, I'd say.


Exactly.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 01:10 GMT 

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I'm going to stick my head out and say Floater is a better song.

The character Bob inhabits is described beautifully by his thoughts and actions. I can picture an older man, probably with little formal education but plenty of life experience living in a shack near the river in the 1930s, matching the music perfectly.

And as for THC not having any clunkers :
"Feel like falling in love with the first woman I meet, puttin' her in a wheelbarrow and wheeling her down the street"
"Miss Jinx and Miss Lucy jumped in a lake, I'm not that eager to make a mistake"

Oh, and I'm a musician too. And in my opinion, the music of Floater (and yes, it has those nifty changes and bridges you're so fond of) pisses over THC. Sure, Floater doesn't have the drive of THC, but it's not supposed to.

Cheers, SLuggy


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 01:42 GMT 
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Quote:
I'm going to stick my head out and say Floater is a better song.


Are you serious? I usually stick my fingers down my throat when that's played. I need to give it another chance, I guess. Can someone please point to a version of this tune that is worth listening to?


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 01:45 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Quote:
I'm going to stick my head out and say Floater is a better song.


Are you serious? I usually stick my fingers down my throat when that's played. I need to give it another chance, I guess. Can someone please point to a version of this tune that is worth listening to?
NOLA Jazz Festival, April 26, 2003 is a great performance. Always brings a smile. The concert itself may be the greatest live show in human history... but that's not what you were asking for.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 01:57 GMT 
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Quote:
NOLA Jazz Festival, April 26, 2003


link?


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 02:06 GMT 
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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Quote:
NOLA Jazz Festival, April 26, 2003
link?
Code:
http://www.mediafire.com/?wdbsc5fh9xz0d85
http://www.mediafire.com/?kin08kwxxjbyvrd


UP, I've seen you express your love for this many times on ER, and it doesn't really strike me as anything special ... what makes it so great?


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 02:11 GMT 
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Thanks Ransom. I'll give it a shot and let you know if I concur with the love going around.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 02:16 GMT 

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Still Go Barefoot wrote:
Quote:
I'm going to stick my head out and say Floater is a better song.


Are you serious? I usually stick my fingers down my throat when that's played. I need to give it another chance, I guess. Can someone please point to a version of this tune that is worth listening to?


You're damn right I'm serious. You mightn't like the song or the performance, but it sets out to describe a situation, a place in time and a person who inhabits that place (which certainly isn't today) and succeeds brilliantly at that. It's one of those rare songs in Bob's work that could be sung by someone else (preferably in the 'old, strange America') and still be as effective.

The song is a character study, no more, no less. And it's perfect.

Cheers, SLuggy


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 02:58 GMT 
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Quote:
The song is a character study, no more, no less.

OK Slug, this is a good opportunity for me to change my paradigm, step away from my biases and be open-minded. I usually think of Floater as something that is just too much to ask...There's not much Dylan I don't magnetize towards, mind you. Having cringed and beared the teeth-clenching pain of Floater dozens of times live, I will try again. He seems to have dropped it (finally, yes!). I remember smiling after each of the Boston Orpheum shows years ago because he left it out. I don't think I've seen him play it since(?). Anyhow, I will study the lyrics and try to listen to NOLA 2003 and try to change my way of thinkin. Am I the only one out there that dreads Floater?


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 03:18 GMT 
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Learnersrealm wrote:
Everything is subjective. To my ears and brain, Things Have Changed is not only Dylan's best song of the last 15 years but is in one of my top 5 favourites from his greatness.

What I think is the stand out for me in this song apart from the exquisite melody and cool instrumentals, is how this song defines for me how Dylan or anyone for that matter - their world view with age takes an entirely different shift. Once an idealistic ambassador for the folk movement (that could be disputed - for eg, whatever to get him a record deal) - now someone resigned to the fact - he doesn't care and may have never really cared.

It is a stand out single of Dylan's career and most worthy of his oscar which he received the previous night I saw him in Sydney. This song to me is the parting of his younger or even middle aged self. I think it reflects a lot of that carefree kinda - numbness people get when they achieve older age.



Though you are apparently new to these parts, you are obviously wise beyond your post count.

(And don't take any guff from Harry!)

Welcome, friend. :)


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 03:28 GMT 

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Whilst I admire your open mind-in-ness, I'm not sure you'll find a live version (of Floater) that lives up to the studio cut. Maybe lightning only strikes once.

Anyways, if I've maybe lifted this neglected gem from the depths of the deepest dark forest to a position of (muted) respect, I'm happy.

Next episode I'm going to reveal the depths of that searing, all-encompassing masterpiece of corrosive thought from the pen of his Bobness. That's right, 'Jolene'. :lol:

Cheers, SLuggy


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 03:36 GMT 
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Ha, I was thinkin you were heading toward Moonlight.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 04:23 GMT 
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mrdeejay wrote:
Yes, I believe it is.

(And "Mississippi" predates it.)


Warning: Anyone suggesting "Nettie Moore" or "Ain't Talking" will be thoroughly ridiculed! :)


I haven't read through this thread...so I may be alone on this, but I don't regard Things Have Changed as a great song on any level. I just don't see how it would qualify. It's certainly a pretty good song....nice melody...decent lyric. Seems to me...great is thrown around way to loosely on this forum. Just my two cents.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 04:46 GMT 

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well..all you experts can argue what song is the *last* great song he's written...but personally, id rather wait for whatever he offers us next. Ive felt extremely spoiled by the generous amounts of albums, books, and yes, art that hes given us in our time.. to think that anyone thinks its the *last* one really makes me sad.. but if its meant in the context of the *latest* song hes written.. then hey, i vote for Forgetful Heart. 8)


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 04:54 GMT 
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wineman wrote:
mrdeejay wrote:
Yes, I believe it is.

(And "Mississippi" predates it.)


Warning: Anyone suggesting "Nettie Moore" or "Ain't Talking" will be thoroughly ridiculed! :)


I haven't read through this thread...so I may be alone on this, but I don't regard Things Have Changed as a great song on any level. I just don't see how it would qualify. It's certainly a pretty good song....nice melody...decent lyric. Seems to me...great is thrown around way to loosely on this forum. Just my two cents.


IMHO, it has a great groove, a catchy melody, a terrific hook, narrative depth, and some of the best lyrics he's written in the last 30 years--it even displays a few touches of humor, which had been absent from his work for all too long (e.g., "putting her in a wheelbarrow and wheeling her down the street" which someone else here actually thought was weak!). Finally, the whole "60 seconds" thing is totally mind-blowing. (How did he do that?)

I don't know...I'm hard-pressed to come up with anything that can rival it, although there have been a few notable suggestions so far ("High Water" and "Po' Boy).

Is there any Dylan song released in the last decade or so that you would say qualifies as "great?"


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:08 GMT 

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Oh, how did I get involved in this thread? :roll:

'Ain't Talking' was bagged earlier on. If you take the mystic garden to be the Garden of Eden, the final verse that indicates that the gardener (ie God) has gone is horrifying in it's import. This verse alone raises Ain't Talking to greatness.

Cheers, SLuggy


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:20 GMT 

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Floater doesn't count because he took the melody almost note for note from a song called "Snuggled on Your Shoulder". Regardless of what one makes of his "thefts", if he didn't write the melody, he doesn't get credit for the song.

Other recent songs for which Dylan lifted an older melody note-for-note:

Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum
Summer Days
Bye and Bye
Sugar Baby (except for the refrain)
Beyond the Horizon
Tell Ol' Bill (the original, not the outtake)


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:22 GMT 
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Sluggy wrote:
Oh, how did I get involved in this thread? :roll:

'Ain't Talking' was bagged earlier on. If you take the mystic garden to be the Garden of Eden, the final verse that indicates that the gardener (ie God) has gone is horrifying in it's import. This verse alone raises Ain't Talking to greatness.

Cheers, SLuggy



Never mind that the song is as dull as all get-out. It's great on account of what you read into one line?

(And yet, you think the "wheelbarrow" line in THC is a clunker???)

Ok.

Whatever works for you, man. I guess. :)


Last edited by mrdeejay on Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:23 GMT, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:23 GMT 

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mrdeejay wrote:
toilandblood546 wrote:
I think Po' Boy is better. Not only does it fulfill your criterion of having different parts, but it is also one of the more complicated progressions in Bob's canon (which admittedly isn't very varied purely in terms of the chord patterns he uses). That being said, if you played out only the melody notes of Things Have Changed and then Po' Boy, I think the latter would sound better in pure musical terms.



After some careful A-B'ing of both songs, I've decided I'm sticking with THC.

The reasons are for what I think a lot of you are missing--and which, as hardcore Dylan fans, many overlook.

I'm not referring to power, majesty, emotional impact, pathos, irony, "making a statement," what's best for Bob, or any of the other charateristics you all seem to put so much stock in. I'm looking at it as A SONG!

Po' Boy gave me some food for thought, I admit.

And High Water is a powerful piece, indeed, with some of Bob's best lyric writing since the 70's. He also turns in a consistently powerful performance of the song live. (Ain't Talkin' fails on all counts, however, unless you're just shooting for a depressive state.)

Ultimately, however, the measure of a song is different from what happens to strike your fancy. For all its attributes, Po' Boy, IMHO (for those of you who need that), draws too heavily on its 1920's and 1930's influences, whereas Things Have Changed always sounds undeniably fresh and unmistakably Bob.

The debate goes on. :)



You argue that Po' boy has too much of a 1930's quality, but I argue that Things Have Changed is nothing more than a minor blues in the vain of Black Magic Woman. It's not a bad melody, but it's hardly original. It's also fairly repetitive and does not offer any of the tonal range displayed in Po' boy.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:23 GMT 

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toilandblood546 wrote:
Floater doesn't count because he took the melody almost note for note from a song called "Snuggled on Your Shoulder". Regardless of what one makes of his "thefts", if he didn't write the melody, he doesn't get credit for the song.


Wow. So Clinton Heylin got you, huh?

Cheers, SLuggy


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:27 GMT 

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mrdeejay wrote:
Sluggy wrote:
Oh, how did I get involved in this thread? :roll:

'Ain't Talking' was bagged earlier on. If you take the mystic garden to be the Garden of Eden, the final verse that indicates that the gardener (ie God) has gone is horrifying in it's import. This verse alone raises Ain't Talking to greatness.

Cheers, SLuggy



Never mind that the song is as dull as all get-out. It's great on account of what you read into one line?

(And yet, you think the "wheelbarrow" line in THC is a clunker???)

Ok.

Whatever works for you, man. I guess. :)


That one line puts all that came before it into context. The character's journey has been based on the Big G awaiting his return, and upon the character's return he finds that God has deserted him. Wow.

THC is a good song, but I already knew that Bob has lots of woman troubles.

You know what they say about opinions... Enjoying this thread!

Cheers, SLuggy


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:29 GMT 

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One thing I'll say about THC. Bob certainly looks cool eating that sandwich in the film clip.

Cheers, SLuggy


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:30 GMT 

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Sluggy wrote:
toilandblood546 wrote:
Floater doesn't count because he took the melody almost note for note from a song called "Snuggled on Your Shoulder". Regardless of what one makes of his "thefts", if he didn't write the melody, he doesn't get credit for the song.


Wow. So Clinton Heylin got you, huh?

Cheers, SLuggy


If the question is asking about both music and lyrics, which this one is, then it is disingenuous to give Dylan credit for rewriting new lyrics to an old melody. That doesn't mean Floater isn't a great song, but Dylan is not the sole songwriter.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:32 GMT 

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Bob's the sole credit on Subterranean Homesick Blues as well. I wonder if Chuck Berry is amused.

Cheers, SLuggy

-edit - we joined up within 6 days of each other. We're like elder statesmen here.


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PostPosted: Sun October 2nd, 2011, 05:35 GMT 
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toilandblood546 wrote:

You argue that Po' boy has too much of a 1930's quality, but I argue that Things Have Changed is nothing more than a minor blues in the vain of Black Magic Woman. It's not a bad melody, but it's hardly original. It's also fairly repetitive and does not offer any of the tonal range displayed in Po' boy.



You're right. It is basically a very simple blues progression, but he makes it work incredibly well (and the use of the IV chord borders on the magical). Although Po' Boy is more structurally complex overall, I have nothing against simplicity--especially when it succeeds, as I think it does in the case of THC.

As I noted not too far above, I believe the song also has a lot of other things in its favor. Especially the groove--which, again IMHO, can't be underestimated in determining a song's value--and which I think is somewhat lacking in Po' Boy.

Still, I do like Po' Boy an awful lot (and High Water, too).


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